Star Wars Star Wars: Kotor III is coming

[kris]

Alright.

I guess you understand discussing such things is difficult. But fine. Lets put it behind us. I will take the easiest possible route to discuss these things as I have previously and regularly pointed out, that message boards are not ideal platforms for efforts.

First:

When something is obviously presented to you as an open message, such that it does not take a lot of mental effort to unravel, I consider it kiddie stuff. Take for example Star wars original trilogy: Red sabers bad, green/blue sabers good. Its a straight play of the heroic tale for kids, where the daydreaming boy who is a underdog, finds that he has hidden powers and takes a grade in badass at the end, all the while being trained by oldy-von-moldy mentors, who die to provide the requisite motivation. There are the rebels and the empire. The righteous weak versus the faceless strong.

Its not BADLY MADE AT ALL. The point is that its intellectual message is for people who can at least read the Aesop's fables.

snip
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so with "Kiddie movie" you don't actually mean a movie for kids. You mean it is not subtle and sophisticated enough for your taste.

The adventure aspect you talk about is just about the most common adventure angle ever. Also more or less what most RPGs do.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Only that this has nothing to do with my Taste. It has to do with taste. How you ask? Long answer required. That is what I meant by being well read. Without exposing yourself to gret literature it is damnably difficult to understand what is great about it. That also only happens if you are willing AND capable of efforts,

 

[Mother Russia]

@Vaarna Aarne: That makes no sense. In fact, unsurprisingly, KOTOR II story makes no fucking sense at all. No wonder KOTOR was far more popular, and even story fags such as I liked it. Not because it was a great, or even good story, but that within the limits of that story it made sense. It had a beginning, a middle, and an end. Everything was resolved. There were no questions.

KOTOR II OTOH was an example of reach exceeding grasp majorly. Plus, they fucked up. First, if the Exile is a 'void', something that is not possible in SW as yo uare either a Force User or you are not, nothing mentioned about fucking 'voids', he should not be able to use the force. And no Vaarna, Exile can use the force even when he is not surrounded by force using party members, or when he is alone. So your bullshit story doesn't cut it. But nice attempt to bring sense to madness.

Also, Nihilus. They fucked up with him, even though up until then they were doing pretty good with him. I really liked the character. But then they made him drop like a fucking fly with a couple smacks with the lightsaber. What. The. Fuck. It seemed the writers did not get the SW movies. Let me explain, in the movies there is a clear heirarchy of force user: If someone is REALLY powerful with the force, they are also REALLY skilled with the lightsaber. Both go hand in hand, because both use the force. Lightsaber combatants use the force to forsee their opponents moves, and thus react to them. That's why they can block projectiles with sabers. So the stronger the force ability, the stronger the foresight, and the more skilled saber combatant.

Thus, Nihilus being strong enough to destroy planets with the force should have been the greatest saber dude of all time. But, unfortunately, he wasn't. They didn't even give him a super strong force power, or heck cheat with him like they did with the bald sith (make him keep coming back like a dumbfuck. He was also easy as pie to defeat)

Sadly, Obsidian is not only shit at gameplay and challenging and fun combat, they suck with story and presentation too, even though the 1st half of a game it does seem like they have a real winner, but then it all collapses.

Gaider always has the last laugh after all.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

Vaarna_Aarne, Andhaira felt the bizarre need to necro this thread to tell you how much he thinks the game sucks. Just letting ya' know as he's too stupid to remember how your username is properly spelled.

 

[Mother Russia]

 

[Quetzacoatl]

When did necroing threads out of nowhere become common practice? Did years go by my eyes that fast?

 

[Grunker]

What exactly is bad about necroing Quet? Except that most forums arbitrarily bans it for no reason at all?

 

[Quetzacoatl]

What exactly is bad about necroing Quet? Except that most forums arbitrarily bans it for no reason at all?

It's the lack of anything good in it that bothers the fuck out of me. Most of the time no renewal of discussion happens and the thread goes back to it's grave.

 

[Roguey]

Thus, Nihilus being strong enough to destroy planets with the force should have been the greatest saber dude of all time. But, unfortunately, he wasn't. They didn't even give him a super strong force power, or heck cheat with him like they did with the bald sith (make him keep coming back like a dumbfuck. He was also easy as pie to defeat)

I think you might have overlooked the part where Nihilus was hungry and expecting a nice force-heavy planet to devour, only to find nothing. And then he tried to eat the Exile and once again came up with nothing. This prevented him from being the uber character you wanted him to be.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Thus, Nihilus being strong enough to destroy planets with the force should have been the greatest saber dude of all time. But, unfortunately, he wasn't. They didn't even give him a super strong force power, or heck cheat with him like they did with the bald sith (make him keep coming back like a dumbfuck. He was also easy as pie to defeat)

I think you might have overlooked the part where Nihilus was hungry and expecting a nice force-heavy planet to devour, only to find nothing. And then he tried to eat the Exile and once again came up with nothing. This prevented him from being the uber character you wanted him to be.

Exactly. Nihilus was supposed to be an utter failure. Kreia tells you as much.

 

[Mother Russia]

So why couldn't he just kill the exile via lightsaber combat? If he so powerful he can destroy planets via the dark side, surely a puny jedi should be no match for him, hunger or not. Yes, they couldn't kill the exile because then it's game over, but Nihilus could have defeated him in lighsaber/force combat, and then use plot device to make him escape.

Also, Nihilus didn't use lightning storm or drain like he did to defeat Sion.

 

[Stinger]

Because Nihilus is a mindless beast who serves the force entirely. He exists as a criticism of the whole idea of "submitting to the force" something that's very prevalent in the Star Wars setting. As per Kotor 2 blindly submitting yourself to a nebulous energy with its own agenda makes you absolutely pathetic and less than human.

By contrast The Exile, through Kreia's teachings, criticises and forms their own values and beliefs regarding their stance on the Force. As such they have become far more empowered.

More broadly Nihilus is the Last Man to Exile's Ubermensch. The complete pawn of society/the Force compared to The Exile forming their own moral code. Nihilus getting completely stomped out by Exile is the whole point. He's not the badass you think he is and Sion and Traya are far more difficult, proper boss battles.

Ok now that the thematic stuff is out of the way on a practical level Nihilus's force powers failed cause the Exile is the void and he was defeated in lightsaber battle because...well he was so overly reliant on his devouring abilities or maybe Exile is just better at that too- what if it's really that simple. Removing Nihilus's force powers leaves a very ordinary Sith with a lightsaber hence Visas's "Just a man" comment. I mean claiming something like:

Let me explain, in the movies there is a clear heirarchy of force user: If someone is REALLY powerful with the force, they are also REALLY skilled with the lightsaber. Both go hand in hand, because both use the force.

Is kinda silly because that's Star Wars movie logic and the entire point of Kotor 2 exists to subvert, question and criticise the frequent stupidity in Star Wars logic and in doing so actually enhance the setting as a result, and boy was Star Wars so much more interesting after Kotor 2 and before Kotor 2 was conveniently retconned.

Not to mention I'm not even sure if that's even true in the setting. Kotor series had Jedi classes like Consular and Guardian and Consular was focused on force powers while guardian focused on lightsabre talents. According to that system being good at one side didn't mean you were uber at the other too.

 

[Darklife]

I for one liked Kotor's II plot, although it was very muddled at times. Nihlus was a very interesting character, although I guess they could have revealed more about his origins and the entire triumvirate with Sion and Kreia. I also never really understood how exactly three Sith were able to wreak such havoc on the Republic.

I have to say that the entire force plot flew over my head entirely.

 

[Mother Russia]

Because Nihilus is a mindless beast who serves the force entirely. He exists as a criticism of the whole idea of "submitting to the force" something that's very prevalent in the Star Wars setting. As per Kotor 2 blindly submitting yourself to a nebulous energy with its own agenda makes you absolutely pathetic and less than human.

By contrast The Exile, through Kreia's teachings, criticises and forms their own values and beliefs regarding their stance on the Force. As such they have become far more empowered.

More broadly Nihilus is the Last Man to Exile's Ubermensch. The complete pawn of society/the Force compared to The Exile forming their own moral code. Nihilus getting completely stomped out by Exile is the whole point. He's not the badass you think he is and Sion and Traya are far more difficult, proper boss battles.

Ok now that the thematic stuff is out of the way on a practical level Nihilus's force powers failed cause the Exile is the void and he was defeated in lightsaber battle because...well he was so overly reliant on his devouring abilities or maybe Exile is just better at that too- what if it's really that simple. Removing Nihilus's force powers leaves a very ordinary Sith with a lightsaber hence Visas's "Just a man" comment. I mean claiming something like:

Let me explain, in the movies there is a clear heirarchy of force user: If someone is REALLY powerful with the force, they are also REALLY skilled with the lightsaber. Both go hand in hand, because both use the force.

Is kinda silly because that's Star Wars movie logic and the entire point of Kotor 2 exists to subvert, question and criticise the frequent stupidity in Star Wars logic and in doing so actually enhance the setting as a result, and boy was Star Wars so much more interesting after Kotor 2 and before Kotor 2 was conveniently retconned.

Not to mention I'm not even sure if that's even true in the setting. Kotor series had Jedi classes like Consular and Guardian and Consular was focused on force powers while guardian focused on lightsabre talents. According to that system being good at one side didn't mean you were uber at the other too.

Good post Stinger. Here is what I have to say:

Nihilus defeated Sion. Ofcourse, Sion got back up, but then he didn't attack Nihilus again, because Nihilus would have destroyed him yet again. So I think it is apparent Nihilus is superior to Sion.

Anyhow, this entire 'wound' in the force is baloney IMO, and an attempt by the writers at Obsidian to be grimdark and 'unique'. Thinking logically, within the contrains of the SW universe, there is no way to 'wound' the force. The force is an energy field surrounding all living things...how can you wound that? How can you wound something you cannot see or affect?

Also, no one says in the movies you should submit to the force, they simply say use the force, and depend on the force.

Nihilus also seemed to be in total command of his actions. He just seemed to have a need to suck planets dry to drain their power, and got addicted to it like someone on Heroin. Take heroin away from an addict, and he becomes weak and lethargic. Nowhere could you see that Nihilus was controlled by something or someone else. Also, he beat the shit out of Traya (techniques in the force against which there is no defence) really easily. (and why did he not use that technique on the Exile? Massive plot hole right there...but yeah I guess cuz he was 'teh wound' it wouldn't have worked on it. Yeah, that is not an excuse, it is a mary sue plot device that screams out BAD WRITING)

The main argument I am trying to make here is that once again, Nihilus is an example of reach exceeding grasp. Obsidian should never have made him so powerful he could destroy planets by himself without ensuring they had a gameplan worked out wherein he could be defeated and that it would make sense. There is a reason Sidious in the movies did not have that kind of power, because Lucas knew he would open up an entire can of worms if he showed Sidious doing something really wack, like destroying planets. People would say why the fuck he needed to hide in the shadows then if he could just have destroyed Coruscant and all Jedi on it. etc etc.

Oh and btw, about Visas's line you quote" He was just a man" Wasn' Nihilus supposed to be non Human? If not, why could he not speak in basic?

 

[Papa Môlé]

Modern games aren't really *that* bad in my opinion. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Witcher, Skyrim etc. aren't terrible games. It's that they just aren't inspiring either, which is probably exactly what KOTOR3 will be. A big "meh good what for it is I guess" like everything else. Being big industry games now are all very homogenized like all other big industry products. You don't get truly creative things anymore like our beloved Arcanums and Fallouts (not from the big boys anyway) but what Codex seems to forget or gloss over is you don't really get so many atrocious turds like you used to back in the day.

I mean look how many dufuses make a living complaining about how shitty so many old Nintendo games were. The only recent gen mainstream game that I found as bad as the Codex counter-hype was Oblivion but even that was much more playable then some of the 8-bit droppings I'd see back when I was kid. And when I say playable I mean the game actually ran for the most part.

I actually just started playing both the first KOTOR and Mass Effect since I'm on a space kick and I don't really see what the big deal is either way. They don't suck as much as the Codex thinks and they certaintly aren't as great as metacritic wants me to believe either. I feel like Codex needs to overstate it's case to justify its existence or at least it's constant chatter about new AAA stuff instead of just shifting to talking about old and/or indie games only. Threads like this are always going on forever here though for some damn reason and it gets really tedious to keep hearing the same narratives about new shit over and over. It seems like forced drama to pretend like there is some grand epic struggle for the forces of decline vs. incline going on when it's just the much more banal reality that most things are inevitably going to be average.

 

[asper]

Sorry, when you play Fallout 1, Planescape:Torment, or Arcanum, and then play Mass Effect or Skyrim, you immediately see the latter games are total shit. The Codex is not overstating anything.

A thought experiment. Picture how the future of gaming looks when you consider Thief, System Shock, Master of Orion/Magic, Civilisation, Ultima Underworld, Ultima 7, Wizardry 8, UFO:AI / EU, Jagged Alliance 2, Tie Fighter, Elite: Frontier, Midwinter... And I don't mean in an aesthetic or subjective sense; I mean on a conceptual level: game mechanics, content, ideas, exploration of the medium. What future were those games heralding? This has nothing to do with taste, just look at development of game complexity, to even name one thing.

And now just look what we ended up with.

Yeah.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Modern games aren't really *that* bad in my opinion. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Witcher, Skyrim etc. aren't terrible games. It's that they just aren't inspiring either, which is probably exactly what KOTOR3 will be. A big "meh good what for it is I guess" like everything else. Being big industry games now are all very homogenized like all other big industry products. You don't get truly creative things anymore like our beloved Arcanums and Fallouts (not from the big boys anyway) but what Codex seems to forget or gloss over is you don't really get so many atrocious turds like you used to back in the day.

I mean look how many dufuses make a living complaining about how shitty so many old Nintendo games were. The only recent gen mainstream game that I found as bad as the Codex counter-hype was Oblivion but even that was much more playable then some of the 8-bit droppings I'd see back when I was kid. And when I say playable I mean the game actually ran for the most part.

I actually just started playing both the first KOTOR and Mass Effect since I'm on a space kick and I don't really see what the big deal is either way. They don't suck as much as the Codex thinks and they certaintly aren't as great as metacritic wants me to believe either. I feel like Codex needs to overstate it's case to justify its existence or at least it's constant chatter about new AAA stuff instead of just shifting to talking about old and/or indie games only. Threads like this are always going on forever here though for some damn reason and it gets really tedious to keep hearing the same narratives about new shit over and over. It seems like forced drama to pretend like there is some grand epic struggle for the forces of decline vs. incline going on when it's just the much more banal reality that most things are inevitably going to be average.

Even shittiness has declined.

 

[commie]

Sorry, when you play Fallout 1, Planescape:Torment, or Arcanum, and then play Mass Effect or Skyrim, you immediately see the latter games are total shit. The Codex is not overstating anything.

A thought experiment. Picture how the future of gaming looks when you consider Thief, System Shock, Master of Orion/Magic, Civilisation, Ultima Underworld, Ultima 7, Wizardry 8, UFO:AI / EU, Jagged Alliance 2, Tie Fighter, Elite: Frontier, Midwinter... And I don't mean in an aesthetic or subjective sense; I mean on a conceptual level: game mechanics, content, ideas, exploration of the medium. What future were those games heralding? This has nothing to do with taste, just look at development of game complexity, to even name one thing.

And now just look what we ended up with.

Yeah.

This to a point. Though there is some merit to the thought that modern games aren't total shit just that they are indeed as Papa Mole says; just bland and uninspiring. Often the modern games are a lot more technically accomplished, better interface, ease of interaction(not to be confused with dumbing down. Those that have played those early 90's games with their indecipherable wall of icons and faux windows interface will know what a pain in the arse they often were, making playing a chore even as the ideas in the game itself were very good). I don't mind many modern games, but I'm just not all that enthused while playing them. I don't think about what I've experienced with a big smile on my face or sense of 'fuck yeah that was great' that I had after finishing Thief or Outcast or SS2 or M&M or Pandora Directive. I used to wonder if it was just cause I'm older now, but recently I couldn't tear myself away from the computer with my Thief 1 and 2 marathon. Every time I stopped, I just couldn't wait to go back, something I haven't done with 95% of games that have been released in the last decade.

 

[Stinger]

Nihilus defeated Sion. Ofcourse, Sion got back up, but then he didn't attack Nihilus again, because Nihilus would have destroyed him yet again. So I think it is apparent Nihilus is superior to Sion.

It's more of an unstoppable force/immovable object situation. Neither of them are "superior" to each other, when they fight they just end up in a stalemate where one side will rail on the other with immense power and not actually stop the other.

Anyhow, this entire 'wound' in the force is baloney IMO, and an attempt by the writers at Obsidian to be grimdark and 'unique'. Thinking logically, within the contrains of the SW universe, there is no way to 'wound' the force. The force is an energy field surrounding all living things...how can you wound that? How can you wound something you cannot see or affect?

Thematically the Exile exists outside of the 2 dimensional morality of Star Wars, in a sense they are neither light or dark sided as they don't embody the archetypical traits of either side and even when they are called Light Sided or Dark Sided within the rules of the game it's more like two different interpretations of a moral stance on the force. Being such an aberration in the Star Wars setting, i.e. an actually complex character that doesn't wholly fit a stereotype, the Exile effectively is an unnatural 'Void' in the nebulous energy that governs the setting. Many of their companions also exhibit these traits, i.e. well fleshed out and interesting characters that subvert basic archetypes, and can become the Exile's students. In other words, it's all very meta.

But it sounds like you don't care on a thematic level so here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wound_in_the_Force

Is the Wookiepedia article on the concept, it's very boring and strips away all the interesting elements to explain it all in a very mundane and dry soft sci fi tone that fits with the setting Lucas established so maybe that'll clear it up for you.

Also, no one says in the movies you should submit to the force, they simply say use the force, and depend on the force.

Depending on the force is much the same thing. At the end of A New Hope Obi Wan basically just says "Don't use your aiming device, just believe in the Force and let it do it for you" it's all very pathetic and doesn't allow Luke to do things on his own, instead submitting to some preordained destiny.

As for the rest of the Nihilus rant, I've already largely explained the point of all that...it's ultimately up to you to decide if it works for you. Also in Drew Crappishin's novel: 'Retcon Revan' the true Sith emperor has Nihilus's powers without any of the drawbacks. Hell, Drew conveniently ignores the fact that the Sith Emperor is a retread of Nihilus and Meetra doesn't even notice that. Star Wars EU is pretty much full of ridiculously overpowered Jedi and Sith and Nihilus is fairly standard in that regard, what he does have that sets him apart is the interesting criticism of the Force that comes up thanks to his existence.

Oh and btw, about Visas's line you quote" He was just a man" Wasn' Nihilus supposed to be non Human? If not, why could he not speak in basic?

No it just means that Nihilus gave into the force and became a mindless beast. He wasn't human and instead just had some guttural grunting. When he's killed off all that's left after the Force is done with him is an empty husk.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Stinger 4 Codex Prez

 

[Turjan]

Depending on the force is much the same thing. At the end of A New Hope Obi Wan basically just says "Don't use your aiming device, just believe in the Force and let it do it for you" it's all very pathetic and doesn't allow Luke to do things on his own, instead submitting to some preordained destiny.

I'm pretty sure it was exactly not meant this way in the original Star Wars film. Obi Wan says "Use the Force, Luke." It's a tool, a newfound sense. Something you use, not something that uses you. The destiny baggage came later, because "destiny" sounds "epic".

But concepts like this changed all the time in Lukas' films and other material, according to his daily whims. It's as if he had an active dislike for internal consistency. And I still think the "wound in the force" concept is inrcedibly stupid, even if everything in Kotor II after this makes perfect sense, if you accept the stupid premise. But then again, we have stuff like the Yuuzhan Vong.

 

[Endemic]

Doesn't Obi-Wan sense the deaths of everyone on Alderaan from the other side of the galaxy? Is that not symptomatic of a "wound in the Force"? He even mentions hearing the people's screams. Zez Kai Ell says something similar on Dantooine about the destruction wrought at Malachor by the Exile. Not to mention a good portion of the game is set aside to discuss whether the Exile's actions during the Mandalorian Wars were justified.

 

[Stinger]

Yeah the logic of the Wound in the force within the setting is the idea that it represents a massacre of massive proportions and that so many people have died that the Force is effectively "wounded". The Exile's Hiroshima like event on Malachor V is supposed to be what turns them into the Wound in the force or something. It's explained in the article I posted:

Wounds in the Force were created whenever a massive loss of life occurred. All life in the galaxy was interconnected and when a significant number of lives were suddenly ended, the Force sustained a localized injury much like a sentient who had lost a limb. The epicenter of the wound became a dark place, filled with the reverberating echoes of the pain, terror, and suffering of the life forms who had lost their lives. Wounds in the Force were most often centered in astrographical locations where traumatic events took place, such as Malachor V or Alderaan, but they could also form within individuals such as Meetra Surik THE EXILE or Darth Nihilus.

I think the Wound in the Force stuff works fine because it's got a mundane explanation within the setting and it's already been used before like in Alderaan. The difference is that Avellone takes it and twists into metacommentary on the nature of the setting and RPGs in general- much like Kreia tries to twist the Exile for her own agenda I suppose.

I'm pretty sure it was exactly not meant this way in the original Star Wars film. Obi Wan says "Use the Force, Luke." It's a tool, a newfound sense. Something you use, not something that uses you. The destiny baggage came later, because "destiny" sounds "epic".

Yeah it's been a while since I've seen A New Hope. As you've said, it's constantly been twisted and changed around but the idea of blind faith in the Force is one that's prevalent in the Star Wars movies and especially EU, there's no denying that. And Nihilus serves as an example of what kind of creature you'd become if you gave into something that treats everyone like pawns in some strange approach to 'balance'.

 

[Turjan]

Doesn't Obi-Wan sense the deaths of everyone on Alderaan from the other side of the galaxy? Is that not symptomatic of a "wound in the Force"? He even mentions hearing the people's screams. Zez Kai Ell says something similar on Dantooine about the destruction wrought at Malachor by the Exile. Not to mention a good portion of the game is set aside to discuss whether the Exile's actions during the Mandalorian Wars were justified.

Sure, but these are different effects. In the case of Alderaan, it's the reverberance of a negative event within the force. It's an effect that is transported by the force. It's definitely not like something as the complete absence of force within the Exile (which blinds Nihilus with regard to the Exile), which, for some weird reason, still allows use of the force from outside sources.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Actually, the Mass Shadow Generator was not what created the Wound in the Force. In the end it wasn't a cataclysmic event or anything like that what caused it, it was just one man being so afraid of what he had done. The Exile felt what Obi-Wan did, but unlike Obi-Wan he could not handle it and the fact those million screams in his head were all his own fault. In his fear and panic the Exile somehow managed to cut himself off from the Force through force of will. That's the big thing, the Exile was never anyone special before, it was nothing but an event he was never equipped to handle with that turned him into something greater in a moment of desperation.

The reason why the Exile can use Force powers is because as an absence in the Force, he is like a black hole to it. It's how he forms "Force" bonds with all he comes in contact with, and it's through THEM that he uses the Force. He isn't using any power of his own, he's simply absorbing and leeching the Force from those around him, whether by slaying his foes or through the bonds with his companions. This is how he first regains his powers, as Kreia is a force sensitive otherwise blocked off from the Force, but she acts as a conduit for the Exile, and in turn the bond strengthens her and allows her to use and feel the Force again through feedback from the Exile. Those bonds are also why the Exile could effortlessly train his companions to become Jedi, as the feedback effect he has on them amplifies their abilities as well. Kreia's plan was to make the Exile exert his will over the Force again, to force the Wound to expand and consume all Force from the Galaxy, even at the risk of killing most living beings. Just so there would be true free will and coincidence, and not just only The Force, for the knowledge that people won't suffer the way she did just because of some cosmic force dictating their fate.