Fallout Tale of Two Wastelands, a proper look at Fallout 3 writings and designs

[laclongquan]

In actual fact, judging Fallout 3 best done on gameplay aspect, not writings.

And by gameplay aspect, leaving aside some coding shortcomings that can only be improved by FNV (search function in console command, additem with editor id instead of base id etc..., repair can be done to 100% item just by burning spare parts like crazy, Living Anatomy= Awareness in F1/2), Fallout 3 is a pretty tight game. A very good tactical combat and economy management game.

Barter in F3 is pretty tight. FNV reduce barter variant so the economy feel pretty bloated. To compare the difference, you can get a tougher barter mod which about double FNV's variable.(of course you can argue that's a story reason, Mojave is not a hard land like Capital Wasteland)

Fallout New Vegas introduce some features, that while pretty good interm of story-wise and narrative, completely break game's economy. I am speaking of course of Jury Rigging. FNV before level 16 (JR perk there) play pretty much (leaving barter variant aside) like Fallout 3 in term of economy, but bloat up completely after that. it's too good a perk to ignore, but just break the game.

Ammo variant is also a devil's bargain. On one hand I love the options I can have in choosing ammo variants. On another hand it reduce difficulty by 20% at least. So it's a wash.

Various magazines, drugs and foods introduced in aid section also reduce difficulty to another 20%, at least. When you are used to FNV's boatload of buffs, getting back to F3's bare necessity is a big deal. precisely that lack that lead us to popping stimpack like candy.

EDIT: this post is made on the basis of pure F3, not TTW on FNV. I suddenly find the urge to play F3 after some very long runtime on FNV/TTW.

 

[Sykar]

That is not gameplay but systems or in this case system balance. Failderp 3s gameplay is complete garbage from the shitty gunplay with barely zoom and no iron sights to cheating VATS with no drawbacks to crappy skill checks that can easily be passed by save scumming.

 

[Butter]

You can trivially skip Jury Rigging with its 90 Repair requirement and just craft weapon repair kits at 50 Repair.

 

[Ol' Willy]

A very good tactical combat

Are you serious?

As I said somewhere before, Fagout 3 has two main types of AI.
One is simple "bumrush towards the player", second is more cautious one, using cover and fucking around (not very smart but already something).
The problem is that 90% of enemies in the game have bumrush AI. The cautious one is used mostly by Enclave, BoS (whom you won't be fighting) and mercs.

All the hordes of mutants and raiders will just bumrush you so no need for any thought and only need for more firepower

 

[laclongquan]

You can trivially skip Jury Rigging with its 90 Repair requirement and just craft weapon repair kits at 50 Repair.

I play FNV almost always as a jack of all trades storyfag, and invest noncombat skills straight away, Jury Rigging is irresistable to me.
pack rat too. I loot all of them and carry away.
Who can say NO to hoarding, I ask?
So Jury Rigging is a very obvious route for me. I just can NOT unpick JR. IMPOSSIBLE!
JR strike straight at the heart of player such as me, I am afraid.
----
Weapon Repair Kits are limited by number of ingredients. If you play like me and rely too much on WRK, you will find that situation staring at you right in the noggin.

A very good tactical combat

Are you serious?

As I said somewhere before, Fagout 3 has two main types of AI.
One is simple "bumrush towards the player", second is more cautious one, using cover and fucking around (not very smart but already something).
The problem is that 90% of enemies in the game have bumrush AI. The cautious one is used mostly by Enclave, BoS (whom you won't be fighting) and mercs.

All the hordes of mutants and raiders will just bumrush you so no need for any thought and only need for more firepower

I am sure that FPS players like to play F3/FNV that way, and they find the games VERY easy. Obviously, since the games are not FPS Shooting action game in the first place~

Since I play the game as a tactical RPG, I dont do twitch shooting. Did you know VATS make a very acceptable method of stopping and look over the battlefield? I am sure you dont.

And of course, when you treat the game as a tactical RPG, you are going to have to set difficulty at Very hard or it's no talkee around here.

And VH only work until you get familiar with mechanic. After that, you are going to install mod to beef up difficulty. More hostiles, better HP and tougher armors for THEM, etc...

Did you know, explosives and missiles make acceptable combat tool if you play at low level (thus low skill and low HP, less equipment) against a bunchaton of enemies? That show how easy vanilla fallout new vegas is. Fallout 3 is actually much harder but that's not saying much.

If you dont break out a bunch of frags and throwing around like free money in an encounter, you aint playing hard enough.

And if you dont eat frag thrown at yourself at least TWICE per enc, you aint playing hard enough.

F3 hostile AI can throw grenades and use missiles which are simply damaging you just by missing. You dont get that in vanilla because their vanilla inventory is limited as fuck to prevent FPS shooters get frags right and left. Any melee type with throw grenades before they rush at you.

 

[SharkClub]

Fallout 3 does not have good tactical combat. What new kind of cope is this?

 

[Ol' Willy]

Did you know VATS make a very acceptable method of stopping and look over the battlefield? I am sure you dont.

I see red stripes on my compass. Enemies ahead.
But I see no one.
I press VATS. VATS, a magickal tool it is, zooms on every enemy in front of me.

This is a joke for 3D game. May as well just put huge red or green arrow on top of every critter or NPC

 

[laclongquan]

Aaaaah, immershun, I see~

A curious reason for players who play a video game about a future imagined by people in the 50s (retrofuturism), as designed by 90s people thinking how they should imagine.

A very curious reason for players who play with limited hardware of console which show blocky visual. And even now with 20 years of upgrades, F3/FNV is still no movie, and no right minded person should think they are watching one, let alone living one.

You are playing a video GAME. G.A.M.E. not watching a movie or reading a novel.

Of fucking course there should be red or green arrows, or quest compass. It's game features. The only reason games dont have it is because that wont/wouldnt fit that game's aesthetic design.

Admit it: you are FPS gamer and you play F3/FNV combat like one. Aint no street cred from me.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Admit it, you are FPS gamer and you play F3/FNV combat like one.

I played these games like FPS because they are indeed FPS with RPG elements tackled on top.

 

[karoliner]

This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

 

[laclongquan]

Admit it, you are FPS gamer and you play F3/FNV combat like one.

I played these games like FPS because they are indeed FPS with RPG elements tackled on top.

You are lucky I am not in the habit of quoting players in my signature to nail them on the pillar of shame around here.

Anyway, you admit the problem and that's a good 1st step.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Anyway, you admit the problem and that's a good 1st step.

Fagout 3 is not RPG, man. It's an action game.

New Vegas is action-RPG at best

 

[Alphons]

Fallout 3 has 2 types of enemies:
Vanilla wimps and DLC mortal gods.

In vanilla you can easily kill a bunch of Enclave troopers with a 10mm pistol. Even a deathclaw isn't a challenge.

So they fixed this with DLCs introducing super radscorpion, super ghoul and super Supermutant that have over 10x the health of vanilla wimps and deal 3-5x damage more.
Not to mention aliens with shields and tribals with shotguns that deal 35 extra unstoppable damage per pellet!


What economy is there?
Every shop's inventory is level-scaled, so before you'll unlock something cool you'll already be decked out with gear you found.

 

[laclongquan]

This day and age we dont play with vanilla, man~ Fallout New Vegas, let alone Fallout 3. Vanilla is shit easy for players with decades of gaming.

This day and age we play with double number of hostiles compared to vanilla, custom armors and weapons including new ones introduced in DLCs, and role play the fuck out of game not just because we like roleplay but because we know mechanims inside out and there's shits to help us RP.

It's when you start messing with AI's inventory, you find out that if they has enough tools in their inventory, players can get a hard fight.

Melee rush? That's because they dont have grenades in their vanilla set up. Or they would rain us with fragments before they deign to bum rush us.

And when you increase the number of hostiles per encounter, you suddenly find out that quantity has quality of its own. 1 melee fighter may not be anything but 3 guys throw grenades on your head and rush you is nothing to sneer at. Not when they has one or two more shooting as cover fire. ESPECIALLY if one more is a heavy-class of shooter with missiles.

Two decades ago a console game was not much different from a PC game. Nowaday? Console peasants can just eat shit and bow before PC master race. And with good reasons too.

 

[Daemongar]

Went and installed TTW - which effectively requires uninstalling FO:NV and doing a fresh install of FO3 & FO:NV, removing all mods and such.

Some nice things about the setup: they really do a fantastic job of optimizing the install. Very smooth result. Should be required for any FONV play. On the other hand, this took a long time to set up once the main application install begins.

The good

• In the end you discover you are playing a much better looking FO3. Doesn't have that horrible FO3 green everything, so it helps with those whose eyes bleed easily.
• The perks seem to be FONV. A little more polished than the original FO3 perks.
• There are some quality of life improvements, and it's pleasant to add FONV mods to FO3. If you are going to play FO3, hey, this is the way to do it.
• When you start a new game, you can start FO3 or FONV - eh, makes it easier to mod and such

The bad

• Well, you are still playing FO3. You can make it look as good as you want, but you still start with being born, have to have a birthday party, have to fight the tunnel snakes, you still have to blow up Megaton... Its all there. If you want to play FO3, well, go crazy. I don't know what I was expecting, but it's a nicer looking FO3 but it's still the same game.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

, you still have to blow up Megaton

 

[LarryTyphoid]

I haven't played FO3 since I was a little baby on the Xbox 360; however, I think New Vegas's combat is pretty alright on Very Hard difficulty. Being able to beat cazadors at level 1 with careful use of VATS and dynamite is pretty satisfying, as is shooting guns out of enemies' hands like a real cowboy - I only wish you could blow enemies' limbs off while they were still alive. That being said, NV would be way better if it were only turn-based, because the real-time shooting is absolutely god-awful.

 

[Ryzer]

Fagout 3 is not RPG, man. It's an action game.

New Vegas is action-RPG at best

Both are shit, doesn't matter whether they are RPGs or not.

 

[laclongquan]

, you still have to blow up Megaton

What do you mean "have to blow up Megaton"?

In all three games running back to back, I never blow it up even once. It's a central town full of amenities, Who would be stupid enough to destroy a central town?

Aaaaah, i forgot, dumb original Fallout 3 players, is whom.

From perspective of metagaming, and powergaming, the utility of Megaton prevent its destruction.

From perspective of roleplaying, there's absolutely no reason to destroy it unless you are going to side with ghouls and massacre Tenpenny Tower too (roleplaying a ghoul suppremacist). And for what purpose? To get a casino in TPT, is what.

It's nobrainer question that lead to brainless answer is what define F3 players.

Another nobrainer question is which to stand with: slavers or slaves in the Pitt. You guess it: they stand with slavers too.

 

[laclongquan]

In fact, Megaton destruction also illustrate of bad writing in a way.

Destroy or not destroy a central town with full amenity is not a hard question. Not. At. All. For the curious: the answer of course is NOT DESTROY. Only dumbos and attentionseeker would destroy it in a display of attentionwhore.

Now, if that town is other more gray, more un-obvious, the question would be sharper.

How about Tenpenny Tower in a far off corner, a community of bigots and racists? Do you bomb racists and bigots to atomic cloud? When you destroy it and not get inconvenient too much due to its in a corner of the world? Would you unleash your destructive urge on a target like that?

It would have been a very troll-like quest where it display specific group of players' thought process to the world to see.

Megaton is meh~ Too easy.

 

[Ol' Willy]

What do you mean "have to blow up Megaton"?

That place is disgusting, blowing it up is fun

Also, shops in Megaton are trash-tier. Can do without

 

[Ol' Willy]

Tenpenny Tower in a far off corner, a community of bigots and racists

They don't want ghouls inside because ghouls will kill them all. Seems reasonable to me

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's not very often in an RPG where you take the obviously "good" path in a quest and it ends up going horribly wrong because you didn't actually think it through. Tenpenny tower is therefore one of the better quests in any RPG.

 

[Butter]

Yeah, I see people complain about Tenpenny Tower a lot because "it tricked me!". They thought they were being clever and finding the third solution that helps everybody, when in reality the evil bigots were right all along; letting anyone and everyone into your walled paradise might not be terribly wise. The player isn't owed a good outcome for the quest, and there should be consequences for being stupid.

 

[laclongquan]

Tenpenny Tower in a far off corner, a community of bigots and racists

They don't want ghouls inside because ghouls will kill them all. Seems reasonable to me

Yeah, especially consider they massacre them all after getting them in. The irony. We can draw endless allegory to that.

Yep, all three runs I kill all the ghouls. If those zombies dont do the massacre, possibly I can be persuaded to help them in just to give a middle finger to all those fretful talks.
+++ Mind you, Roy Philips' dialog in the warrington station is pretty scary talks. Not good vibes at all. You dont actually have any good reason to think that get them in peacefully would be good outside of your imagination.

Alas, those fretful talks are true oracles.

Mind you, if we can help the ghouls in, then the ghouls massacre them all.... THEN we detonate an Abomb in the basement of TPT. That and the nuke in Megaton would get us two towns obliterated in the bag~ What an achievement! An awesome way to play destroyer character. And awesome way to make James speechless when talking about it. :wishful: