Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Null Null]

Yeah, the beholder's longest-range attack is 7 squares, so if you can keep range you can kill it with a fine longbow.

That's right, PROTIP: To defeat the beholder, shoot it until it dies.

 

[Cael]

Yeah, the beholder's longest-range attack is 7 squares, so if you can keep range you can kill it with a fine longbow.

That's right, PROTIP: To defeat the beholder, shoot it until it dies.

Better than the noob trick of rushing with swords until all your PCs get turned to stone or dust.

 

[Dorateen]

Interesting note about beholders, their first appearance is in Curse of the Azure Bonds where they were represented as 1 box creatures, smaller than they would later become. I believe they were susceptible to backstabs.

 

[Arrowgrab]

A quick question to people familiar with FRUA:

Is it possible to use FRUA (or maybe some fan-made modification of it) to create and play modules for the two Buck Rogers games? And if so, is there a dummy's version on how to do it?

 

[octavius]

I think ProphetSword made a BR hack.

 

[Null Null]

There have been a bunch of BR hacks-there was an older game, ‘The Chaos Factor’ (EDIT: by ProphetSword), and partial hacks by GoldBoxFan and Hans. There are relatively few graphics used, so conversions are easy in that regard. The hard part, of course, is hacks. Basically, FRUA isn’t set up for the complex set of immunities to physical damage that BR had-rocket weapons, needle guns, lasers, and heat guns were all more or less effective against different monsters and FRUA just has plus levels (which are already used in BR as the plain/Mars/Venus/Mercury/Lunar adjective) and blunt and edged weapons. The area of effect weapons are pretty clearly renamed spells but because monsters don’t use items and spell casting can be interrupted or prevented by damage you can’t have robots tossing rockets the way you did in BR.

Of course some clever hacker may prove me wrong, but that’s where it stands as of now.

 

[ProphetSword]

A quick question to people familiar with FRUA:

Is it possible to use FRUA (or maybe some fan-made modification of it) to create and play modules for the two Buck Rogers games? And if so, is there a dummy's version on how to do it?

As both posters above have stated, I created a Buck Rogers module back in the early 2000s in FRUA ("Chaos Factor"). That was built off of someone else's Buck Rogers hack, though. There's also an unfinished module based upon the Buck Rogers TSR module "Ghost in the Machine" that I released simply for the hacks that I created for it back in the late 1990s. Aside from that, Buck Rogers modules are very scarce in FRUA-land. I think there's another one by someone else, but I can't remember what it is who it's by. There's not as much love for Buck Rogers in the community as there is for AD&D.

To address your question, though, the two official Buck Rogers games ("Countdown to Doomsday" and "Matrix Cubed") have never been translated to FRUA. This is due to the limitations of the engine. We cannot replicate everything that SSI added to the engine to run those games. Off the top of my head, the skill system alone would be impossible and would have to be outright ignored.

Recreating the modules might be possible in Dungeon Craft (a spiritual successor to FRUA that runs in Windows), but I haven't seen anyone try it yet.

 

[Null Null]

There were also a couple of (heavily hacked) sci-fi mods--the ones by Harri Polsa about Jade come to mind. All the SHUA mods technically count as sci-fi. Generally people who wanted to do sci-fi in FRUA tended to make their own hacks (change arrows to bullets and bows to guns, put robots as monsters) rather than try to copy BR, which as ProphetSword says above relied heavily on a skill system there would be no way to replicate.

TBH Buck Rogers, as ProphetSword also says, never got much of a fanbase. The setting was interesting--biopunk before they called it that--but they kept trying to sell it as space opera, and they didn't have the popularity of Star Wars, Star Trek, or (1980s) Battlestar: Galactica; the Buck Rogers franchise had pretty much petered out at that point. The only reason the game ever existed was because it made money for Lorraine Williams, who owned the IP.

I enjoyed the games when I finally played them, but I think that was more because of the tactical goldbox engine than anything else, and that point I was thinking of doing a partial FRUA conversion so it was more "can I turn Fireball into that? can I turn Ice Storm into that?" A bunch of people beat me to it, though, and I decided to aim small. They've always remained more of a minority taste, I think, because the skill system doesn't allow for the sort of tactically complex play the combat system does, and the combat system just doesn't allow for that many types of characters without magic. You've got warriors, who fight, medics, who you hide so they can heal the party afterward, and rocketjocks, engineers, and rogues, who fight...not as well and have different skills you use at various points in the game. Hacking a computer is a simple roll, so you just save and reload...there isn't 'let me use this software for this electronic intrusion countermeasures' like in, say, Neuromancer. Everyone can use every item, so there isn't the whole set of tradeoffs like 'fight durability versus magical firepower' or 'advancement speed versus versatility' that characterized the AD&D goldbox engine games. Playing Pool of Radiance with three fighters, a cleric, a thief, and a mage is a very different experience from playing with a fighter/thief and five cleric/fighter/mages (or one cleric/fighter/mage ). Buck Rogers....you can see how far you can push a lack of non-warrior non-medics and that's about it.

 

[pjs]

With a higher level (due to not being triple classed or starting DQK at level 16 triple class), I tend to have very little issues with the game even on the highest difficulty. It is just more boring because of the higher HP making it more of a combat slog. Playing Dave's Challenge might factor into that as you can get multiple copies of +3 Platemail from there, which is a huge boon to elf mages as they can cast in armour (again, something that is not documented anywhere that I recall), leaving your precious Bracers to single-class mages or mage/thieves.

For what it's worth, I replayed the whole Krynn series again with Human Knight (switched to sword when I could keep L14, so around Lunitari tower) and 5 elves (1 F/C, 2 F/Red mages, 2 white mages). As I suspected, having only one healer was somewhat painful at times and maybe I should have switched the knight earlier to get the spells (but I wanted two attacks quickly). All dual-class fighters obtained their L14 nicely around Lunitari tower, so the rest of the game was much smoother. Two full mages was certainly also a huge (and maybe a bigger) asset, especially at the end part when the levels were already past 25 and DBFs and similar spells were so much deadlier than for example L14-L16 mages.

I think I like DKK best. While the plot is nice, the characters in COK are so weak until you have dealt with Throtl and Gargath that you have play it slowly and carefully (and/or reload often especially if the cleric gets struck down). In DKK the plot is also ok and there are a nice bunch of small side quests, also useful rewards. The play is much faster, but you still seem to get killed regularly by poisonous spiders etc. (for some reason, periapt vs poison does not make you immune either) so you can't just toggle on autoplay. DQK is way too sluggish and the mazes of lunitari, tombs of kristophan and hawbluff keep are ridiculous if you don't have the maps; the way how the "game length" was designed was not very optimal.

 

[Desiderius]

DKK was first real cRPG for me. Very fond memories. Especially of that Skomp town and finding Dave’s Challenge on my own.

 

[octavius]

for some reason, periapt vs poison does not make you immune either

IIRC it makes you immune to Disease. Maybe a programming error?

 

[Cael]

With a higher level (due to not being triple classed or starting DQK at level 16 triple class), I tend to have very little issues with the game even on the highest difficulty. It is just more boring because of the higher HP making it more of a combat slog. Playing Dave's Challenge might factor into that as you can get multiple copies of +3 Platemail from there, which is a huge boon to elf mages as they can cast in armour (again, something that is not documented anywhere that I recall), leaving your precious Bracers to single-class mages or mage/thieves.

For what it's worth, I replayed the whole Krynn series again with Human Knight (switched to sword when I could keep L14, so around Lunitari tower) and 5 elves (1 F/C, 2 F/Red mages, 2 white mages). As I suspected, having only one healer was somewhat painful at times and maybe I should have switched the knight earlier to get the spells (but I wanted two attacks quickly). All dual-class fighters obtained their L14 nicely around Lunitari tower, so the rest of the game was much smoother. Two full mages was certainly also a huge (and maybe a bigger) asset, especially at the end part when the levels were already past 25 and DBFs and similar spells were so much deadlier than for example L14-L16 mages.

I think I like DKK best. While the plot is nice, the characters in COK are so weak until you have dealt with Throtl and Gargath that you have play it slowly and carefully (and/or reload often especially if the cleric gets struck down). In DKK the plot is also ok and there are a nice bunch of small side quests, also useful rewards. The play is much faster, but you still seem to get killed regularly by poisonous spiders etc. (for some reason, periapt vs poison does not make you immune either) so you can't just toggle on autoplay. DQK is way too sluggish and the mazes of lunitari, tombs of kristophan and hawbluff keep are ridiculous if you don't have the maps; the way how the "game length" was designed was not very optimal.

As I said, you switch your Knight to Sword towards the end of COK when you can stay level 6 or 7 Sword after the change. If you don't, no wonder you had difficulties at certain points. An extra 1/2 attack per round for 1 character is not worth the aggravation of relying on only one person for healing.

 

[Cael]

for some reason, periapt vs poison does not make you immune either

IIRC it makes you immune to Disease. Maybe a programming error?

That gives you -4 to your save vs poison. It is not proof, just extra resistance. Not sure about the immunity to disease part...

 

[newtmonkey]

Curse of the Azure Bonds (PC DOS)
I finished this just now, using my winning party imported from Pool of Radiance. Overall, I enjoyed the game, but felt it was quite a step down from Pool of Radiance.

I'll get the bad out of the way first. The structure of the game is actually pretty lame. It's "nonlinear" in that you can tackle the middle portion of the game in any order, but there is a clear order you are meant to progress through the game (there is even a location you can visit telling you which "boss" you should kill next ). You do have some optional locations to explore, but they are just mazes without any interesting encounters—simply a way to gain experience and treasure.

One of the biggest letdowns with this one is the lack of a true wilderness to explore. Pool of Radiance really feels massive and open in comparison, with a large wilderness to explore step-by-step and plenty of interesting locations to find. Curse of the Azure Bonds, in contrast, has you selecting a handful of locations from a map menu.

Now for the good. I was impressed that there was still plenty of room for my party to develop; they were nearly unstoppable at the end of Pool of Radiance, so I was happy to see enemies still putting up quite a fight. Really excellent encounter design in this one, even if it does rely too heavily on "hold person" toward the end. Combat was still a blast, even in the second half where it seemed that every other encounter was a bunch of priests and hellhounds. I do like that you could "clear" areas like in PoR by winning enough random encounters.

---

Sadly, my party was too weak to defeat the final encounter legitimately. I REALLY wish I had waited for better DEX and CON rolls for my magic users back in Pool of Radiance, because more often that not combat started with a lightning bolt from Tyranthraxus killing my weakest magic user (max HP 29) and (if I was especially unlucky) bouncing off the wall to take out my cleric just to be even more of a dick. This was with every single pre-combat buff I could think of cast ahead of time. The closest I got was when my fighter/thief won initiative and went first, as I could send him out to engage Tyranthraxus in melee; within a couple of rounds Tyranthraxus was dead but a barrage of Slay Living and Hold Person spells from his high priests decimated my party.

I ended up using the Dust of Disappearance, which is perhaps not cheating per se since you get it in the game... but it sure did feel like cheating lol.

I'll hang onto my saves because I'd like to beat the encounter legitimately sometime. I think classes other than magic-users can use wands, so one option would be give a Wand of Fireballs to my 18 DEX thief so that he can start the battle by thinning the herd a bit so that my melee characters can rush the boss and high priests. This would let my magic-users (if they survive potential lightning bolts) to retreat back through the door when they can start fireballing the high priests, etc.

For now though, the game is finished and I've imported my party into Secret of the Silver Blades.

---

I'll probably take a break from Gold Box games for a while. When I do resume the series, I will probably play in the order the game were released, so will start a new party in Champions of Krynn before continuing my adventures in Secret of the Silver Blades.

 

[octavius]

I guess I'm the only one who liked the wilderness map, with scripted encounters instead of random ones.

Seems many players have problems with the final battle. Personally I think the whole Drow infested Hap+dungeon, Yulash, and the maze under Zhentil Keep were the hardest part, not counting the optional Mulmaster Beholder Corps (which is doable if abusing the poor pathfinding).

 

[newtmonkey]

I did like the scripted encounters on the map in this one, I just felt that it lacked the sense of exploration you got with PoR, which felt like a massive open world in comparison.

I think the Mulmaster Beholder Corps is completely out of reach for my party (if I had trouble with Tyranthraxus, I can only imagine the massive end of days butthurt that would have been caused by the beholders). Even killing that one beholder was a pain lol.

The Pit of Moander was another tough spot for me, but I was able to get through it without much trouble once I figured out what buffs were useful.

I didn't have much trouble with drow, thanks mostly to my MVP fighter/thief. I'm glad I went with that character, he became the star of the party from about the end of PoR all through CotAB. He in fact single-handedly killed Tyranthraxus at the end of CotAB. Cheers to all backstabbing dwarf fighter/thieves everywhere!

 

[DaveO]

With me having free time and not totally committed to my Apple II run on Wizard's Crown, I think it's time to consider finally playing these classics. The question is should I do it in order or go with ones where the play gets epic(thinking the Krynn one here).

 

[octavius]

Play both the Pool and Krynn series; both get epic.
Savage Frontier games don't get epic, and unless you can't get enough of the Gold Box games, are worth it only for the final battles in the first game.

 

[DaveO]

I'll do Krynn first. I'll have to look at some general guides to figure out my party, but I do have a soft spot for Dragonlance so obviously it is first.

 

[Cael]

You can add the Savage Frontier games to the Pools games to make a mega epic if you so wish.

 

[Cael]

I'll do Krynn first. I'll have to look at some general guides to figure out my party, but I do have a soft spot for Dragonlance so obviously it is first.

There was a discussion in this thread about that exact topic.

 

[DaveO]

Well, 166 pages does not lend itself to being easily searchable. I'll figure out the party, but some input and advice would be helpful.

 

[Cael]

Well, 166 pages does not lend itself to being easily searchable. I'll figure out the party, but some input and advice would be helpful.

Krynn is very multiclass friendly due to (relatively) high level limits. Enjoy it while you can.

Single class characters will lose XP (after the first two games) due to game level limits.

Elven fighter/mages have an undocumented ability to cast mage spells in armour.

Dwarves have an undocumented ability to wield battleaxes in 1 hand. Other races require 2.

Kender are traps. Their level limits are too low for anything other than thief, and if you want a thief, you might as well go elf or half-elf Red Mage/Thief (both of which goes to max level, IIRC).

Don't even consider Ranger/Cleric. The XP requirements will kill you. They are almost as slow to level as triple class multies.

Triple class multies are not a good idea, unless you are going to play the game again and again until they are at maximum level for the game before going to the next one. That said, a Fighter/Thief/Red Mage is not a bad way to get a Thief in the party as well as getting some combat and magic utility out of it. Thief and Red Mage are the fastest levelling classes in the game bar none.

Mage heavy parties will have a far easier time than most, even at low levels. Fighter/Red Mage is a perfectly viable party member.

You will need at least 1 Cleric, at least until your Knight gets off the ground in terms of spell casting.

Oh, and you'd want a Knight. It will save you bashing head into the desk at the antics of your NPC followers.

 

[DaveO]

Ok, so Knight, Cleric and those two mages seem to be a good start. Is Paladin any good and does it have a good multiclass? If not, then perhaps a Ranger multi without Cleric(I don't think there is one). I feel two healers are helpful, but Paladin may cover that if it is decent.

 

[DaveO]

Ok, so I checked reliable GameFaqs and no Paladin. Now a pure fighter just seems to ask for trouble. That means a Qualenesti Ranger/Thief would likely do well. I could have a Kender Cleric/Thief but I'm not sure that is a good idea.