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Community The Age of Incline: RPG Codex's 2012-2016 GOTY Results

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Lurker King

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Arcanum, Ultima 7, Morrowind, PST - all have shitty combat, and even Fallout's isn't that great either - yet those are the Codex's top RPGs.

It’s curious that you mention this because you can track some of the decline elements that afflicts the game industry in the classics. All these games you mentioned were the first “sandbox” games. So in a sense Skyrim, FO4 and TW3 are the great-great-grandson of these games. “Darklands” that is celebrated as a classic, was the first to implement the disgrace that is RTwP. So BGs and PoE are their descendants. PS:T was the first cRPG with verbose-diarrhea writing. Which means that PoE is its descendent.
 
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Drax

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DeepOcean

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honest question; if the witcher 3 had either turn based combat (somehow) or had action based combat on the (mechanical) level of Dark Souls, would you regard it to be a 'proper' RPG? Is it's shitty combat alone enough to disqualify it as one?
You are going on a forced dichotomy there, Witcher 3 didn't need to be turn based and didn't need to be Dark Souls as an strategy game can be turn based and not be an RPG and a game may have strong combat and not be an RPG. Witcher 3 has alot of problems, the combat is pretty crappy and wouldn't hurt the game for it to be more interesting but this isn't even my biggest issue with the game.

Witcher 3 needed stronger support for mechanical storytelling and not just cinematic storytelling to be an interesting game from an RPG point of view. There is a complete split on the game of parts that don't interact well, the open world, the story and your actions on this story.

The open world is there but honestly I wouldn't feel cheated if they cut 75% of it. It is mostly static background, pretty static background but still static background and after Velen there is no effort into including this background on the story that is another completely isolated beast. On a PnP system, you arrive at a city and the gamemaster tries to force you on the laws and customs of this city, Novigrad is a city where non humans and especially mages are in danger of life, anyone seen as strange or friend of strange people would have a series of problems, if Witcher 3 had mechanical storytelling mechanics your character should be targeted for investigation of the witch hunters from day one.

You would have to hide you are a witcher and any actions you did that hinted you being a magic user or a strange person would lead the witch hunters closer and closer to you and closer and closer to Triss and the other mages you are helping out. To investigate the underworld to find Ciri would mean you getting to do favors for people that could denounce you to the witch hunters anytime they want and exposing yourself with alot of possible choices and consequences involved.

Instead:
Because it was too much work to do this and at same time fill the square miles quota filler, you enter a city on the middle of a pogrom and the very head of the witcher hunters come to you implying you are being watched but you can go anywhere, do whatever and pretty much walk on where Triss Merigold is hidden with zero repercussions. The game should punish you for trying to meet Triss and attracting the witch hunters towards her, the game should punish you for doing stupid obvious things and ignore the rules where he is.

To make matters worse, this open world and story disconnect comes to a point where you enter the witcher hunter HQ and right afterwards a fire break out, at this point you should be the most wanted man of the whole Novigrad but nothing happens. The open world and the story never really affect each other, they are static and you are just an actor following the script.

Another case: On the first DLC you have to invade a house on a heist but this is the most mindless heist I ever seen where all choices lead to success, every single pass is signed posted with glowing yellow circles on the map, the handholding and railroading reach such extremes to the point where I'm more watching an episode on a series about a heist that sometimes remembers I'm supposedly to be doing something. This isn't the only quest with an interesting premise ruined by extensive handholding and railroading.

It is unfair to say Witcher 3 is the only popamole RPG that does popamole mechanics and really awful boring AAA game design choices, but I would be far more forgiving if the character system didn't suck so much and you had attributes, skills, traditional dialog checks, you could disable all the popamole quest markers and map circles and eagle vision crap without going blind, at least the basics but that is too alienating for the AAA masses these days. For a game heralded as the new standard for RPGs and other crap I heard people saying on the internet this is really underwhelming and show how easy people are mislead by production values.
 

Ismaul

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honest question; if the witcher 3 had either turn based combat (somehow) or had action based combat on the (mechanical) level of Dark Souls, would you regard it to be a 'proper' RPG? Is it's shitty combat alone enough to disqualify it as one?
You are going on a forced dichotomy there, Witcher 3 didn't need to be turn based and didn't need to be Dark Souls as an strategy game can be turn based and not be an RPG and a game may have strong combat and not be an RPG. Witcher 3 has alot of problems, the combat is pretty crappy and wouldn't hurt the game for it to be more interesting but this isn't even my biggest issue with the game.

Witcher 3 needed stronger support for mechanical storytelling and not just cinematic storytelling to be an interesting game from an RPG point of view. There is a complete split on the game of parts that don't interact well, the open world, the story and your actions on this story.
You're right. The Witcher 3 devs fucked up by going for a sandbox. It destroyed the gameplay, forced the decision to make the world static, to let you explore freely without consequence, the bland / repetitive flora and wildlife, the atrocious handholding, the terrible level scaling. That is, not counting the other faults that came with going for a larger audience, such as the shitty and easy combat, the gimped alchemy with potion usage in combat, the absence of need for preparation before most fights, no consequence for stealing... basically everything to prevent a new player from ragequitting. It is basically a really shitty Gothic clone in the gameplay department.

But, despite all that, it is still the best C&C AAA action-rpg since Bloodlines, with the best writing. (Fuck NV it didn't want to run for me.) It's also the best sandbox, because all quests have a minimum of interest to them, they're not fed-ex, but actually flesh out the world a bit. What you do in the world is also believable, taking contracts as a Witcher, while other games just put you in the position of the chosen farmer who will go from zero to god in a week, all while doing all the little menial tasks of random NPCs that ask for your help because they can feel your chosenness.

Most important of all, The Witcher 3 has characters that are realized in a way we haven't seen before in a AAA. Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol, KotOR, ... they have nice writing and shit, but the characters are brodudes and brodettes, they're funny and quirky and whatnot, but none of them show their humanity, their flaws, their doubts, their sorrows, in a believable way. The Witcher 3 did this, in a non-lore-dump way. Despite all its flaws, this has to be recognized.

And aren't the Codex's top games ones that are deeply flawed? PS:T, MotB had atrocious RTwP gameplay (and that fucking PST multiclassing, fucking hell). Obsidian games don't need a quest compass, there is usually one place to go, follow where the story takes you. KotOR is basically a fucking corridor. Bloodlines has 2 street cities. Fallout combat sounds cool on paper until you just aim for the eyes (it is satisfying though). Arcanum, heh, better not start (and I have one of its avatars, not for no reason). Divinity OS? Awesome combat, cringe worthy story and atrocious everything else.

Why are they liked so much? Because, despite their numerous flaws, they did something very well. You might not like that aspect of RPGs that they did well, and therefore hate the game, but that doesn't change the facts. We are some motherfuckers that will tough through some shit gameplay or story if there is some good experiences to be had.
 

KILLER BEAR

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^I actually prefer the "2 street cities" approach in plot-heavy games than full open world. Allows for more focused content. Imagine Bloodlines with gothic style sandbox world, all that walking back and forth to advance a mostly linear storyline.
 

Ismaul

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^Totally agree. Fucking Bethesda's influence declining everything. The Witcher 3 was way too big for its own good.

I fear that Cyberpunk 2077 will suffer from the same issues.
 

Sentinel

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honest question; if the witcher 3 had either turn based combat (somehow) or had action based combat on the (mechanical) level of Dark Souls, would you regard it to be a 'proper' RPG? Is it's shitty combat alone enough to disqualify it as one?
You are going on a forced dichotomy there, Witcher 3 didn't need to be turn based and didn't need to be Dark Souls as an strategy game can be turn based and not be an RPG and a game may have strong combat and not be an RPG. Witcher 3 has alot of problems, the combat is pretty crappy and wouldn't hurt the game for it to be more interesting but this isn't even my biggest issue with the game.

Witcher 3 needed stronger support for mechanical storytelling and not just cinematic storytelling to be an interesting game from an RPG point of view. There is a complete split on the game of parts that don't interact well, the open world, the story and your actions on this story.
You're right. The Witcher 3 devs fucked up by going for a sandbox. It destroyed the gameplay, forced the decision to make the world static, to let you explore freely without consequence, the bland / repetitive flora and wildlife, the atrocious handholding, the terrible level scaling. That is, not counting the other faults that came with going for a larger audience, such as the shitty and easy combat, the gimped alchemy with potion usage in combat, the absence of need for preparation before most fights, no consequence for stealing... basically everything to prevent a new player from ragequitting. It is basically a really shitty Gothic clone in the gameplay department.
Let you explore without consequence
False. If you actually explore around in Velen, you'll come across some high level monsters, as well as very high level quests (33 IIRC) that aren't expansion content. I remember coming across a level 35 wyvern that one shot me while wandering around in the fields.

Shitty and easy combat

This is a fault of all the Witcher games, not exclusive to 3.

Gimped alchemy with potion usage in combat

This is perfectly fine and was in Witcher 1 as well.

Absence of need for preparation before most fights

False. Play on a difficulty higher than "Story and Sword". Drinking up a potion and applying oils is strongly incentivized. Granted the combat gets easy the higher level you are (particularly 3/4ths into the game), but this isn't the fault of the alchemy/oil system, it's the fault of the ridiculous talents that make you immortal unless you take your hands off the keyboard and go take a piss in the middle of a fight, coupled with the shit boss fights that spam the same 3-hit combo for 10 minutes straight.

The terrible level-scaling

Witcher 3 doesn't have enemy level scaling. It introduced an upscaling OPTION in patch 1.2 but you can turn that off.

You're correct on everything else though. Open World was a mistake in Witcher 3, and it was another mistake in MGS5. It will be yet another mistake in Cyberpunk 2077. Can't wait until this shit fad dies off.
 
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Ismaul

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Let you explore without consequence
False. If you actually explore around in Velen, you'll come across some high level monsters
Is that what we are calling "consequence" now? I was replying to DeepOcean, that talked about the absence of story consequences to for example wasting your time exploring while Ciri is hunted, wandering freely in town while supposedly being watched but having no consequence for doing reprehensible stuff in the eyes of the witch hunters, stealing without peasants doing a thing / changing disposition and looking down on you...

Shitty and easy combat
This is a fault of all the Witcher games, not exclusive to 3.
Doesn't make it good.

Gimped alchemy with potion usage in combat
This is perfectly fine and was in Witcher 1 as well.
Perfectly fine lol. It would be much better if you could only use potions out of combat and they lasted a while, like in the first game. Driking a potion in The Witcher 1 usually got you killed, since there's a long animation. And if it didn't get you killed, you didn't need the potion in the first place.

Absence of need for preparation before most fights
False. Play on a difficulty higher than "Story and Sword". Drinking up a potion and applying oils is strongly incentivized. Granted the combat gets easy the higher level you are (particularly 3/4ths into the game), but this isn't the fault of the alchemy/oil system, it's the fault of the ridiculous talents that make you immortal unless you take your hands off the keyboard and go take a piss in the middle of a fight, coupled with the shit boss fights that spam the same 3-hit combo for 10 minutes straight.
I only play on the hardest difficulty. So what you're saying is that fights are easy, but you are incentivized to prepare? How does that make sense?

TW1 was better for this, you had to identify the enemy you'd face, research it, learn its weaknesses, choose weapon, type of attack, and apply potions and oils beforehand. This is preparation. In line with a Witcher's work. Not the bullshit we got in TW3.

Witcher 3 doesn't have enemy level scaling.
So level scaling isn't the right term, my bad. But monsters are level-gated. Try to kill one with a red skull icon, they have additional damage reduction up the wazoo just because you are of a lower level. That is some bullshit. If you can take them, you should be able to make the attempt even if it's hard. Gothic did it right.
 
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makiavelli747

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Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol, KotOR, ... they have nice writing and shit, but the characters are brodudes and brodettes, they're funny and quirky and whatnot, but none of them show their humanity, their flaws, their doubts, their sorrows, in a believable way. The Witcher 3 did this, in a non-lore-dump way. Despite all its flaws, this has to be recognized.
Cool Sarcastic Guy Simulator 2015 has better characters than Bloodlines?
 

Ismaul

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Cool Sarcastic Guy Simulator 2015 has better characters than Bloodlines?
I love Bloodlines' characters, but yes. They're all walking stereotypes, never straying far from expectations. Very well executed though.

Smiling Jack is just cool metal headbanger guy.
LaCroix is just mr young business man.
Nines is just I'm so moral guy.
Beckett is just mysterious lore-dump guy.
Strauss is just let-me-clean-my-glasses guy.
Fat Larry is just the coolest ghetto guy.
Damsel is just anarchy! girl.
Jeanette/Therese is just crazy hot tits girl.


What Bloodlines has on The Witcher 3 is a higher denstiy of great characters, but that is accounted by the different scale of the games. Also they ooze sex appeal. On the other hand, TW3 has a lot of small parts, but the big ones have quite some depth to them.
 

Lhynn

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On the contrary. AoD is a new classic that doesn’t get half of the attention it deserves because it is an indie game made by a codexer.
It gets the attention it deserves.

If he were a nobody without a past inside this forum, with all the bickering and butthurt associated with it, or if he were an intern of Obsidian, the reception would be more positive.
Nope. People complain that the game forces you into choices because it doesnt allow much flexibility into your build (or any flexibility at all). Its an easy game with a focus on character creation and building to the detriment of everything else. The reception would have been about the same. Everyone here knows just how impressive AoD is, the moment to moment gameplay however, is frustrating and never rewarding.

I found out about the game before joining the Codex.
We fucking know

Troika games are classics because they implement some things right
:lol:

AoD has great combat system
No it doesnt, its pretty simple and fairly boring. Its not the worst, but even fallout was more enjoyable.

excellent writing
Its serviceable, functional, you dont really care for the characters, not even yours. So while its well written it never engages the player on any level.

amazing reactivity
Its decent. The main problem being that you never get to interact with what your big choices provoked, just an ending slide.

abundant stat/skill checks
VD turned this into the game greatest weakness, while in most games you can always do everything (which is admittedly shit), in AoD you can usually only do 1 thing that was determined when you created your character (which is just as shit). This kills the game, it kills the amazing reactivity.

great itemization
Not really, no. Itemization is serviceable, functional.

But hey, let’s ignore the facts
Only one ignoring the facts here is you.

because CYOA
It is functionally a CYOA, not an RPG. and its not even a good CYOA because it never gives you a reason to give a shit. No friends or likable characters you can interact with, everyone is an asshole, the world is a shithole. Never instills a sense of adventure or wonder.

and Troika games are better because grafixs!
:lol:

If Tim Cain or Avellone had made the same game you would say that AoD is an awesome classic
:lol:

but since it’s VD, is just a nice indie game.
:lol:

Who care about facts, when you only care about developer’s pedigree, am I right?
:lol:

Theres something really wrong with you.
 

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