Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
10,005
Arena was awesome, most fun ive had with an elder scrolls, ever. And i played it on 2006.

Then i played daggerfall, bugged up the ass but a step forward in many ways.

Then it came morrowind, with vastly improved graphics and blah blah blah, you know the rest.

Then oblivion, a step back in so many ways, but graphics looked prettier (except the area around people faces, how do you fuck that up so much?) and it was a good time waster with mods, without them i deemed it unplayable, oscuros mod made it fun, sorta, with so little to play at the time it was all i had.

Then came dragonattack: a watered down version of morrowind, good thing is that its constantly being modded to improve on it (yes, its up to people with free time on their hands to make a game you bought playable and fun...), it has a good future and its good enough, i guess. There are subtle signs of some faggot at beth actually getting it right, but trying to desperately cover his tracks so that their bosses and most players dont realize that the game has a little bit of depth on it, god forbid a console tard having to actually use their head.

Thats how i see it anyway.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Arena was awesome, most fun ive had with an elder scrolls, ever. And i played it on 2006.

Then i played daggerfall, bugged up the ass but a step forward in many ways.

Then it came morrowind, with vastly improved graphics and blah blah blah, you know the rest.

Then oblivion, a step back in so many ways, but graphics looked prettier (except the area around people faces, how do you fuck that up so much?) and it was a good time waster with mods, without them i deemed it unplayable, oscuros mod made it fun, sorta, with so little to play at the time it was all i had.

Then came dragonattack: a watered down version of morrowind, good thing is that its constantly being modded to improve on it (yes, its up to people with free time on their hands to make a game you bought playable and fun...), it has a good future and its good enough, i guess. There are subtle signs of some faggot at beth actually getting it right, but trying to desperately cover his tracks so that their bosses and most players dont realize that the game has a little bit of depth on it, god forbid a console tard having to actually use their head.

Thats how i see it anyway.


Similar impressions.

I played Arena when it was released. For its time, it was amazing in look, play, character development, depth, etc...

Daggerfall was as you said, an improvement in many ways. I personally thought the extensive generated content to be... cumbersome and tiring after awhile though. It was buggy beyond belief, but... it was enjoyable in many ways and still had the depth of character development and interaction.

Morrowind was the start of "streamlining" in terms of character development (they got rid of a lot of skills), but it wasn't a game breaker for me (keep in mind I am saying this from a perspective that primarily plays games for complex character development options). The world obviously was smaller, but... it really was a new direction in terms of feel. It had a very artistic measure to it and I think that provided an authentic charm to the game. The quests were varied in focus, interesting in their dialogue and interaction. The exploration aspects were well done and danger of the world was very real. It really felt like a single player MMO where you could spend hundreds of hours exploring and interacting. Mods fixed most problems from the initial release and expanded the game to amazing new levels. In many ways, I think this is one of the best of their series, but only because of its accessible modability.

Oblivion. Well, this one I hated with an extreme passion on initial release. They appeared to streamline just about everything in the game. No skill, quest mechanic, combat mechanic, etc... was left unmolested. The dialogue was horrible, the constant quest helper text was insulting (seriously, did anyone feel like you were a blithering idiot on the mage quest where it handheld you to ridiculous levels?). The instant travel made a large world feel as if it was in a small box. The world dungeons were "ok", but the Daedric dungeons were obviously phoned in.

The combat combined with their idiotic "safe level" feature was terrible. I remember killing mobs with MMO tactics kiting them around with a bow that I only had a skill of 1 in. That was insulting and an obvious sign they were dumbing the game down in terms of character development. While I thought the whole NPC system was interesting, it created major problems on release. Also, this is where they stepped into an obvious "tardsoling" the game. Axes as blunts? REALLY? It was an obvious sign of them trying to streamline their skill system to reduce time and effort into the development of the game, likely due to a need to appeal to the console market.

Anyway, the game was crap on release, horrible. The only thing that saved this game was the mods and... well... they did a superb job of taking a title that was fast marketed to idiots on consoles and created something new. FCOM mod (culmination of 3-4 major overhauls and other various mod additions) actually brought back Oblivion from its complete stupidity. While I think it is debatable whether Morrowind fully modded vs Oblivion is better or not (I prefer Morrowind personally), the modding community did help save the game from its designers.

Skyrim.

Himm... complete garbage. If you look at the loss of skills due to streamlining from Arena up to now, well... Skyrim is just an action exploration movie game. Character development is pointless, non-existent, lacking any intelligence in its pursuit and as some have said, the quest/dialog, etc... is just... well.. it is like trying to say pornographic movies are rich intellectual experiences. This game was a console game, period. It is obvious in every possible way. Skyrim has a major problem though. Because they completely stripped the complexity of the systems out of the game by designing it first and foremost for tardsole, the modding community is extremely limited in what they can do to fix the most damaging problems of the game (its development system). That is, mods can not save this game, it is junk, will always be junk that rates right up there with Dragon Age 2 and Dead Island. There is no hope for it other than for people to fix/create better dialog and quest focuses. The core system just can't be salvaged.

Sad to see a genre of this level not simply fall from grace, but dive into the toilet after a binge at the seedy back alley mexican restaurant. Skyrim is a perfect example of how gaming has been destroyed to cater to a certain crowd that simply wants cheap movie like entertainment.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
10,005
Skyrim.

Himm... complete garbage. If you look at the loss of skills due to streamlining from Arena up to now, well... Skyrim is just an action exploration movie game. Character development is pointless, non-existent, lacking any intelligence in its pursuit and as some have said, the quest/dialog, etc... is just... well.. it is like trying to say pornographic movies are rich intellectual experiences. This game was a console game, period. It is obvious in every possible way. Skyrim has a major problem though. Because they completely stripped the complexity of the systems out of the game by designing it first and foremost for tardsole, the modding community is extremely limited in what they can do to fix the most damaging problems of the game (its development system). That is, mods can not save this game, it is junk, will always be junk that rates right up there with Dragon Age 2 and Dead Island. There is no hope for it other than for people to fix/create better dialog and quest focuses. The core system just can't be salvaged.

Sad to see a genre of this level not simply fall from grace, but dive into the toilet after a binge at the seedy back alley mexican restaurant. Skyrim is a perfect example of how gaming has been destroyed to cater to a certain crowd that simply wants cheap movie like entertainment.
I believe mods can salvaje this game, it just takes a huge amount of effort to do so, luckly a lot of people are willing to do it.

Vjilia is an example of this. While the companion in itself is not to my taste, it does add a layer of depth to the whole thing and shows what can be done.
Skyre does a very good job at making everything actually somewhat fun and challenging while keeping it fair.

My conclusion is this: Skyrim fully modded has potential to be a filler inbetween actual RPGs. much like oblivion.

You havent seen how bad can player generated content tools get till you try neverwinter online.
 

markec

Twitterbot
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
51,792
Location
Croatia
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Dead State Project: Eternity Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
If you want to play TES game for combat then play Battlespire, not because combat is much more refined there but its the only TES game thats actually challenging.
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,617
Codex 2013
Oblivion simply was horrible. Not even mods could successfully salvage the game, unless the mods were total overhauls that scrapped Bethesda's entire game world, such as Nehrim.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Oh, I played for about ten to twenty hours before I gave up. It's definitely horrible I was just responding to the guy praising how good it looked. I'm not talking about graphics technology it just flat out looked horrible. Worse than Morrowind comparatively speaking for their respective levels of capability.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,889
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Sad to see a genre of this level not simply fall from grace, but dive into the toilet after a binge at the seedy back alley mexican restaurant. Skyrim is a perfect example of how gaming has been destroyed to cater to a certain crowd that simply wants cheap movie like entertainment.


Gaming never was sophisticated entertainment to begin with. Check your aspergers privilege.
 

Bahamut

Arcane
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,196
Oblivion simply was horrible. Not even mods could successfully salvage the game, unless the mods were total overhauls that scrapped Bethesda's entire game world, such as Nehrim.

Dont helps eighter, every time i see a NPC it reminds me
down_in_number_5.jpg
 

markec

Twitterbot
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
51,792
Location
Croatia
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Dead State Project: Eternity Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
If you want to play TES game for combat then play Battlespire, not because combat is much more refined there but its the only TES game thats actually challenging.
Depends on the build.

Well if you make a shitty build any RPG can be difficult. On the other hand no matter how cheesy build you make in Battlespire the game will still be challenging.
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Argonians earned some mad respect from me according to Skyrim lore. Daedra invade? Argonians flood back to the Black Marsh and proceed to swarm every Oblivion Gate, killing and stealing and wreaking havoc until Dagon realizes how stupid this has become and leaves them alone. Then they boot out the Empire and proceed to jump up and down on the collective heads of the Dunmer. Argonians took a level in badass while Bethesda homogenized the Bosmer.
Argonians were always pretty badass. Experts in guerilla tactics. Theirs was the only province other than Morrowind that wasn't actually conquered by the Empire (and unlike Dunmer they had no Big Stompy Mecha to bargain with), their home province was notable for being remarkably good at killing off the explorers with myriads different diseases and poisons in addition to wildlife and such.

Then they understandably stuck their collective scaly foot up Dunmer's collective ass as soon as the opportunity arose as was prophesied due to Vivec being a bag of dongs.

Then came dragonattack: a watered down version of morrowind, good thing is that its constantly being modded to improve on it (yes, its up to people with free time on their hands to make a game you bought playable and fun...), it has a good future and its good enough, i guess. There are subtle signs of some faggot at beth actually getting it right, but trying to desperately cover his tracks so that their bosses and most players dont realize that the game has a little bit of depth on it, god forbid a console tard having to actually use their head.

Thats how i see it anyway.

That's an apt description of Skyrim actually.

Skyrim is a perfect example of how gaming has been destroyed to cater to a certain crowd that simply wants cheap movie like entertainment.
Actually no, since Skyrim, despite mechanical dumbing down is still a massive improvement over and backtracking from oblivion.
It has actual worldbuilding, for example.

True, loss of attributes, no chargen, reduced number of skills and further trimmed down magic systems are a fucking shame, but neither attribs nor spellmaker are a prerequisite of an RPG, and Skyrim did introduce two worthwhile things to TES character building - perks and having to choose direction of your growth. Paradoxically Skyrim also has no less spellmaker than Oblivion, if only because simultaneous application of effects rendered Oblivion's spellmaker pointless (as compared to Morrowind), while in Skyrim you can quickly apply any two effects of your choice in desired order by wielding two different spells which makes it a crude surrogate of spellmaker.

Plus, it *can* be modded into servicability (with little effort, Requiem is the only mod you *truly* need) making it at worst rather interesting H&S actually set in TES universe as opposed to a bag of turds paying only a nominal lip-service to the series (oblivion).
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,889
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Then they understandably stuck their collective scaly foot up Dunmer's collective ass as soon as the opportunity arose as was prophesied due to Vivec being a bag of dongs.

Speaking of Vivec's superdickery: the asteroid that turned Vivecville into a smoldering crater wasn't completely stopped in time (i.e., invulnerable), as it was hollowed out by the guys in charge of turning it into the Ministry of Truth. Once Vivec disappeared, it doesn't immediately continue falling, either - according to the timeline at UESP, it actually stays afloat for a few years after the events of Oblivion. Is there any reason they didn't just immediately destroy the rock?
 
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
3,749
Location
Moo?
I imagine because they were in denial up until the very moment of impact. "Vivec and Amalexia are just off resting and doing godly things...yeah, that's it."

If the Nerevarine himself telling you that Amalexia went crazy and had to be put down isn't enough, nothing short of Daedric meteor-induced apocalypse is going to snap you back to reality. It didn't help the Tribunal were known for wandering off every once in awhile to take care of business and leaving little word.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
The drop in attributes from Oblivion to Skyrim doesn't really matter. Derpblivion killed off the meaningfulness of most attributes and corresponding skills (anyway, even in Morrowind attributes were just a function of skills). Skyrim just cut out useless/superfluous shit and even then there are quite a few awful skill trees (all of Speechcraft and all of lockpicking for example). Things cut from Derpblivion:
  • Athletics: Movement speed shouldn't be a skill/trait in a first person based RPG. Only led to more tedious travel.
  • Blunt/Blade: Weapon distinctions made more sense with Morrowind's combat but not so much with Oblivion/Skyrim.
  • Hand-to-Hand: Pointless unless you want to E-LARP a monk.
  • Acrobatics: Same reason as Athletics. Jump height is almost entirely irrelevant in these type of games.
  • Mercantile: They got rid of speech checks and made nearly all of the Speech tree the new Mercantile. And while they essentially abandoned speech checks in Skyrim the wheel in Oblivion was horrible.
  • Mysticism: Semantics. They just moved the spells into other schools of magic.
 
Last edited:

Utgard-Loki

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
1,926
Speaking of Vivec's superdickery: the asteroid that turned Vivecville into a smoldering crater wasn't completely stopped in time (i.e., invulnerable), as it was hollowed out by the guys in charge of turning it into the Ministry of Truth. Once Vivec disappeared, it doesn't immediately continue falling, either - according to the timeline at UESP, it actually stays afloat for a few years after the events of Oblivion. Is there any reason they didn't just immediately destroy the rock?
if they didn't stop loving vivec (and by extension: themselves) this wouldn't even have happened. also maybe they didn't take his "as long as you love me" shtick seriously. and then again: how would you remove a giant turdbaby from the sky?
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,889
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
With the same pickaxes they used to make holes into it and build cells inside. Just keep whacking it until it turns into a floating pile of dust. :M

Plus, I suspect the whole "as long as you love me" thing was bullshit he made up so it wouldn't sound like Big V was holding everyone hostage with that thing (it's a gentler way of saying "Don't try anything funny, and no one has to get hurt"). But as soon as he's out of the picture, the spell he used to keep it afloat starts weakening and it kills everythingt. He's the one responsible for keeping it there, not the dunmer's power of friendship.

Acrobatics: Same reason as Athletics. Jump height is almost entirely irrelevant in these type of games.

Like with waterwalking and levitation, it helps you get to safer areas and evade enemies. The real problem is that you're the only person in the world capable of that.
 
Last edited:

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
I think levitation actually served a purpose in that it allowed for creative dungeon/world design in Morrowind. Make no mistake, they removed it to make their jobs easier.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
What about sneak? Nobody else can do 2x dmg sneak attacks like the protag.
And not sure if anyone notice this before, as long as you can interact with the item, it's always possible to steal it without getting caught because Skyrim's definition of stealing is putting it in your inventory - if you're just dragging the item around, it's not stealing.

:M
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,889
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
That's why they make merchants follow you around the store. Of course, it's relatively easy to cockblock them (the easier way being :balance:, before it was patched out) and rob in peace, but eh.

Also - in Morrowind, merchants don't see anything weird with items floating towards that blindspot in the corner of the room never to be seen again, near that funny customer who insists on staying out of sight for some reason. Doesn't he want to socialize? Fucking n'whas.
 
Last edited:

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
I think levitation actually served a purpose in that it allowed for creative dungeon/world design in Morrowind. Make no mistake, they removed it to make their jobs easier.
It's been said repeatedly it's because Bethesda wanted more detailed/larger cities and the engine couldn't handle them (or maybe more specifically, that many NPCs with full AI) in the regular outdoor areas on the Xbox. Instead they had to cut them up into smaller interior levels, which meant levitation had to go, otherwise it'd reveal that the cities on the overworld are all empty and full of low-poly props.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
10,005
You guys fail to realize the importance of those skills and spells that are no more, they were there to make the world feel more authentic and/or magical. Just by virtue of being there they had value.
Flavor is such an important thing in anything that is RPGish in nature that is amazing how devs cut it out or ignore it altogether.
 

Broseph

Dangerous JB
Patron
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
4,450
Location
Globohomo Gayplex
I think levitation actually served a purpose in that it allowed for creative dungeon/world design in Morrowind. Make no mistake, they removed it to make their jobs easier.
It's been said repeatedly it's because Bethesda wanted more detailed/larger cities and the engine couldn't handle them (or maybe more specifically, that many NPCs with full AI) in the regular outdoor areas on the Xbox. Instead they had to cut them up into smaller interior levels, which meant levitation had to go, otherwise it'd reveal that the cities on the overworld are all empty and full of low-poly props.
There's no reason why they couldn't have put a loading screen transitioning you into the city when you walk into the area via levitation. It's like Metro said, laziness. A lot of Morrowind dungeons actually had some verticality to them and some interesting secrets to be found, but BSB level design is easier than putting in effort. Thus why the majority of Skyrim dungeons are linear roller coaster rides.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
I'm more annoyed with the worthless 'secondary skills' are having the same perk cost to unlock to the major ones.
Case in point: Speechcraft, Lockpicking, Pickpocketing
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom