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Decline Sword Coast Legends Pre-Release Thread

Dreaad

Arcane
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Apr 18, 2013
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Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
You'll understand when you're older. Or conversely when you've played over 100 games and are bored out of your mind if a game doesn't provide a challenge.

The other main reason is that overall atmosphere and story telling pale in video games compared to other forms of entertainment AKA reading. So all you're left with is gameplay, if the gameplay is mind numbing then why play a game when you can watch a superior television series on the same topic?
 

Kaivokz

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,509
You'll understand when you're older. Or conversely when you've played over 100 games and are bored out of your mind if a game doesn't provide a challenge.

The other main reason is that overall atmosphere and story telling pale in video games compared to other forms of entertainment AKA reading. So all you're left with is gameplay, if the gameplay is mind numbing then why play a game when you can watch a superior television series on the same topic?
Challenge does not lead to interesting gameplay ipso facto.
 

Copper

Savant
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
469
Didn't 4e introduce the concept of solo monsters? Looks like quite a few people like the idea of 4-6 players having to beat on a single boss for a while.

You realize 4th ed. tanked majorly, right?

I actually thought solos were pretty cool - especially since the ones I saw came out around the monster rebalance phase of 4th ed, whith a lot more emphasis on hard hitting, lower hp monsters. The point of a well designed solo is that it can engage multiple opponents at the same time/take multiple actions, so while it's shredding your paladin and rogue, it can also spit acid at your mage and smack the entire party with an AoE attack.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
10,005
Didn't 4e introduce the concept of solo monsters? Looks like quite a few people like the idea of 4-6 players having to beat on a single boss for a while.

You realize 4th ed. tanked majorly, right?

I actually thought solos were pretty cool - especially since the ones I saw came out around the monster rebalance phase of 4th ed, whith a lot more emphasis on hard hitting, lower hp monsters. The point of a well designed solo is that it can engage multiple opponents at the same time/take multiple actions, so while it's shredding your paladin and rogue, it can also spit acid at your mage and smack the entire party with an AoE attack.
that sounds like utter shit.
 

tuluse

Arcane
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Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
You don't need TPKs to be frequent to provide a challenge.

This game is still going to be awful though.
 

Dreaad

Arcane
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Apr 18, 2013
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Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
You'll understand when you're older. Or conversely when you've played over 100 games and are bored out of your mind if a game doesn't provide a challenge.

The other main reason is that overall atmosphere and story telling pale in video games compared to other forms of entertainment AKA reading. So all you're left with is gameplay, if the gameplay is mind numbing then why play a game when you can watch a superior television series on the same topic?
Challenge does not lead to interesting gameplay ipso facto.
You're right. But that's not what I said. My statement was non challenging gameplay always leads to a worse game. There is a difference.

A game can be really really hard and terrible. A game cannot be really really easy and great. Unless you're talking about arcade time sink games or something, but even then there is usually sufficient challenge to make you feel like you are achieving something worthwhile. Of course you can probably find examples to the contrary, i.e. Arcanum is a great game but it's ridiculously easy.... that won't really work though because it would have been even better if there was proper difficult encounters. Morrowind is insanely easy and unsurprisingly the best part of the game is when your character struggles to survive during his hikes between cities, not when when you can one shot everything. Deus Ex is better if you don't take the invisibility cloak mod because that makes large portions of the game meaningless.

A challenge gets you thinking, which may frustrate, anger or make you more determined. Once you finally beat the problem, your body releases dopamine, you feel better about everything. The entire process incorporates your emotions into what you are doing, thus making it more memorable in the future and more interesting in the moment. Part of the problem with a lot games today is that developers cater to people like you who may prefer less of challenge. Ok whatever. Problem is, after that all they do to make the game more challenging on higher difficulty settings is increase HP. That's artificial bullshit that leads to a situation you described a technically challenging but fundamentally bad game.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Messages
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You don't need TPKs to be frequent to provide a challenge.

This game is still going to be awful though.
My somewhat-grounded optimistic view is that it might at least be as enjoyable to play as DA:O, which is admittedly "not at all" to a lot of people here. I'm not expecting a NWN2-style disaster, though they may surprise me.
 
Joined
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
That's where I'm at. I doubt it will make my 2015 playlist (not unless Torment gets delayed), but 2016 for sure if we get DA:O levels of fun.
 

jimmy_pvish

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Sep 15, 2014
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Didn't 4e introduce the concept of solo monsters? Looks like quite a few people like the idea of 4-6 players having to beat on a single boss for a while.

You realize 4th ed. tanked majorly, right?

I actually thought solos were pretty cool - especially since the ones I saw came out around the monster rebalance phase of 4th ed, whith a lot more emphasis on hard hitting, lower hp monsters. The point of a well designed solo is that it can engage multiple opponents at the same time/take multiple actions, so while it's shredding your paladin and rogue, it can also spit acid at your mage and smack the entire party with an AoE attack.
Nope, Solo is lame.
Nobody like it, especially 4e community.
Solo is cool and feel epic.....until you use it and find out how weak it is.
It's just a huge bubble of hp, it's get gang rape to dead in 2-3 turn.
DMs of 4e brainstorm and find a conclusion, avoid it like plague or degrade it to just "elite" and add some standards + minions to fill the encounter.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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You don't need TPKs to be frequent to provide a challenge.

This game is still going to be awful though.
My somewhat-grounded optimistic view is that it might at least be as enjoyable to play as DA:O, which is admittedly "not at all" to a lot of people here. I'm not expecting a NWN2-style disaster, though they may surprise me.

I agree with these sentiments, roughly. I doubt it will actually be as fully fledged an enjoyable game as DA:O, but it might be a decent co-op romp.
 

Copper

Savant
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
469
Didn't 4e introduce the concept of solo monsters? Looks like quite a few people like the idea of 4-6 players having to beat on a single boss for a while.

You realize 4th ed. tanked majorly, right?

I actually thought solos were pretty cool - especially since the ones I saw came out around the monster rebalance phase of 4th ed, whith a lot more emphasis on hard hitting, lower hp monsters. The point of a well designed solo is that it can engage multiple opponents at the same time/take multiple actions, so while it's shredding your paladin and rogue, it can also spit acid at your mage and smack the entire party with an AoE attack.
Nope, Solo is lame.
Nobody like it, especially 4e community.
Solo is cool and feel epic.....until you use it and find out how weak it is.
It's just a huge bubble of hp, it's get gang rape to dead in 2-3 turn.
DMs of 4e brainstorm and find a conclusion, avoid it like plague or degrade it to just "elite" and add some standards + minions to fill the encounter.

Arguably that's Hasbro's fault for catering to the worst demographic in gaming - twinkers and power-gamers. Grogs are more or less harmless - they accept they've already lost, and just want to grumble into their Ren Fair mead steins. Power-gamers encourage designers to create tighter systems, but mostly, they encourage the flight of am.dram. types to system-less/rules-light play, until all they have left is Darwinian struggle, 3 bastards versus a psychotic GM.

And fuck GMs who can't run some basic numbers, and realise that solo is maybe not so solo. It took me three games of 4e to realise something sucked with monster numbers, start looking for a solution, and start creating better encounters than the published crawl. By the end, I had lower level solos as the pets of high level monsters in the showdown.
 

Kaivokz

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,509
You're right. But that's not what I said. My statement was non challenging gameplay always leads to a worse game. There is a difference.

A game can be really really hard and terrible. A game cannot be really really easy and great. Unless you're talking about arcade time sink games or something, but even then there is usually sufficient challenge to make you feel like you are achieving something worthwhile. Of course you can probably find examples to the contrary, i.e. Arcanum is a great game but it's ridiculously easy.... that won't really work though because it would have been even better if there was proper difficult encounters. Morrowind is insanely easy and unsurprisingly the best part of the game is when your character struggles to survive during his hikes between cities, not when when you can one shot everything. Deus Ex is better if you don't take the invisibility cloak mod because that makes large portions of the game meaningless.

A challenge gets you thinking, which may frustrate, anger or make you more determined. Once you finally beat the problem, your body releases dopamine, you feel better about everything. The entire process incorporates your emotions into what you are doing, thus making it more memorable in the future and more interesting in the moment. Part of the problem with a lot games today is that developers cater to people like you who may prefer less of challenge. Ok whatever. Problem is, after that all they do to make the game more challenging on higher difficulty settings is increase HP. That's artificial bullshit that leads to a situation you described a technically challenging but fundamentally bad game.
Non-challenging gameplay doesn't necessarily mean a boring/worse game, either. There are two relevant ways a game can be non-challenging: variably or statically. Good games with statically non-challenging gameplay are usually adventure games (Monkey Island, Deponia) or visual novels (Phoenix Wright, Danganronpa). They tend to be really easy. Making the puzzles/mechanics in these games really hard or challenging - even in a well-designed non-artificial way - wouldn't make the games better. There are some adventure games which have clever and challenging puzzles, but that doesn't mean every adventure game must in order to be engaging. That said, games like those exist in a somewhat different sphere than your average RPG.

Good cRPGs, and RPGs in general, can have variably non-challenging gameplay. (If they have the static kind they tend to be poorly crafted.) For example, BG2 definitely has a variable challenge level, with a notable decrease in challenge toward the end of the game. A sorcerer can easily wipe an entire screen with a stop time+improved alacrity combo, and then wish for all their spells back to do it again. I still enjoyed the end of the game. I would have also enjoyed the end of the game were I not what amounted to a god, but I don't think that would have made it "more fun" by rule simply because the challenge quota was met (and given the nature of the MC, being so powerful is fitting/satisfying). A second example: there's a segment in Dragonfall where you can completely avoid all of the combat in a dungeon and it's quite easy to do so (put on some guard uniforms, make some dialogue checks). It's not nearly as hard as busting through the front door and killing everyone, but there's a sense of urgency in the story and a sense of accomplishment in covertly infiltrating the compound. There are reasons beyond challenging gameplay to progress through games. I don't mind large sections of dialogue or story that possess little challenge, or non-challenging gameplay when there exist better motivators (or gameplay which allows you to design challenges for yourself). If you disagree, then we have dissimilar tastes.
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,940
Just saw a link to a new preview, Grunker will love this one :happytrollboy:


Tabletop is fluid. It's improv, and the key to proceedings is the dungeon master or DM. A good DM is constantly adjusting the rules on the fly, maybe faking dice rolls or inventing new rolls to accommodate first-and-foremost whatever will make the game most fun for players.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Just saw a link to a new preview, Grunker will love this one
Tabletop is fluid. It's improv, and the key to proceedings is the dungeon master or DM. A good DM is constantly adjusting the rules on the fly, maybe faking dice rolls or inventing new rolls to accommodate first-and-foremost whatever will make the game most fun for players.
Lovely. I know some guys in the gazebo who will love this news.
lol, did they read our thread? :lol:
 

Darth Roxor

Rattus Iratus
Staff Member
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Djibouti
This bears repeating

4e8hgr.png
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Messages
36,925
Well, you say a bunch. We don't know how much side content there will be.
They also said it was lengthy.

And of course some (a lot?) of that optional content will include "collect 10 ooze samples." ;)
 

Trodat

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Finland
Another interview, nothing new same shit recycled: http://maximumpixelation.com/2015/03/12/rpg-week-sword-coast-legends-interview/

One question for the Codex tho

MaxPix: You’ve mentioned the game will use a pause time tactical combat, I assume similar to Baldur’s Gate or DAO. We haven’t seen many turn based D&D computer games since the SSI Gold box series and the Temple or Elemental Evil. Recently acclaimed Divinity Original Sin uses a turn based system. What was the design decision to go with a real-time / pause type system?

Dan Tudge: Great question. We wanted to make the game accessible to players of all sorts. The pause and play feature is great for players like me that like to get very tactical, pausing every round and controlling every party member, effectively playing turn-based like I did in DAO, NWN and BG. Other players, like our design director Tim Schwalk enjoy faster paced real-time isometric combat, which they get as well.
 

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