Fallout So, Fallout 1....I'm raging so hard now.

[MasPingon]

Oh boy, it's been an hour since I left 'So, Fallout 1....I'm raging so hard now' thread. I wonder what guys came up with

Third: because there are a lot of dialogues in the game, it gets pretty boring to watch the animated conversation/barter screen appear, disappear. These screens should pop up immediately, like in BG, not after a 2 second animation.

Yeah, this is another thing I wanted to mention actually. It's another one of those little things that discourages you.

Oh

 

[dunno lah]

This thread is questioning the nature of the Codex. That means it is also a possible thread.

 

[Cassidy]

This thread is questioning the nature of the Codex. That means it is also a possible thread.

This thread is showing off the true nature of certain popamolers within the Codex.

 

[Grunker]

Say bad things about our favourite game - you are popamole. Holy cows on a website that claims to be critical. Son, I am disappoint. This was the first thing I said in this topic:

I'd definetely rate Fallout as a good game

Yet even mentioning the word criticism in the same sentence as Fallout seems to be a recipe for butthurt.

 

[Jestai]

Why are you sharing the dirty talk you use when you and Infinitron get physical?

EDIT:
FUCKER EDITED HIS POST. WAS A GOOD JOKE. GIMME BACK MY BROFISTS.

 

[Hellraiser]

Was I comparing it to anything? You know I don't think I was. I think I was saying it was overated. As in: it is not the best RPG ever made. You're not making me take the troll-bait of listing some games so you can discuss those instead.

Defend Fallout with the strengths you perceive it has.

Well if something is vastly overrated it implies there are better alternatives and many of them. Yet as far as emulating a PnP roleplaying experience in a cRPG environment is concerned, via the use of player character stats to open up paths and solutions tied to the role he is playing and also using choices and consequences, there are only two games which you may say did it better. Those are Torment and Arcanum. Which one of these is better than the other is up to debate, but they're all worthy of being called the best RPG ever. Because the specific type of RPG the codex worships (or rather worshiped, as it apparently did indeed decline as Roshambo claimed it did) has been exactly that, an attempt at emulating roleplaying. Not dungeon crawling, hoarding loot, storytelling, writing or tactical combat (although the three latter are signs of incline). It was always about the fucking roleplaying.

For you maybe that's not what the RPG genre should be about. But that's what traditionally the codex hivemind (which now is probably not deserving of the name) thought it should be about, that's why AoD made by a former codex admin focuses on that. That's why Torment, Fallout and Arcanum were always praised here. That's why Bioware's/Bethesda's games have been shat on here. And that's why I joined this site, because I agreed with the view that the goal of a cRPG should be emulating roleplaying in the way those games (Fallout, Torment, Arcanum) did, but improved where necessary of course. Either way if you disagree with Fallout being at the very top of cRPG design examples than that just shows you're on the wrong RPG site. Or at least would have been before the codex went to shit and lost what it stood for.

 

[Broseph]

Goddamn heathens.

 

[Infinitron]

that's why AoD made by a former codex admin focuses on that

Ironically, Age of Decadence implements skill usage exactly the way I've recommended in this thread. You pick valid options out of a menu.

 

[SCO]

Whenever i think of fallout combat on sudden notice i then immediately think of JA2 and how it's better in every way, while being very similar.

Lazy lazy Chris Taylor.

 

[J_C]

I never though that I start such an avalanche with my thread. My work is complete on the Codex.

Oh, another thing that bothered me:
Every time that I open a (not locked) door, the character does a 2 seconds long inspection animation. Now on a place like the vaults or the Brotherhood, this gets super annoying, since you have to click on every door and the character has to do this animation. The doors should open automatically, if a character wants to pass through it. And even if it doesn't open automatically, it should open immediately when I click it, having to see a long opening animation is stupid.

I know that these are small things, nitpicking. But add all these together, and they will taint your enjoyment of the game.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

So much butthurt.

 

[Grunker]

For you maybe that's not what the RPG genre should be about. But that's what traditionally the codex hivemind (which now is probably not deserving of the name) thought it should be about, that's why AoD made by a former codex admin focuses on that. That's why Torment, Fallout and Arcanum were always praised here. That's why Bioware's/Bethesda's games have been shat on here. And that's why I joined this site, because I agreed with the view that the goal of a cRPG should be emulating roleplaying in the way those games (Fallout, Torment, Arcanum) did, but improved where necessary of course. Either way if you disagree with Fallout being at the very top of cRPG design examples than that just shows you're on the wrong RPG site. Or at least would have been before the codex went to shit and lost what it stood for.

I joined because this place lets me voice whatever I opinion I wished. I joined because this place has a critical approach to gaming that is sorely lacking everywhere else. I joined because I shared a love of certain old RPGs and agree with the Codex on what made them great - even if I think they over- or underrate one or two of them. I'm sure everyone has their little personal disagreeance with the "hivemind."

I did not join because of a few games and their symbollic meaning to this place. I did not join because I saw the holy trinity and thought "hell yeah, those games are immune to criticism, and these guys aren't criticizing them."

You're also contradicting yourself. This place has more than its fair share of criticism of both Torment and Arcanum. There are quite a lot of posters who dislike Arcanum very, very much, and Torment gets quite a lot of flac from the mondblutian crowd. These guys argue these games all the time here.

Yet even mentioning a few criticisms of Fallout - even with the disclaimer that you consider it a good game - starts a shitstorm. You dislike Torment, you're a combatfag. You dislike Arcanum, hell, you're half the population. But don't you dislike Fallout, that cow's got a halo and a set o' wings!

 

[Hellraiser]

Ironically, Age of Decadence implements skill usage exactly the way I've recommended in this thread. You pick valid options out of a menu.

True but I'm not arguing with you here as I find the whole "how to use skill" thing pedantic nonsense, just like I view the other nitpicking silly. The important thing is not if skill/stat use is obscured by not mentioning that something is a skill/stat check like Fallout did (and AoD does as I believe VD got rid off those [skill] tags in front of choices after the demo unless he changed his mind again), it is that they're used at all and in what amount.

Sure fallout could have several things improved, it's not perfect. But despite the flaws the core RPG gameplay design outclasses all but maybe two games. Saying UI design and combat don't make it one of the best if not the best RPG title is idiotic. It's like saying Deus Ex doesn't deserve to be called one of the best games ever because the voice acting and AI suck, how the fuck does that invalidate all the good game design?

I simply find Grunker's claim about Fallout being overrated idiotic, because the amount of games that do proper roleplaying as good as it does it is laughably small unfortunately. It's like saying a Koenigsegg CXX is overrated because a Buggatii Veyron is faster, completely ignoring that you have 99% if not more of its competition way behind it.

EDIT:

Grunker I'm not contradicting myself anywhere in my post. If I said that those games have universal appeal on the codex only to later say that the codex criticizes one of them all the time I would be contracting myself, but I never did that.

Also I pointed out the flaws of combat in Fallout int his very topic, yet I did not cause a shitstorm (although awor disagreed with me about stealth being useless in Fallout's combat, and he was right). Maybe you should look at how and what you criticized.

 

[Cassidy]

So much butthurt.

If it was a tennishero, -insertobviousdrogalthere- or Andhaira thread with exactly the same content, it would be far less impactful because of being completely expected from such posters. From now on it's less likely threads like this started by J_C will draw as much attention.

The truth is that whenever a popamoler brings in the usual vapid defense of a mediocre AAAwesome game, then bashes Fallout(or System Shock 2), it's a surefire formula to draw rage.

Now add creating a Facebook Page for the Codex to the list of shame, and you got a confirmed agent of decline.

 

[Infinitron]

I simply find Grunker's claim about Fallout being overrated idiotic, because the amount of games that do proper roleplaying as good as it does it is laughably small unfortunately. It's like saying a Koenigsegg CXX is overrated because a Buggatii Veyron is faster, completely ignoring that you have 99% if not more of its competition way behind it.

It depends on your Definition Of An RPG and what you believe a CRPG is supposed to achieve.

I don't know about me, but you should probably cut Grunker some slack in this matter. Unlike many people here, he's an actual PnP roleplaying guy.

 

[Grunker]

Hellraiser: It's pretty simple. I do not think Fallout is close to being the best RPG ever, even though it's good. I made a list, but I don't want to post it because it is obvious flame-bait - the next 10 pages will be about this or that game instead of the discussion we're having now about Fallout. Which, for what it's worth, has an interesting point or two amidst all the shit-flinging launched this way (mmm, smells good!). It isn't important anyway; what is important to this discussion is Fallout and how what we think of it. It wouldn't matter if it was the only RPG out there.

 

[Lancehead]

that's why AoD made by a former codex admin focuses on that

Ironically, Age of Decadence implements skill usage exactly the way I've recommended in this thread. You pick valid options out of a menu.

AoD is a very scripted experience, but Fallout is a mix of scripted and sandbox experience, which is where I think the arguments of "discovery" come from.

Also, Hellraiser, you got things mixed up very much. Torment is liked for very different reasons than Arcanum and Fallout. Torment barely emulates P&P gameplay since it's a thoroughly scripted game. One of the core tenets of P&P is its openness to conflict resolution. Fallout is great because, to me at least, it does a good job of blurring the lines between sandbox and scripted experiences. Fallout/Arcanum and Torment stand for very different type of RPGs.

And finally, Bethesda-pre-Oblivion have done a great job of producing sandbox experiences.

 

[Grunker]

One of the core tenets of P&P is its openness to conflict resolution.

Eh... no. No it isn't. There are plenty of railroaded and linear campaigns and scenarios. Also well-designed ones. In multiple systems.

It's true that like in video gaming, non-linearity is interesting because it isn't viable in many media, but it's not "core" in the sense that good, linear P&P stuff doesn't exist. I do agree that most P&P RPGs favor a multitude of solutions even if they're linear in their narrative, though.

I think the whole thing about emulating P&P is a fallacy though, and that's coming from a true P&P-fag who think P&P systems should be implemented more in cRPGs.

 

[undecaf]

the character does a 2 seconds long inspection animation ... a long opening animation

4 seconds of dead gaming right there killing the fun and incentive to go on.

Seriously though. Yeah, I get you. Little streams connect to build a river and all that... but I don't see the issue from such a frustrative angle. They're, in my opinion, really not that big deals to interfere with the enjoyment of the game; and if they did bother me that much, I would probably consider that maybe there's something in the game that makes me look specifically for these little things get annoyed about. A flaw on a deeper level (maybe expectations, maybe something else) I can't fully explain but which just makes me want to find something to shit on to get the steam out of my system. But that's just me, and admittedly I have a bit of a bias here.

 

[Hellraiser]

Then I believe you are a man of poor taste and should be forbidden from wearing monocles and top hats until the end of time. Especially if you are afraid of voicing your opinion on what is the best RPG game design because random people on the Internet might will not like them.

 

[Excidium]

I think the whole thing about emulating P&P is a fallacy though, and that's coming from a true P&P-fag who think P&P systems should be implemented more in cRPGs.

Emulating pnp is what CRPGs exist for.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Exactly. Fallout 2 did offer a lot of improvements on the first game in terms of interface and the variety of random encounters, and it did a great job at providing a larger world to fuck around in. The problem is, they went overboard. It's a bloated game with too much combat coupled with generally uninteresting encounter design. Still a very fun game, but better than the first? No. Fallout was a fantastic game from start to finish and it didn't bother with filler content.

Too much combat? Only mandatory combat in F2 is boss fight.

good luck achieving that before your 20th playthrough where you metagame like a boss for higher-than-maximum efficiency. In practical terms, you'll be fighting often.

 

[Grunker]

Especially if you are afraid of voicing your opinion on what is the best RPG game design because random people on the Internet might will not like them.

Ho-ho, so now refusing to take flame-bait is cowardice? You're a creative motherfucker, I'll give you that.

If being yelled at was my fear, I doubt I would put myself out there even to criticize Fallout. You fuckers can hate on me all you want

Hell, I lauded Dragon Age back when the consensus was against the game. That warranted death penalty, until Vault Dweller wrote his review. The Codex is a fickle beast.

I think the whole thing about emulating P&P is a fallacy though, and that's coming from a true P&P-fag who think P&P systems should be implemented more in cRPGs.

Emulating pnp is what CRPGs exist for.

I disagree.

 

[J_C]

the character does a 2 seconds long inspection animation ... a long opening animation

4 seconds of dead gaming right there killing the fun and incentive to go on.

Seriously though. Yeah, I get you. Little streams connect to build a river and all that... but I don't see the issue from such a frustrative angle. They're, in my opinion, really not that big deals to interfere with the enjoyment of the game; and if they did bother me that much, I would probably consider that maybe there's something in the game that makes me look specifically for these little things get annoyed about. A flaw on a deeper level (maybe expectations, maybe something else) I can't fully explain but which just makes me want to find something to shit on to get the steam out of my system. But that's just me, and admittedly I have a bit of a bias here.

These little problems don't annoy me per se, and I can also look over them, but as you said, they build up, and even though I enjoy a game, in the end I feel that it could have been so much better. And there are games which don't have these small flaws, so when I finish them, I don't just say "yep, this was good", but I say "holy cow this was one of the best games I've ever played".

 

[Excidium]

Especially if you are afraid of voicing your opinion on what is the best RPG game design because random people on the Internet might will not like them.

Ho-ho, so now refusing to take flame-bait is cowardice? You're a creative motherfucker, I'll give you that.

If being yelled at was my fear, I doubt I would put myself out there even to criticize Fallout. You fuckers can hate on me all you want

I think the whole thing about emulating P&P is a fallacy though, and that's coming from a true P&P-fag who think P&P systems should be implemented more in cRPGs.

Emulating pnp is what CRPGs exist for.

I disagree.

Well, I wonder what Computer Role-Playing Game means to you.