Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Sinatar]

Such a great concept for a dungeon, but man is it annoying to get through. Hey lets make every encounter a mix of super shambling mounds and iron golems.

 

[Desiderius]

Just when I'd blown my sweet co-op job to go overseas so couldn't afford the hint line too.

 

[Cael]

Such a great concept for a dungeon, but man is it annoying to get through. Hey lets make every encounter a mix of super shambling mounds and iron golems.

Not to mention Moander is a rotting garbage heap, not a forest titan wannabe.

 

[Null Null]

<shrug> We only see a piece of him come through in Curse.

The discrepancy between the ones in Curse that suffocate you and the ones in Pools that cause paralysis, petrification, and poison always made me wonder. I thought initially the point was that the variant Bits had been shaped by the wizards in Marcus' Tower using the tissues of Moander and therefore the extra abilities (and red color of the strongest ones) were produced by their enchantments--remember Shal refers to them as 'Marcus' creations'. But Moander's body is full of the things, and they have the same abilities, when as native bits of the tissue they should be the 'baseline' version.

Of course space was limited, and they probably took out the shambling mound engulfment code to add all the other stuff they wanted to put in--easier to just use the paralysis/petrification/poison code they had for all the other monsters.

I've read some people suggest they switched the final and random encounters--the randoms are famously tough but the final battle with Tanetal is pretty easy.

 

[Null Null]

Sounds like you're squeezing all the challenge out of the games. The only really difficult part is the final battles in PoD, where I found that otherwise normal characters will need 18 DEX. Part of Curse is pretty diffucult too; I wished I had more than just one Fighter/Thief when battling the Drown in and under Hap.

And not playing PoR because no Paladins or Ranger??? Just use some multi-class Elves/Half-Elves and ditch them at the start of Curse.

I have already played PoR probably about three times (and it's a very good game, certainly better than SSB with all the huge mazes). The idea here was to see how you could optimize and develop the same party through the FR games. PoR does not quite fit with that idea.

As noted here on another post and in the guide above, another strategy for developing dual-class characters is having one or two multi-class characters as support in the party and replacing them as the game progresses with a new set of dual-class characters. But I didn't feel like doing that.

Let me address this, because I've done it:
I had three (human) fighters, an elf fighter/mage/thief, a (human) cleric, and a (human) mage in Pool. I switched one fighter to a mage in Secret at level 13 and the second to a cleric in Pools at level 17 (min THAC0). Make sure everyone has an 18 DEX!

Generally Pool allows for a good deal of eccentricity in party development due to the auto-scaling encounters (you can beat it with a single character if you want to). The trick is to slowly ramp up your number of magic-users to deal with the increasing mob strength throughout the games, and in Pools I liked to have a second cleric given the lethality of the game (lots of insta-death attacks). The later you dual-class your fighters, the more HP and attacks they will have, but the longer you'll have without extra magic power. In Curse, you can get through with a multiclass mage because elves can get to 11th, the maximum, and Curse has those optional dungeons where you can pick up lots of extra XP; the charts also make it relatively easy for mages to get from levels 6 to 11 for some reason (it's only a factor of about 10, compared to 20 for fighters or 25 for clerics). Once you get to Secret, your elf maxes out in the middle, so convert over one fighter and you'll still be able to get back to 14 with some work. Once you get to Pools you'll have two and a half mages, so you can flip one of the remaining two fighters to a cleric early on.

 

[Glop_dweller]

I ended up skipping Pool of Radiance, because it does not offer paladin or ranger as an option, and I didn't want to resort to hex-editing the characters to a different class in Curse.

PoR is a great game, and also the only one (AFAIK) that has an open world —eventually.

 

[octavius]

Champions of Krynn and Gateway to the Savage Frontier also had open worlds, but with one exception in CoK there was absolutely nothing exciting to discover. The more limited overland map of Curse of the Azure Bonds was much more interesting.
So open world is not good unless you put something in it.

 

[Ladonna]

Gateway to the Savage Frontier

Both the savage frontier games had open world movement, but apart from the secret Dwarven dungeons in Treasures, I don't recall there being anything new to discover in them either. Buck Rogers also had it on various worlds you went to. Again, there were only a few different things you could discover outside the quest locations (meeting the acid frogs on Venus, etc). Wasted opportunities all round for this franchise.

Pool of Radiance had a few locations and events that you only found by searching the map. You might hear about them from a tavern tale, but that would be your only clue to look.

 

[Dick]

Quite astonished to see that PoR has an actual world map lol, I never made it that far because the game bugged out for me after having played it for about half-way through or so (?) I think the stats of my chars went totally crazy for no apparent reason or something like that, until then it was a very entertaining game and I think it´s pretty sad that the game seems prone to bug out, but I will try another run maybe soon.

Apart from that, from the gold box games I played I consider the first two Krynn games to be definitive favorites. Champions of Krynn is just an all about entertaining game, from the beginning to the end it just continued to be very interesting. Maybe that maze-like place was a bit too much, but that would be quite nitpicky now. And the different dragons are definitely fun, also they aren´t overused too much.

The seond game Death Knights I was a bit disappointed with when I played it for the first time; all the undead enemy types, which some of them being able to level drain, can unnerve you, and I found it bit strange that the draconians seem to have dissappeared for no apparent reasons-except for one type- which just seemed so weird, taking into account that they played such a major role in the first game. Maybe undead draconians should also have been there as an enemy type.?. But when I replayed it later, it just felt kinda better this time, can´t say exactly why. Level design is definitely once again top notch here. I would just take care that some of the fighters in the party get equipped with good blunt weapons so the skeletal warriors become less of a problem.

But Dark Queen I just can barely stand, not only is every major battle more or less dependant on your mages casting the (delayed) fireballs as quickly as possible, the maps also seem to drag on forever. The first caves with all those draconians and other strange creatures I felt was too long, but then the underwater levels immediately afterwards... omg, it felt like forever to get past these. I mean it´s a good idea and such.. but really just tooo long imo... When my party finally arrived at the world map, I entered the light house (as that seems to be the place the player should investige next) but, once again, endless battles against samey enemies and the lighthouse itself kinda felt just too mazey.. Don´t remember why exactly, but I lost all interest to play futher when I stumbled somewhere in the light house.

I tried Gateway and, apart from continous samey enemies at set locations, the game felt pretty solid to me, haven´t really played much further that the first few parts. What I find a bit off-putting is that every step in the outworld takes half a day?! Hmm, I guess the answer is probably no, but still out of curiosity, does it have any bad effects if you walk around for, like years or so? Do the charcters die of old age eventually or something like that?

 

[Ladonna]

But Dark Queen I just can barely stand, not only is every major battle more or less dependant on your mages casting the (delayed) fireballs as quickly as possible, the maps also seem to drag on forever. The first caves with all those draconians and other strange creatures I felt was too long, but then the underwater levels immediately afterwards... omg, it felt like forever to get past these. I mean it´s a good idea and such.. but really just tooo long imo... When my party finally arrived at the world map, I entered the light house (as that seems to be the place the player should investige next) but, once again, endless battles against samey enemies and the lighthouse itself kinda felt just too mazey.. Don´t remember why exactly, but I lost all interest to play futher when I stumbled somewhere in the light house.

High level ADnD Goldbox games. Some people love them, others loathe them. They are my least favourite of a great series of games. I prefer the level 1-8 and 8 to 12/15 campaigns.

I tried Gateway and, apart from continous samey enemies at set locations, the game felt pretty solid to me, haven´t really played much further that the first few parts. What I find a bit off-putting is that every step in the outworld takes half a day?! Hmm, I guess the answer is probably no, but still out of curiosity, does it have any bad effects if you walk around for, like years or so? Do the charcters die of old age eventually or something like that?

No consequences that I have seen. Cast Haste as much as you want.

 

[Cael]

Quite astonished to see that PoR has an actual world map lol, I never made it that far because the game bugged out for me after having played it for about half-way through or so (?) I think the stats of my chars went totally crazy for no apparent reason or something like that, until then it was a very entertaining game and I think it´s pretty sad that the game seems prone to bug out, but I will try another run maybe soon.

Apart from that, from the gold box games I played I consider the first two Krynn games to be definitive favorites. Champions of Krynn is just an all about entertaining game, from the beginning to the end it just continued to be very interesting. Maybe that maze-like place was a bit too much, but that would be quite nitpicky now. And the different dragons are definitely fun, also they aren´t overused too much.

The seond game Death Knights I was a bit disappointed with when I played it for the first time; all the undead enemy types, which some of them being able to level drain, can unnerve you, and I found it bit strange that the draconians seem to have dissappeared for no apparent reasons-except for one type- which just seemed so weird, taking into account that they played such a major role in the first game. Maybe undead draconians should also have been there as an enemy type.?. But when I replayed it later, it just felt kinda better this time, can´t say exactly why. Level design is definitely once again top notch here. I would just take care that some of the fighters in the party get equipped with good blunt weapons so the skeletal warriors become less of a problem.

But Dark Queen I just can barely stand, not only is every major battle more or less dependant on your mages casting the (delayed) fireballs as quickly as possible, the maps also seem to drag on forever. The first caves with all those draconians and other strange creatures I felt was too long, but then the underwater levels immediately afterwards... omg, it felt like forever to get past these. I mean it´s a good idea and such.. but really just tooo long imo... When my party finally arrived at the world map, I entered the light house (as that seems to be the place the player should investige next) but, once again, endless battles against samey enemies and the lighthouse itself kinda felt just too mazey.. Don´t remember why exactly, but I lost all interest to play futher when I stumbled somewhere in the light house.

I tried Gateway and, apart from continous samey enemies at set locations, the game felt pretty solid to me, haven´t really played much further that the first few parts. What I find a bit off-putting is that every step in the outworld takes half a day?! Hmm, I guess the answer is probably no, but still out of curiosity, does it have any bad effects if you walk around for, like years or so? Do the charcters die of old age eventually or something like that?

You can't have undead draconians for obvious reasons...

 

[Desiderius]

DKK Open World Map makes the game.

Skomp!

 

[Dorateen]

No consequences that I have seen. Cast Haste as much as you want.

Haste ages the character one year. Whether or not that has any negative effects down the road, I don't know. But I used haste sparingly on human characters, while long-lived demi-human races were hastened with little regard.

Desiderius I agree, the open world exploration of Death Knights is right up there behind Pool of Radiance. With various fun and interesting locations, characters, random encounters and even a Dave's Challenge dungeon to be discovered.

 

[Ladonna]

DKK Open World Map makes the game.

Skomp!

Yeah, I had forgotten about DKK. The extra content makes up almost a third of the game.

 

[pjs]

After completing SSB I noticed I needed to get some equipment for the two upcoming ranger/mages from the vault, but after completion, everyone was already in victory celebration. So I may need to reload before the final fight to obtain the equipment and maybe also do some additional XP grinding for POD. There are many spots in SSB where you can get 10-15K xp by fighting giants and such battles are over very quickly (a fireball or two and then autorun with quick). Maybe I'll do some because I don't recall how easy it is in the beginning of POD (need to get some 400K XP to unlock the final two ranger/mages).

Just finished PoD with champion. All the mage/rangers, mage/paladin and mage/cleric reached mage level 32, the cleric/mage was 39/14 (mage 14 not very useful offensively but at least it could do self-buffs). I had expected that the game would more difficult (I have previously played with easier difficulty levels), but I suppose the super-optimized characters helped a lot. (DQK is more difficult and requires more care when, for example, most spellcasters come into combat with defensive spells active while in POD they don't.) Even the POD end battles were rather easy (finished it with the first try): when you can buff every character with mage-only buffs (like globe of invulnerability, fire shield, etc.) and almost everyone could cast deadly DBF's, I don't think I even got any significant damage in the first battle (even without running around the corner). The second battle against beholders was also very easy. The last one I should have ducked to cover around a corner and it got somewhat messy. The biggest nuisance there was the shortage of arrows (and I forgot to redistribute most of them to the characters with fine long bows; I suppose I should have brought non-magical arrows along to Bane's realm).

Looking back, the timing and selection of dual-classing seemed to be close to optimal, and I probably would not have changed a thing. I suppose an even more hardcore option would have been to try to run paladin and rangers longer and dual-class them only at the start of POD (at level 17 rather than 13/15 in SSB). But then lots of more XP would have been lost in SSB and the start of POD would have been more difficult, and the characters would not have reached the same mage levels at the end of POD.

 

[Cael]

After completing SSB I noticed I needed to get some equipment for the two upcoming ranger/mages from the vault, but after completion, everyone was already in victory celebration. So I may need to reload before the final fight to obtain the equipment and maybe also do some additional XP grinding for POD. There are many spots in SSB where you can get 10-15K xp by fighting giants and such battles are over very quickly (a fireball or two and then autorun with quick). Maybe I'll do some because I don't recall how easy it is in the beginning of POD (need to get some 400K XP to unlock the final two ranger/mages).

Just finished PoD with champion. All the mage/rangers, mage/paladin and mage/cleric reached mage level 32, the cleric/mage was 39/14 (mage 14 not very useful offensively but at least it could do self-buffs). I had expected that the game would more difficult (I have previously played with easier difficulty levels), but I suppose the super-optimized characters helped a lot. (DQK is more difficult and requires more care when, for example, most spellcasters come into combat with defensive spells active while in POD they don't.) Even the POD end battles were rather easy (finished it with the first try): when you can buff every character with mage-only buffs (like globe of invulnerability, fire shield, etc.) and almost everyone could cast deadly DBF's, I don't think I even got any significant damage in the first battle (even without running around the corner). The second battle against beholders was also very easy. The last one I should have ducked to cover around a corner and it got somewhat messy. The biggest nuisance there was the shortage of arrows (and I forgot to redistribute most of them to the characters with fine long bows; I suppose I should have brought non-magical arrows along to Bane's realm).

Looking back, the timing and selection of dual-classing seemed to be close to optimal, and I probably would not have changed a thing. I suppose an even more hardcore option would have been to try to run paladin and rangers longer and dual-class them only at the start of POD (at level 17 rather than 13/15 in SSB). But then lots of more XP would have been lost in SSB and the start of POD would have been more difficult, and the characters would not have reached the same mage levels at the end of POD.

Dualling out of fighter types when you get the second attack is optimal. There is no reason to go higher.

 

[pjs]

Dualling out of fighter types when you get the second attack is optimal. There is no reason to go higher.

To be exact, warrior types have THAC0 8 at level 13, 6 at 15 and 4 at 17 (the cap in PoD). So you could get additional +2 or +4 to hit by going further. However, with all other bonuses (such as girdles or using enlarge, magical weapons, other buffs in major battles), you almost always hit the foes and the only ones you sometimes miss are the rare bosses in -10 range such as gothmenes, kalistes etc., so in practise not a huge deal. Level 17 also gets 1-2 points better saving throws compared to 13/15 (but mages ultimately have better throws in rod/wand/spell and death). Paladin and ranger also get some very minor spell improvements. Running a paladin to 17 could also give a benefit of 8 extra HPs. So while there are some small benefits, the disadvantages almost certainly outweigh the benefits.

 

[DaveO]

Do you all think scouting and thieving was done better in Wizard's Crown/eternal dagger or Gold Box. I liked the actual hide option. I never cared too much for the gold box backstabbing. Chuck in a flim-flam rogue skill to get better prices... lol... ahahahaha... like you won't have millions or billions of gold/platinum and magic items. Your bank will overflow and mules will cry.

Speaking from the Crown/Dagger experience with no Gold Box under my belt yet...
Scouting/thievery was a LOT more useful in these proto Gold Box games. Your thieves scout, ambush enemies, get prices for selling stuff, and sneaking is handled a lot better. Granted, the enemies had a pretty good chance to spot you easily in both Wizard's Crown or Eternal Dagger, but that does not apply if you get Mass Invisibility off and the enamy cannot use Dispel Magic.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Yeah, i loved it. Shard of spring had its own take on this as well. Learn to hate spellcasters.

 

[Dick]

You can't have undead draconians for obvious reasons...

Well I may not have thouroghly delved into the lore of the Krynn series, but at first and subsequent glances, I didn´t see any hindrance for this. They are made of blood and bones, after all, so why not..

 

[Erebus]

Well I may not have thouroghly delved into the lore of the Krynn series, but at first and subsequent glances, I didn´t see any hindrance for this. They are made of blood and bones, after all, so why not..

When they die, Baaz turn to stone, Kapak dissolve into acid, Bozak explode and Aurak also explode.

 

[Dorateen]

You can't have undead draconians for obvious reasons...

Well I may not have thouroghly delved into the lore of the Krynn series, but at first and subsequent glances, I didn´t see any hindrance for this. They are made of blood and bones, after all, so why not..

It is interesting to theorize about. Draconians are made from the corrupted eggs of metallic (good aligned) dragons. I suppose as such, draconians could be subjected to the same transformation process as dracoliches. Would make for unique enemies, that's for sure.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Most die oddly and its uncertain is they could be instantly transformed into such. Do they have souls/spirits. Would the Dark Queen even permit it?

Consider some of the Ravenloft undead like zombie lords, ghoul lords, etc and their abilities. What of ghost, specter, and energy draining? Siviks don't appear to have an odd death. AWESOME IDEA THOUGHT! Yeah, i'll look into this.

 

[Dick]

Anyway, I once again tried Gateway to the Savage Frontier, and while I did try a run some months ago, this time I intended to play further, and I beat the game. It was definitely not a bad experience at all. Here are some more or less random remarks and thoughts I have about this game:

-The game is technically much more advanced than Pool of Radiance, the other low level goldbox game.. This may be obvious, but I felt that one has to have played some of the other goldbox games beforehand in order to really appreciate this one
-Along with this, the game features nice artwork throughout the game
-Being able to dual-class can make evem a low-level party very strong very soon
-The economy is not as broken as in most of the other goldbox games. Only towards the end did the economy feel moving downturn, but it was still not too bad (compared to the other games...)
-The game kind of expects the player to try to find the right way leading to the progression of the story. This felt a bit weird in the beginning, but once you are getting accustomed to this, the game does feel much more open-world (which it kinda already is in a way). It´s still a challenge not to consult the clue book, and I still looked it up myself sometimes because I didn´t want to bear extra time searching through certain mazes or whatnot... but there are quite some "flavor aspects" in the game in which the player can engage or not. I thoght it was quite well designed.

-After some enemies (more towards the end of the game) diseased a char in my party, I cast a "Cure Disease" spell on him and he seemed ok. But the character had lost some STR while being diseased, and that attribute wouldn´t return to his normal value, untiil I cast "Enlarge" on him. After the initial effect of the Enlarge spell had worn off, that character would regain his normal STR value.
-The Shambilng Mounds towards the end left some strange treasure after defeat. Every one of them left a Plate Mail + 3, an Ioun Stone, a Displacer Cloak, a magical crossbow and I think a Broad Sword + 1 (afair) behind as loot. This felt strange, because this doesnt´t feel intended from the game designers, and even the official clue book doesn´t mention these items....

 

[ProphetSword]

-The Shambilng Mounds towards the end left some strange treasure after defeat. Every one of them left a Plate Mail + 3, an Ioun Stone, a Displacer Cloak, a magical crossbow and I think a Broad Sword + 1 (afair) behind as loot. This felt strange, because this doesnt´t feel intended from the game designers, and even the official clue book doesn´t mention these items....

Sounds like a bug.

I suppose it's possible the Shambling Mounds all engulfed identically equipped evil agents who were dispatched to kill your party. In that case, you really screwed up by killing creatures that were trying to communicate in their own way that they wanted to be allies.