Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order - action adventure from Respawn Entertainment

[Zibniyat]

Star Wars KOTOR II non-patched

You didn't play with the the restored content patch? Why not?

Hmmm... how should I put it? The game was made and released in a state that it was. Every game scales-down during development, and the final product is how it was meant to be. Cramming content, even quality content, for the sake of quantity is ruinous. When I played KOTOR II for the first time I felt like nothing was missing; exception being more polish that would do away with some bugs. But I still finished the game, and played it for additional 4-5 times more over the years, and I still think it does not lack any content. Less is more.

I also hear the restored content patch affects the plot and characters. Unacceptable. I remember, cited via a local gaming magazine, that even Chris Avellone said how, paraphrasing now, "sometimes scaling down leads to a better final product, and restored content is nice but not necessary". Can't find the quote, I tried multiple times over the years, so I guess you will have to trust me, or don't.

As it stands now on its own, with an occasional bug, and not merely "despite" cut content, but in fact "thanks to" culling the excess, we have a brilliant work of a game. Any alteration would not make it how it is now, and there is no guarantee that it would actually be better.

For the record, I did try to play with the patch. I do not remember why I dropped the game, but I also do not care. It is good just the way it is and I would not wish to alter it despite its (supposed) flaws.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

When I played KOTOR II for the first time I felt like nothing was missing;

basically the entire end of the game was cut lol

 

[Zibniyat]

Not a single piece of art or entertainment, in fact not a single piece of anything that man makes, is flawless.

ADOM is flawless

It has 88% on Steam. I don't take that as an objective measure of quality, but it is reasonable to assume that at least some players found some flaws in it. Thus not a 10/10 by your criteria. Like I said, nothing's flawless that man has made and we can conclude this discussion here.

When I played KOTOR II for the first time I felt like nothing was missing;

basically the entire end of the game was cut lol

And the end result was excellent. Clearly, the desired end was crammed with superfluous options, and once the excess was removed we were left with 2 of the 3 most significant encounters within the game... significant in many ways. Like I said, I don't care what was cut from what and why, I only care about what I got. And I got a brilliant game. Good enough for me.

 

[J1M]

Spoiler

The idea of Vader being an unstoppable superpowerful being was something created by fandom, because in the movies he was a fucked-up frankenstein

Literally what?
At the age of 19 — while still a padawan — he dueled Count Dooku six times. The first was a loss(but held up for quite a while), followed by four stalemates(each increasingly worse for Dooku), followed by Anakin beating Dooku.
Count Dooku was considered to be one of the best lightsaber duelists in existence. He was on par with Yoda, and along with Yoda is the only other person to be known to have best Windu while sparring.
The only reason Kenobi beat Anakin was because of Anakin's arrogance combined with Kenobi being the master of the soresu form(a highly defensive fighting style) which allowed him to stall long enough for Anakin to make mistakes. No other Jedi would have been capable of beating him, none.

None of this is even touching EU stuff.

Okay, but then his arms and legs burnt off.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

KotOR 2 is one of the two most overrated games on codex (the other one is FNV).

 

[DalekFlay]

Hmmm... how should I put it? The game was made and released in a state that it was. Every game scales-down during development, and the final product is how it was meant to be. Cramming content, even quality content, for the sake of quantity is ruinous. When I played KOTOR II for the first time I felt like nothing was missing; exception being more polish that would do away with some bugs. But I still finished the game, and played it for additional 4-5 times more over the years, and I still think it does not lack any content. Less is more.

I've been playing KotOR 2 the last couple weeks believe it or not, and with the restored mod for the first time. Pretty much every time I look up what was restored after finishing an area it was something annoying that didn't need to be there. It pads out the game for no real benefit for the most part. Even the added dialog often feels superfluous and edited in.

That said I'm not at the ending yet, which is supposedly where the good stuff is.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Spoiler

The idea of Vader being an unstoppable superpowerful being was something created by fandom, because in the movies he was a fucked-up frankenstein

Literally what?
At the age of 19 — while still a padawan — he dueled Count Dooku six times. The first was a loss(but held up for quite a while), followed by four stalemates(each increasingly worse for Dooku), followed by Anakin beating Dooku.
Count Dooku was considered to be one of the best lightsaber duelists in existence. He was on par with Yoda, and along with Yoda is the only other person to be known to have best Windu while sparring.
The only reason Kenobi beat Anakin was because of Anakin's arrogance combined with Kenobi being the master of the soresu form(a highly defensive fighting style) which allowed him to stall long enough for Anakin to make mistakes. No other Jedi would have been capable of beating him, none.

None of this is even touching EU stuff.

Okay, but then his arms and legs burnt off.

Darth Vader was more powerful than Anakin. Vader was so fast and so strong with the force he was capable of sensing the Emperor's moves before they happened, and intercepting them.

With preternatural speed the Emperor drew, ignited, and slashed at the girl with his lightsaber, but Vader had sensed his Master’s intent and moved with greater speed, igniting his own blade and intercepting his Master’s blow before it could land.

The thought that Vader becomes weaker after putting on the suit is a common one but has no basis in the canon. His power only grew as he became older, and he was easily the strongest warrior in the entire galaxy. Palpatine only (arguably) surpassed him in mastery of the force.

 

[Fairfax]

Darth Vader was more powerful than Anakin. Vader was so fast and so strong with the force he was capable of sensing the Emperor's moves before they happened, and intercepting them.

With preternatural speed the Emperor drew, ignited, and slashed at the girl with his lightsaber, but Vader had sensed his Master’s intent and moved with greater speed, igniting his own blade and intercepting his Master’s blow before it could land.

The thought that Vader becomes weaker after putting on the suit is a common one but has no basis in the canon. His power only grew as he became older, and he was easily the strongest warrior in the entire galaxy. Palpatine only (arguably) surpassed him in mastery of the force.

That's not true. Vader did become significantly weaker, which is why both Vader and the Emperor were so interested in converting Luke:

Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side.

At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Darth Vader was more powerful than Anakin. Vader was so fast and so strong with the force he was capable of sensing the Emperor's moves before they happened, and intercepting them.

With preternatural speed the Emperor drew, ignited, and slashed at the girl with his lightsaber, but Vader had sensed his Master’s intent and moved with greater speed, igniting his own blade and intercepting his Master’s blow before it could land.

The thought that Vader becomes weaker after putting on the suit is a common one but has no basis in the canon. His power only grew as he became older, and he was easily the strongest warrior in the entire galaxy. Palpatine only (arguably) surpassed him in mastery of the force.

That's not true. Vader did become significantly weaker, which is why both Vader and the Emperor were so interested in converting Luke:

Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side.

At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power.

you're citing material much older than mine, old canon means nothing
might as well cite EU

and really, the idea that vader is weaker with prosthetics is lol when grievous exists

 

[Fairfax]

you're citing material much older than mine, old canon means nothing
might as well cite EU

I'm quoting George Lucas. Disney books don't retcon the original films or anything he created, that's ridiculous.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

you're citing material much older than mine, old canon means nothing
might as well cite EU

I'm quoting George Lucas. Disney books don't retcon the original films or anything he created, that's ridiculous.

1. If George Lucas wanted to be the final word on canon he shouldn't have sold his rights.
2. You didn't understand his statement at all. He did not become weaker, his maximum potential was reduced. Vader was always stronger than Anakin. Always.
3. New canon Vader is not impaired by those limitations(refer to 1.)

VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

Lords of the Sith, 2015.

 

[J1M]

Gentlemen, let's not fight over fan fiction.

 

[JDR13]

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Gentlemen, let's not fight over fan fiction.

Shut up I'm winning

 

[Fairfax]

1. If George Lucas wanted to be the final word on canon he shouldn't have sold his rights.

Disney owning the IP doesn't change what happens on screen or what he wrote, neither does a Disney book from 2015.

2. You didn't understand his statement at all. He did not become weaker, his maximum potential was reduced. Vader was always stronger than Anakin. Always.

No, Lucas explicitly said Anakin lost a lot of the power of the Force, lost powers, and that he's debilitated. And in case that wasn't explicit enough:

And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

1. If George Lucas wanted to be the final word on canon he shouldn't have sold his rights.

Disney owning the IP doesn't change what happens on screen or what he wrote, neither does a Disney book from 2015.

2. You didn't understand his statement at all. He did not become weaker, his maximum potential was reduced. Vader was always stronger than Anakin. Always.

No, Lucas explicitly said Anakin lost a lot of the power of the Force, lost powers, and that he's debilitated. And in case that wasn't explicit enough:

And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

Your quote is not saying what you think it is saying.
Anakin was never stronger than the emperor, he had the potential to be stronger than him. His potential was stunted, he did not become weaker. He was like Darth Maul or Dooku in that he was now relegated to being a lapdog.
The emperor saw potential in him, the potential to be stronger.

Anakin on Mustafar was nowhere near his prime, he still had a lot of growing to do.

 

[Prime Junta]

As a whole, and despite its flaws, KOTOR II is a great game, 10/10. Its combat may be bad, but the quality of its characters, the plot, the breadth and depth of even philosophical and ethical themes it touches upon so much compensate for its flaws that giving it anything less than a 10/10 would be an injustice.

So what would the score have been with great combat, a thrilling endgame, and painstakingly finished and polished level and environment design?

 

[Zibniyat]

What a bothersome question. Not a single game is perfect in every way, and if perfection would be a requirement to rate a game 10/10, then no such game would exist and the rating of 10/10 would in practice amount to a hypocritical pretend-"expectation" (due to it being impossible).

And since I am not into such idiotic and convoluted philosophical positions, I shall feel free to accept 10/10 just as any other rating: possible and attainable. My position is both honest and reasonable.

A game is more than just a sum of its parts. Planetescape Tournament regularly wins first or second position in Codex polls, despite many explaining its very bad combat; for me it is a game with garbage writing as well, but whatever. And if a game that wins the first place regularly does not deserve to be rated 10/10, then such a rating truly is pointless.

KOTOR II's combat is serviceable, it is not the sole focus of the game; the focus is on character interactions, plot, overall story, philosophical and ethical considerations etc., which are all done exceptionally well. The end game is as "thrilling" as it could possibly be, I see no fault with it. Levels and environments, like combat, are subordinate to the plot and atmosphere: they are there to emphasise the encroaching evil, the oppressive and dreadful atmosphere of being hunted by a mysterious force able to extingush life on a galactic scale. Environments are not there to be admired to, although again they are good enough.

I rate games by the experience of enjoyment I had with them. I do not use some made-up equation to assess each and every part of a game separately, and then "calculate" the final rating. For characters and character interactions alone KOTOR II deserves at least a 9/10.

I do not fear giving games high ratings, if they deserve it. 1/10 to 10/10, all are just as possible to be given, assuming the game deserves them. Notwithstanding the flaws of any of the games.

 

[Prime Junta]

KOTOR 2 has obvious and easily remedied flaws. I have no doubt they would have been remedied with a somewhat more generous schedule and budget. In my view it is a classic flawed diamond — something that’s within sight of greatness but clearly falls short.

In my book it’s pretty far from a 10/10. In fact I’m not sure it would even make my personal top 10. Great writing alone doesn’t suffice.

 

[DalekFlay]

KOTOR 2 has obvious and easily remedied flaws. I have no doubt they would have been remedied with a somewhat more generous schedule and budget.

Yeah I think the rushed development created enough objective flaws (reused areas, story that feels like it's missing sections, lack of companion involvement outside a few) that a 10/10 just seems a little "WTF?" to most. You'd have a better argument with saying the first game was a 10/10 experience, because despite the more banal writing and whatnot it feels like a full and complete game.

That said anyone can give a 10 to anything, it's not like there are rules.

 

[Zibniyat]

Yeah, I am not gonna give a game I did not enjoy 10/10 even if by all objective criteria it deserves one.

I mean, I even gave FNV 7 or 8 I think on account of its objective strengths, but I also said that I did not particularly enjoy it (nor I can enjoy a post-apocalyptic setting based on alternative history) and that were I to take into account the enjoyment - it would get 5/10.

Anyway, to each their own. Game's strengths can be assessed objectively, but the final rating is always also a function of enjoyment one extracts from it, and thus the final rating is never objective, but subjective (not absolutely so mind you, but still).

For me, KOTOR II's strengths in its story, plot, characters and ethical and philosophical themes were a source of great both enjoyment and something more. Hence 10/10. People may disagree with me on account of their own experiences, and that is alright. I am not looking to "objectivise" (in an absolute sense) my subjective experience, but I do hope I pointed out some issues with purely mechanistic ratings that only pretend to be objective.

 

[JDR13]

Yeah, I am not gonna give a game I did not enjoy 10/10 even if by all objective criteria it deserves one.

I mean, I even gave FNV 7 or 8 I think on account of its objective strengths, but I also said that I did not particularly enjoy it (nor I can enjoy a post-apocalyptic setting based on alternative history) and that were I to take into account the enjoyment - it would get 5/10.

 

[Zibniyat]

 

[DalekFlay]

For me, KOTOR II's strengths in its story, plot, characters and ethical and philosophical themes were a source of great both enjoyment and something more. Hence 10/10. People may disagree with me on account of their own experiences, and that is alright. I am not looking to "objectivise" (in an absolute sense) my subjective experience, but I do hope I pointed out some issues with purely mechanistic ratings that only pretend to be objective.

Playing it recently, its plot is kinda... not great. The writing itself is good, dialogue and such, but the plot is kind of all over the place and not fleshed out. Darth Nihilus is a cool concept for example, but amounts to a wet fart with no impact. The "wound in the force" idea is cool but not properly built up to or shown. It all suffers so much from the rushed production and canceled plans, just like the areas and companions do. I honestly think most people spurge over the story/writing because of Kreia being that cool edgy character 90's kids craved. But... whatever, that's subjective and packed with 2020 hindsight.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Spoiler

SWTOR unironically has the best story of any of the TOR games.