SMT: Nocturne

[Deflowerer]

Yes, maybe largely in the West, but even in Japan SMT3 was sort of a black sheep to old-time fans as it was deemed too different. Nocturne (ie all the Lucifer and Amala shit) was inserted in the newer edition to make the story clearer and tie it with the established mythos in SMT1 and SMT2.

 

[aweigh]

japanese "gamers" have declined actually even more than their western counterparts. they are utterly subhuman who only care about fanservice and lolicon or moe style and playing gacha shit on their mobile devices.

there's a reason why there has barely been any JRPG of note the past 10-15 years: japanese gamers don't want good games.

 

[Vorark]

By the way, am I being unreasonable for finding this game one of the best ever even not getting halfway through it?

Nope and it gets even better.

 

[Silva]

What are your favorite demons, be it from a gamey perspective or something else?

I'm fond of Uzume myself. Besides being useful as shit in the point she shows up because of her awesome healing skills, shes also stylish as fuck, like a feminine RAIDEN.

Spoiler

Edit: is there a series spinoff where I can date those demons?

 

[Lutte]

be it from a gamey perspective

Spoiler

Daisoujou, Titania, Mother Harlot are absolute MVP.

or something else?

The king of badass.

Almost makes me want to stop my heresies and join the ranks of crusaders.
Only almost, though.

 

[Nathir]

My favourite demons are pretty much the ones whose art I like the most. Top 4 are probably these:

Spoiler

 

[The Decline]

Spoiler

 

[Silva]

What should I try next, SMT4 or Strange Journey Redux?

I heard base SMT4 has better story/atmosphere, while SMT4:Apocalypse has better gameplay.

 

[deuxhero]

Both are pretty meh. After Nocturne either play Raidou 1 till it gets stale then play the excellent Raidou 2 or play the Digital Devil Saga games in order. That's assuming you don't go all the way back to 1/2 or (if you can read them) If.../Majin Tensei/ect all

 

[lightbane]

It's a shame yeah. Digital Devil Saga after Nocturne is good, although you'll immediately notice the former was made to introduce new players to the MegaTen universe, which is okay but also makes the game weaker. After that, Persona 3 appeared and things went down the drain.

What should I try next, SMT4 or Strange Journey Redux?

After DDS, I say you try Strange Journey, then STM4 until reaching Tokyo (from what I read it's the point where the game invariably becomes very bad), then the Apocalypse expansion.

 

[Nathir]

What should I try next, SMT4 or Strange Journey Redux?

I heard base SMT4 has better story/atmosphere, while SMT4:Apocalypse has better gameplay.

Spoilers:

Strange journey is good, altough it is on the DS so it looks pretty bad. Has probably the best characters for alignment reps in the franchise, with some interesting themes. Gameplay is serviceable, but not as good as in other titles. I haven't played Redux, but from what I saw the story addidtions are either dweeb garbage or edgy bullshit. The game obviously looks better tho. It's also a first person game.

SMT4 is alright, but also bad in a lot of ways. The game goes full VN, there is a lot of dialouge, a lot of characters etc. But it's not really all that good. The story has some intrigue at the start and the atmosphere is ok but it gets boring fast and devolves into dumb bullshit. The characters are very ''anime'' and reduced to a personality quirk. The two alignment reps are very over the top in how they only exist to portray their specific alignment. Iirc there is a female char who is into manga and a bad guy threatens to spoiler a future part and she puts fingers in her ears and goes ''lalala can't hear you''. Post-apocalyptic indeed. That's not to say the story is always bad and dumb, it just lacks something imo. The gameplay is alright but pretty broken. On top of press turn you have ''smirk''. Which makes it so your character will dodge an attack or crit the next attack if you hit a weakness/crit/absorb. Fights go over pretty quickly, and late game you can find yourself get instakilled if you don't have the right demons. Demons here are very defined into tanky ones with low mana, squishy ones with high mana and balanced types. Using squishy ones is basically suicide, unless they reflect/absorb a lot.

Apoopalypse fixes the combat issues and is pretty good as far as gameplay is concerned but it's a pretty garbage game all around. Just take a look at the cover and it tells you all you need to know. It abandons any semblance of being a SMT game and goes for edgy anime bullshit. There are two paths which aren't law and chaos this time but bonds and anarchy. Bonds is a path where you abandon aligning with any of the godly factions and unite with your friends. You basically choose all the dialouge where you listen to them, agree with them or compliment them. It's like Persona lite. It's the standard friendship is power trope from anime. Anarchy is a route where you are an asshole for no reason the whole game, kill your friends and everyone else for no reason other then edgy dweeb bullshit. The game also makes it very clear which is the ''correct'' path and tries to railroad you into it... Oh and if you die you get ressurected right at the spot you died at and continue on... Retarded game that encompasses everything wrong with jap media today.

 

[Silva]

Ouch, you guys make it sound like Nocturne was a rare exception in a series thats pretty shit (or at least mediocre).

And I fired up SMT4 on DS emulator.... and I don't know what to say. 2D sprites for demons, lots of dialogue (apparently good though), first person battles. Weird

 

[Gentle Player]

Strange Journey is superb. Absolutely incredible dungeons, great atmosphere and visuals. Combat not as good Nocturne but decent enough.

 

[Lutte]

Ouch, you guys make it sound like Nocturne was a rare exception in a series thats pretty shit (or at least mediocre).

SMT 1/2 were pretty decent games too. The concept of progression the series pioneered was really unique for the time, and predates stuff like pokemon. They didn't age all too well though. They are very much dungeon crawlery but won't fully satisfy people who are into hardcore crawlers and combat very much lacks the refinements of the latter games.

Nocturne really is an exception when it comes to how much of a "whole package" it is though. Good atmosphere, lack of obnoxious team mates / friends / whatever, thin on amount of dialogue, decent production values and so on. Most other games at least can't provide even one bit of atmosphere because of how animu they go.
I love the Devil Survivor spinoffs for example. Some of the best combat of the series, period. But the story, characters, environments.. everything that's not related to core gameplay mechanics can be called absolute shit. If you're not 100% in for the combat and only care for it those games will leave a bad taste in your mouth. Personally I skipped and skimmed through all dialogue in those games because I couldn't be arsed to care. There were times it was problematic to do due to certain timed events and not knowing stuff I was supposed to know.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah, Nocturne is the apex of the series. Previous games are a lot worse on a mechanical level (basically poor wizardry clones), while later games are still a step or two below Nocturne mechanically while also being, ehh, "modernized". I'd say it's still worth trying both previous and later games to see what you like since lots of them are still quite enjoyable, but there's nothing truly great on the level of Nocturne.

 

[Nathir]

I think Nocturne was a flop as far as sales go, and one of the key members (Okada) left because of it. At that point SMT got basically relegated to being handheld only, while Persona became the new hot shit. If you are looking for a similar expereince as far as production values go you are out of luck. Maybe SMT6 will save us, although judging by Apocalypse it will be edgy bullshit. But hey 3D demons in a SMT game for the first time since 2003? Can't complain about that.

 

[Silva]

Perhaps it didn't hold much appeal to the Jap public? Don't know, maybe this Hindu-pocalypse setting that feels so evocative for us is boring to them?

Anyone know how SMT3 is seen in Japan? Better or worse than the rest of series?

 

[Silva]

Fuck, the 3 fates in the obelisk must be defeated in sucession...

 

[Tse Tse Fly]

So from what point the game actually becomes interesting? What's the meat of it? I played maybe 10 hours of it and still can't seem to find anything (almost) that would compel me to play more. All I've seen so far was hundreds of thousands of random encounters, a bit of annoying travelling between places on the overworld map, some wandering around boringly simplistic 'dungeons' and very subtle indistinctly articulated plot. It just doesn't seem to work for me. I mean, the demon fusion system seems quite intriguing allright, but having it alone for my enjoyment is simply not enough for me (admittedly I've yet to fully appreciate the battle system, demon abilities, items etc). Are levels or dungeons even going to become more creative and elaborated? I've defeated Matador and I think got past the first of the candelabras (can't remember exactly what you're supposed to do with them, no matter), but I don't know what lies beyond that and if I should continue. The game feels somewhat easy I must observe, maybe I should've started it on hard, yet I heard it takes dozens of hours to complete the game, so I suppose I'm almost in the very beginning and it *will* become harder.

 

[Silva]

Tse Tse Fly , If you reached Matador and the game didn't click yet for you, I suggest dropping it. Games is not for you, bro.

 

[Vorark]

I recommend Strange Journey, 'cause it's the true SMT IV in my eyes. I played the DS version, don't known if the extra content in Redux is of good quality. Devil Summoner Soul Hackers (3DS) is another suggestion, although it shows its age in terms of graphics.

Devil Survivor was mentioned, keep in mind it's like modern Persona sans social links (aka animu). The first one has a nice story, unexpected C&C and a refreshing spin on SRPGs, though. Play Overclocked instead of the original DS release, the lack of demon compedium was annoying as heck back then.

 

[Silva]

Wow, Daisoujou is a BEAST. The old man is carrying my team.

I'm flirting with this Ghost Rider too. Is he good?

 

[Vorark]

I thought he was passable, had him briefly in the party.

Daisoujou = infinite battery. Him and Mother Harlot are the worthwhile ones.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

SMT 3 got shafted in Japan because it is thematically very different compared to virtually every other SMT games.

Such a shame too because I find the factions in SMT 3 to be more appealing that Lawful Stupid and Chaotic Stupid which presents in every other games.

Spoiler

Hikawa's Shijima for example pretty much has end result of the law faction of previous games. The twist is that it also a very strong interpretation of Buddhist/Hindu Nirvana.

 

[Silva]

I suspect I may be coming to a point of (apparent) no return regarding the Reasons. Without much spoilers, could someone say if I'm more or less correct in my interpretation?

Spoiler

1. Your teacher Takao is a weak bitch. At first I sympathized with her because she looked the only sane person in this mess. But then I realized she was easily used by Mr. Hikawa all this time AND was possessed by a fucking entity right in the middle of her philosophic speech, which leads me to believe it's not even hers to begin with.

2. Hikawa sensei was the opposite - at first looked like an egothistic asshole. But after knowing him more (and the conversation at extinct Manta HQ) he looked very reasonable. Like InD_ImaginE said, it sounded very Buddhist to me too.

3. Isamu is an anti-social wanker who wants to live his life inside his own virtual JRPG dating NPC waifus.

4. Chiaki hinted at suffering at the hand of demons (tentacle rape?) and became a fucking Furiosa straight from Mad Max and wants a world of the strong.

Optional: there's supposedly an extra ending by completing Amala network that overrides all others and is apparently the most badass.

Is that it? If so, I'm sympathetic to Hikawa sensei and Chiaki Furiosa myself.