Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Null Null]

You ain't wrong. It's indoor fun for old nerds, like fantasy football or arguments about whether Batman could beat Spiderman. I mean, what else is a guy who can tell you the time Pools of Darkness used the wrong icon for the Dark Lord supposed to do?

FWIW people with no background in D&D tend to get trapped up by weird 1st edition crap like level limits or strength caps on female characters--they'll make halfling fighters and half-elf clerics and get upset they can't get through Curse.

But, I mean, it's a game. Nobody's dying in real life.

And it keeps my mind off politics.

 

[ProphetSword]

What...nobody reads the manuals anymore...?

 

[octavius]

What...nobody reads the manuals anymore...?

That's funny 'cause the manuals of PoR and CoAB never told you about the final level limits for non-humans; only the manual for PoD gave you the full table. I remember having to restart the Pool series a couple of times due to this.
EDIT: actually it was the Krynn series.

 

[newtmonkey]

I dunno about the Amiga manuals, but the manual for the DOS and C64 versions of PoR do mention level limits for non-humans, both in the text and on a table on the back cover.

 

[Ladonna]

If you change your mind between games, and want to create a new party (which will net you more hit points usually), just give all your good equipment to one character at each games end, transfer just that character, create 5 newbies, transfer the good stuff, and create another to replace the 1 you brought across. This lets you have fun in the early level games, with the races and classes that get nerfed in later games.

 

[DaveO]

I'm definitely determined to enjoy my party. I don't expect things to go smoothly, but half the fun is pulling yourself out of situations you thought were going to go well.

 

[Cael]

If you change your mind between games, and want to create a new party (which will net you more hit points usually), just give all your good equipment to one character at each games end, transfer just that character, create 5 newbies, transfer the good stuff, and create another to replace the 1 you brought across. This lets you have fun in the early level games, with the races and classes that get nerfed in later games.

One thing that enraged me about the Pools series is that they take away all your stuff at the beginning of the first three games. It is the main reason why I don't rate them higher than the rest.

Reminds me too much of Shadows Over Riva.

 

[octavius]

The cleverest thing about Secret of the Silver Blades was that the heroes appeared because someone Wished for heroes but forgot to mention gear, so they got naked heroes.

I dunno about the Amiga manuals, but the manual for the DOS and C64 versions of PoR do mention level limits for non-humans, both in the text and on a table on the back cover.

I may be confusing with the Krynn series, but I definitely remember being peeved about the manuals not providing the full tables.

 

[ProphetSword]

They're clearly there.

For Pool of Radiance, they're listed on the back of the Rule Book:

For Curse of the Azure Bonds, they're on page 23 of the Rule Book:

In Champions of Krynn, it's on page 56 of the Adventurer's Journal:

And in Death Knights of Krynn, you can find them on page 52 of the Adventurer's Journal:

 

[octavius]

Ah, it seems it must have been the Krynn games that caused me some minor aggrevation.
Those tables for CoK and DKQ only list the level limits for that specific game.

 

[ProphetSword]

Is it possible that by providing the full tables in PoR that someone complained because the game stated they could get to a certain level, but the game didn’t actually let them go that far? So, as a result they may have made a decision to only list the levels as far as they actually went in that game?

If so, I find it hard to argue with the logic.

It’s also possible that TSR may have asked them to do it, since I knew people back in those days who didn’t own actual AD&D books who were using the manuals from the Gold-Box games to play D&D, as it provided enough bare bones rules to create a lite version of AD&D if you had prior experience playing.

 

[Null Null]

ProphetSword has a good point. Remember this is the era of They Sue Regularly and if you wanted to make a bootleg copy of a manual you had to spend a few dollars and a few hours with a Xerox machine. They might have quite seriously considered complete enough rules in a game manual a threat to their bottom line.

 

[Incendax]

Is Majere worth it over Kiri-Jolith?
Is the Turning Bonus useful in Dark Queen? I also don't remember if it had a big impact in Death Knights. Is extra silence worth it against casters like dark wizards and vampire mages compared to the THAC0 bonus?

 

[octavius]

Silence is too slow and unreliable, and IIRC the Dark Wizards are are protected by Minor Globes.

 

[pjs]

Is Majere worth it over Kiri-Jolith?
Is the Turning Bonus useful in Dark Queen? I also don't remember if it had a big impact in Death Knights. Is extra silence worth it against casters like dark wizards and vampire mages compared to the THAC0 bonus?

I thought turning bonus is most useful ini Death Knights, to get rid of random undead quickly. In DQK the nasty undead are mostly big hordes of vampires (mages being the nastiest of the lot) especially in Tombs of Kristophan and a couple of instances in the southern parts of the map. I don't recall even trying to turn them much. In any case, you would need many clerics to make a big difference, and I you most likely won't want too many of them in your party.

Silence is too slow and unreliable, and IIRC the Dark Wizards are are protected by Minor Globes.

Indeed, I only tried using silence in earlier games (and not too many times). Dark Wizards have a regular Globe of Invulnerability.

 

[ProphetSword]

The trick is not to cast Silence on the protected wizards, but to cast it on one of your own front line fighters and have him/her go stand in their face. That way, the only way it goes down is if the fighter goes down.

 

[Incendax]

For that matter, are Good clerics even worth taking compared to the spell progression and XP requirements of Neutral clerics?

 

[Cael]

Is Majere worth it over Kiri-Jolith?
Is the Turning Bonus useful in Dark Queen? I also don't remember if it had a big impact in Death Knights. Is extra silence worth it against casters like dark wizards and vampire mages compared to the THAC0 bonus?

I thought turning bonus is most useful ini Death Knights, to get rid of random undead quickly. In DQK the nasty undead are mostly big hordes of vampires (mages being the nastiest of the lot) especially in Tombs of Kristophan and a couple of instances in the southern parts of the map. I don't recall even trying to turn them much. In any case, you would need many clerics to make a big difference, and I you most likely won't want too many of them in your party.

You don't get the XP if you Turn, so I never bothered.

You can't turn Vampires. Liches, eventually, yes, but not Vampires. Even Skeletal Knights are very difficult. Forget about Death Dragons.

+1 THAC0 and Detect Magic is always useful regardless of level. +2 level to Turning has diminishing returns as you level, and you will want to use something else in the place of Silence when facing casters (Fireball, Hold Person or Power Word Kill, for example).

 

[Cael]

For that matter, are Good clerics even worth taking compared to the spell progression and XP requirements of Neutral clerics?

Neutral Clerics doesn't bring anything to the table in terms of power and spells granted. At high levels, it won't matter as much, I suppose. I would love to have a Dwarf Ftr/Cle, except the stupidly low level limit on Cleric for dwarves.

 

[Null Null]

There is one advantage to neutral clerics--due to the eccentricities of the level charts they get 7th level spells in Death Knights of Krynn. Good clerics do not until level 15, but DKK maxes out at 14.

I've turned vampires. The chance never gets high enough to be reliable, though. And I don't think Skel Warriors (DKK, DQK) can be turned at all, though Skeletal Knights (COK) occasionally can.

 

[Erebus]

I've never seen Turn Undead work against the Skeleton Warriors of Dark Queen of Krynn.

It can work against Liches, though it seldom does. Hitting Liches until they stop moving is usually a safer approach : unlike Dark Wizards, they have little protection.

I think it can work against vampires... at least against some of them (in DQK, there are normal vampires but also vampire wizards and vampire clerics).

 

[Null Null]

In the category of 'did we really need a definitive answer that badly?'...

I pulled up the Gold Box Companion's monster editor and confirmed that Skel Warriors in both DQK and DKK do not have the byte set that allows turning undead.

Liches and Vampires in fact do, though it's set to one of the higher possible values (12 and 10 respectively). It's higher for vampire clerics and mages (and thieves) in DQK, who are turned one level up (ghost, which is between vampire and lich in the tables). Some encounters will make it harder to turn undead, so that may be why you had problems. A 14th level cleric is supposed to have to roll a 4 on d20 (85% chance of success), so they might have changed it. That goes down to 70% for 'ghosts', 55% for liches, and 40% for 'special', the rank above lich. Odds are 30% worse for 9th-13th level, and beyond that you get into the whole awful 1st ed DMG table I am not reproducing here.

The Skel Knights from Champions are turned as spectres (9). I'm not sure if these were ever in an actual tabletop supplement or if they thought they made a better challenge or something.

A whole bunch of random undead monsters in DKK are set as 13 ('special'), including spectral dragons but also less impressive monsters like undead beasts and dragons and even skeletal giants. My best explanation is they had that in there as a placeholder while they figured out the real value and then forgot to change it.

Also not-turnable undead: dread wolf, spectral minion, death knight (at least that one's told to you straight in the manual--'a dangerous type of liche that cannot be turned'). Of course when I got the game 30 years ago I had no clue what a liche was.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

The Original Neverwinter Nights 1991-1997 (bladekeep.com)
Neverwinter Nights (AOL game) | Annex | Fandom

I was going through some crap and decided to look at myabandonware. Uh... are they seriously thinking of selling the old AOL Neverwinter Nights on steam & GOG? Take a look: Download Neverwinter Nights - My Abandonware. On another note I had no idea about Forgotten Worlds. I'll have to install this.
ForgottenWorld Online Game
How to Install the ForgottenWorld game software
Eh, you can still get it if you look. I can't recall if I had Ver 2.2 or not.

 

[Desiderius]

NN was marketed as first MMO, or at least Gold Box MMO/MUD.

 

[Incendax]

NN was marketed as first MMO, or at least Gold Box MMO/MUD.

I count Habitat as the first MMO. I know Island of Kesami came before that, but it was just designed to be a bigger MUD. Habitat was intentional.

Neverwinter was pretty solid for it's time. Though, I think I spent more time in Shadow of Yserbius/Fates of Twinion in those days.