Community The Age of Incline: RPG Codex's 2012-2016 GOTY Results

[Excidium II]

Parsers are good.

> I'm sorry Excidium, I don't understand "parsers"

I'd agree with you IF the parser was as intelligent as a human dungeon master. Never gonna happen, though.

Never had a problem with games that use parser

 

[l3loodAngel]

Yeah probably that's why W3 is the TOP rpg. Lots of parsers!

 

[felipepepe]

I don't mean a new voting, I mean making reviews for the games we just elected.

Where? On which thread? What is the procedure for submitting a review?

Let's try this again: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ty-review-thread-get-in-here-and-help.113633/

^GO THERE the help us writing about the games that won the poll.

 

[Lurker King]

Even if it's not completely binary it's still much more limited than combat scenarios, which I hope makes you see while re-loading combat bothers people much less.

I agree, but that is a problem of non-combat related gameplay in every cRPG. The systems are not complex enough because is too difficult to implement. To be perfectly honest, I think that if the dialogue system were deeper, it would cause even more resentment because “cRPGs is about killing things” superficial mentality.

In most RPGs stats determine what your character can do or not, but most of them just don't rely only on skill checks since there's combat involved. If you fuck up negotiations in Fallout, Bloodlines or Arcanum you can always rely on combat which makes hoarding-points less of an issue.

Yes, but that is because these games are so easier and don’t take character building so seriously. Sure, you have a bunch of skills, but the games are designed around combat, the skill checks are less in number, they are fluffy for the most part, etc. Maybe the only way to “fix” AoD is making it less coherent and easy, and maybe this is good gameplay, I don’t know. I think this is an easy way out, and maybe we are just being prejudiced

I wasn't criticizing the options, I was criticizing the notion that "predicting skill checks" is somehow a core gameplay of most RPGs. Also most quests in AoD as a diplomat are "go there and pass on of a few skill-check", which is also not that interesting. I've enjoyed Legionnaire's and Assassin's gameplay much more enjoyable because it's not as simple.

But nobody denies that skill checks is not a core gameplay of most cRPGs, even though they should. The question is how to make this type of gameplay more active, interactive and less passive. I think that pacific playtroughs are doomed in that regard, unless you implement a very complicated puzzle real life conversation system, but most players would hate this system, because they like action, not puzzles. Or they can enjoy some puzzles, but not as a core feature of gameplay.

It is because the environment doesn't make all you options immediately apparent. You still need some lateral thinking to figure out what they are and what skill/item you need to activate them.

You know, I just realized that AoD's non-combat gameplay could be easily saved without radically changing the structure of the game: just make it parser-based. Have the player type the options himself instead of choosing them from a list. They'd have killed two birds with one stone this way: the non-combat gameplay would become much more involved and cerebral, and the players would be far more likely to roll with non-ideal outcomes (because they wouldn't have been shown that there were other options). At least I know I would love a game like that.

I think this is a red herring. You didn’t like the harsh skill checks and want to blame something else, “this is not gameplay”, “ok this is gameplay, but is bad gameplay because the use of stat/skill checks is not transparent enough”, etc. I think gameplay is an activity that allow you to surpass the obstacles the game presents to you. You said that the use of skill/stat checks is not transparent, but it is to a certain point. You press “tab” and you can see the icons of any thing you can interact with. The same type of activity you do in other cRPGs such as opening locks or stealing stuff, is not good enough in AoD.

Let’s cut to the chase: what you don’t like is the scarcity of skill points and the harsh skill checks. This is the result of taking character building seriously, in which your stats and skills really represent your limitations and abilities, instead of the usual make-believe of most cRPGs. This leads to “hoard skill-reload” mentality. The only way to solve this “issue” without making the game too easy is allowing for more fail-and-go scenarios. I think this wouldn’t still be enough since players are naturally arrogant and can’t stand any form of second option, because they were spoiled by games with fluffy skill checks.

 

[toro]

Even if it's not completely binary it's still much more limited than combat scenarios, which I hope makes you see while re-loading combat bothers people much less.

Play AoD! It's so simple and I do this shit for free.

In most RPGs stats determine what your character can do or not, but most of them just don't rely only on skill checks since there's combat involved. If you fuck up negotiations in Fallout, Bloodlines or Arcanum you can always rely on combat which makes hoarding-points less of an issue.

Jesus Christ ... how dense are you !? Play AoD! Do you need a guide?

I wasn't criticizing the options, I was criticizing the notion that "predicting skill checks" is somehow a core gameplay of most RPGs. Also most quests in AoD as a diplomat are "go there and pass on of a few skill-check", which is also not that interesting. I've enjoyed Legionnaire's and Assassin's gameplay much more enjoyable because it's not as simple.

How about this? Play AoD! With my special friend Goral. Don't worry ... unless you are an Underrail fan.

It is because the environment doesn't make all you options immediately apparent. You still need some lateral thinking to figure out what they are and what skill/item you need to activate them.

You know, I just realized that AoD's non-combat gameplay could be easily saved without radically changing the structure of the game: just make it parser-based. Have the player type the options himself instead of choosing them from a list. They'd have killed two birds with one stone this way: the non-combat gameplay would become much more involved and cerebral, and the players would be far more likely to roll with non-ideal outcomes (because they wouldn't have been shown that there were other options). At least I know I would love a game like that.

Do you see my tag? It says "Fanboy!" which means that you should definitely play more AoD! At least until you lose your mind and you are ready to replace me in this disco inferno.

Shill translation. You are welcome.

 

[toro]

I don't mean a new voting, I mean making reviews for the games we just elected.

Where? On which thread? What is the procedure for submitting a review?

Let's try this again: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ty-review-thread-get-in-here-and-help.113633/

^GO THERE the help us writing about the games that won the poll.

Honest question: Why should we help you considering that AoD is not #1 ??

 

[felipepepe]

Then don't.

 

[V_K]

I don't mean a new voting, I mean making reviews for the games we just elected.

Where? On which thread? What is the procedure for submitting a review?

Let's try this again: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ty-review-thread-get-in-here-and-help.113633/

^GO THERE the help us writing about the games that won the poll.

What about negative reviews? Would you accept one detailing why Twitcher is shit and people who voted for it are retards?

 

[Geckabor]

What about negative reviews? Would you accept one detailing why Twitcher is shit and people who voted for it are retards?

I believe that writing negative reviews about the most highly rated games isn't really the point.

 

[Lhynn]

What about negative reviews? Would you accept one detailing why Twitcher is shit and people who voted for it are retards?

If you want? Who gives a flying fuck. Just give it a fair review, no one here cares if you liked it or not.

 

[gaussgunner]

CLUSTER ANALYSIS

Age of Decadence fans favor these games more than other voters:
1. Child of Light
2. Invisible, Inc.
3. Salt and Sanctuary
4. Thea: The Awakening
Popular favorites: Underrail, Dungeon Rats

Underrail fans favor...
1. Hand of Fate
2. Invisible, Inc.
3. Child of Light
Popular favorites: Dark Souls, AoD, Dragon's Dogma

Pillars of Eternity fans favor...
1. Tyranny
2. Expedition: Conquistador
3. Serpent in the Staglands
Popular favorites: TW3, Shadowrun DF, Expeditions: Conquistador

Divinity: Original Sin fans favor...
1. Thea: The Awakening
2. Invisible, Inc.
3. Salt and Sanctuary
4. Consortium
5. NEO Scavenger
Popular favorites: Underrail, AoD, Shadowrun DF & HK

Fans of the Big 4 (AoD, Underrail, PoE, D:OS) favor...
1. Blackguards
2. Valkyria Chronicles
3. Deus Ex: MD
>> surprise: fanboys have poor taste?

RTwP cluster: fans of these 4 games favor nothing else:
1. Pillars of Eternity
2. Serpent in the Staglands
3. Tyranny
4. Expedition: Conquistador
>> WL2 was also popular among this crowd, but they only rated it 3.

Shadowrun fans like Shadowrun Returns, HK, DF (in that order)
...and Stardew Valley

Stardew Valley fans like SitS, Shadowrun, Underrail, and Valkyria Chronicles
>> Matt Barton kept asking about this one on the radio show. Looks kinda casual but maybe interesting. Do we have a review of it?

Valkyria Chronicles fans like Dragon's Dogma, Shadowrun HK, Child of Light, Transistor, Dark Souls II, The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
:anime: :fabulous:

Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen fans like Stardew Valley, Avernum II: Crystal Souls, NEO Scavenger
>> Interesting. DDDA screenshots scream "graphics whores!!" but these other games definitely do not. Is DDDA more hardcore than it looks?

Indie fans cluster? Fans of these games.... Serpent in the Staglands, NEO Scavenger, Underrail, Age of Decadence, Salt and Sanctuary, Stardew Valley, Voidspire Tactics, Xenonauts....
- rate 4.0... Fallout 1.5: Resurrection
- rate ~3.5... Elminage: Gothic, Dungeon Rats, Tales of Maj'Eyal (TOME), Heroine's Quest
- Among this group, which excludes the most rabid AoD and Underrail fans, we see a lot of popularity, particularly for AoD. If we exclude both games from the filter, AoD drops further in the ratings. Rampant fanboyism confirmed.

Filthy casuals cluster? Fans of... Stardew Valley, Valkyria Chronicles, Legend of Heroes, Child of Light, Transistor...
...also like Shadowruns, Dragon's Dogma, Serpent in the Staglands
...and Salt and Sanctuary, Invisible, Inc. (but only rate them ~3.5)
>> possible Cyberpunk cluster

 

[Mareus]

CLUSTER ANALYSIS

Age of Decadence fans favor these games more than other voters:
1. Child of Light
2. Invisible, Inc.
3. Salt and Sanctuary
4. Thea: The Awakening
Popular favorites: Underrail, Dungeon Rats

Underrail fans favor...
1. Hand of Fate
2. Invisible, Inc.
3. Child of Light
Popular favorites: Dark Souls, AoD, Dragon's Dogma

Pillars of Eternity fans favor...
1. Tyranny
2. Expedition: Conquistador
3. Serpent in the Staglands
Popular favorites: TW3, Shadowrun DF, Expeditions: Conquistador

Divinity: Original Sin fans favor...
1. Thea: The Awakening
2. Invisible, Inc.
3. Salt and Sanctuary
4. Consortium
5. NEO Scavenger
Popular favorites: Underrail, AoD, Shadowrun DF & HK

Fans of the Big 4 (AoD, Underrail, PoE, D:OS) favor...
1. Blackguards
2. Valkyria Chronicles
3. Deus Ex: MD
>> surprise: fanboys have poor taste?

RTwP cluster: fans of these 4 games favor nothing else:
1. Pillars of Eternity
2. Serpent in the Staglands
3. Tyranny
4. Expedition: Conquistador
>> WL2 was also popular among this crowd, but they only rated it 3.

Shadowrun fans like Shadowrun Returns, HK, DF (in that order)
...and Stardew Valley

Stardew Valley fans like SitS, Shadowrun, Underrail, and Valkyria Chronicles
>> Matt Barton kept asking about this one on the radio show. Looks kinda casual but maybe interesting. Do we have a review of it?

Valkyria Chronicles fans like Dragon's Dogma, Shadowrun HK, Child of Light, Transistor, Dark Souls II, The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
:anime: :fabulous:

Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen fans like Stardew Valley, Avernum II: Crystal Souls, NEO Scavenger
>> Interesting. DDDA screenshots scream "graphics whores!!" but these other games definitely do not. Is DDDA more hardcore than it looks?

Indie fans cluster? Fans of these games.... Serpent in the Staglands, NEO Scavenger, Underrail, Age of Decadence, Salt and Sanctuary, Stardew Valley, Voidspire Tactics, Xenonauts....
- rate 4.0... Fallout 1.5: Resurrection
- rate ~3.5... Elminage: Gothic, Dungeon Rats, Tales of Maj'Eyal (TOME), Heroine's Quest
- Among this group, which excludes the most rabid AoD and Underrail fans, we see a lot of popularity, particularly for AoD. If we exclude both games from the filter, AoD drops further in the ratings. Rampant fanboyism confirmed.

Filthy casuals cluster? Fans of... Stardew Valley, Valkyria Chronicles, Legend of Heroes, Child of Light, Transistor...
...also like Shadowruns, Dragon's Dogma, Serpent in the Staglands
...and Salt and Sanctuary, Invisible, Inc. (but only rate them ~3.5)
>> possible Cyberpunk cluster

So the only logical conclusion is that everyone is retarded.

 

[laclongquan]

I don't mean a new voting, I mean making reviews for the games we just elected.

Where? On which thread? What is the procedure for submitting a review?

Let's try this again: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ty-review-thread-get-in-here-and-help.113633/

^GO THERE the help us writing about the games that won the poll.

I have been there and do my duty for F1.5R. As for other games, we shall see if the muse's in the mood to drive me with whips and hot wax.

 

[gaussgunner]

So the only logical conclusion is that everyone is retarded.

Yeah, basically. Undiscriminating fans skew the ratings. This despite eliminating some obvious outliers (users who hardly post, games with few votes, games with low ratings).

There is a subset of more discriminating codexers who are willing to try indie games with shitty graphics or "non-hardcore elements". They don't seem too impressed with the "hidden gems" on offer. It's something, though.

Market conditions in the last 5 years - mobile apps, social media, indie fever, Kickstarter, Greenlight, etc - have attracted moneygrubbing hipster "developers" in droves. It's pretty disheartening for serious developers. You hear all the success stories, you think it's your chance to make games for a living, then you realize the market is flooded with "indie" shovelware and you don't have much of a chance. Want to hire a team? Forget it, unless you're rich. Crowdfunding only works if you pander to the undiscriminating fans, and it really helps if you're already successful. You realize that you're never going to make a decent game unless it's a "labor of love" with no real prospect of financial reward at the end. And I mean "decent" at best, not great, unless you can assemble a team of volunteers who agree on anything to build an open-source game. Never say never, but good fucking luck with that....

 

[Lurker King]

Here is another suggestion to make stat/skill checks great again. Make most skill/stat checks invisible and associated with emergent gameplay. That way players can feel they are being more active and still be subjected to restrictions. The problem with this suggestion: you have to try builds in the dark because you don’t know the precise number to beat a skill check.

 

[Lurker King]

Stardew Valley >> Matt Barton kept asking about this one on the radio show. Looks kinda casual but maybe interesting. Do we have a review of it?

It's a Harvest Moon rip off inspired game with new bells and whistles. Looks good with you like RPGs with farm mechanics.

 

[Jasede]

It's not an RPG. Not sure why it was on the list.

 

[Lurker King]

Besides the fact you have skills and choices? I thought you said that there is no consensus about the nature of RPGs!

 

[Jasede]

No, there is a consensus: an RPG is what I say is one. It's a very reliable measure:

Deus Ex: FPS with RPG elements / hybrid
System Shock 2: see above
Jagged Alliance 2: strategy game with RPG elements
Stardew Valley: Harvest Moon-like (its own genre, like Rune Factory; heavy RPG elements but a very distinct feeling; not an RPG)
Oblivion: RPG. Sadly. A low point, certainly.
Witcher 3: Action-Adventure that may or may not be an RPG; it borrows the RPG structure from MMORPGs but it plays like an action adventure with RPG elements... it's a tough decision.

 

[Lurker King]

Let's see, Stardew Valley:

The player is able to have children after they upgraded their house for the second and final time and are in a marriage. If the player is married to a character of the same sex, you will be able to adopt children.

:incloosive:

Children can be dismissed late game by interacting with a dark shrine inside the Witch's Hut. By offering the shrine a Prismatic Shard it will allow players to turn children into doves, making them leave the farm forever.

Once dismissed, children are gone for good and can not be returned.

They might as well sacrifice them in a fucking altar to receive powers, for fuck sake.

 

[toro]

No, there is a consensus: an RPG is what I say is one. It's a very reliable measure:

Deus Ex: FPS with RPG elements / hybrid
System Shock 2: see above
Jagged Alliance 2: strategy game with RPG elements
Stardew Valley: Harvest Moon-like (it's own genre, like Rune Factory; heavy RPG elements but a very distinct feeling; not an RPG)
Oblivion: RPG. Sadly. A low point, certainly.
Witcher 3: Action-Adventure that may or may not be an RPG; it borrows the RPG structure from MMORPGs but it plays like an action adventure with RPG elements... it's a tough decision.

You did not answer the fundamental question: Is AoD an RPG?

 

[Repulsive]

But it's all about story, not gameplay. From a mechnical point of view all these exciting things boiled down to choosing one dialog line over another. That's what I found underwhelming.

By that definition, the only gameplay we have in cRPGs is combat. To interact with the environment by clicking this is not gameplay, 99% of what happens in “Darklands” is not gameplay, “King of the Dragon Pass” doesn’t have any gameplay. That’s and arbitrary and simplistic definition of gameplay.

The point was that a game, built around replayability, should make sure that first playthroughs are exciting enough to hook the player, and the non-combat ones in AoD certainly aren't.

It's not excting enough because you are being purposely obtuse and ignoring the examples I'm presenting. You can do a billion things and this is not good gameplay, but somehow a shallow, poorly writen and superficial game such as Shadowrun has good gameplay? The exploration is poor, the combat is poor, the itemization is poor, everything is poor, but you give it a 5. Go figure. The wonders of rationalization.

Not really, no. The amount of no-turning-back scenarios in AoD is much larger.

You obviously don't know the game you are trying to criticize. The main quests provide you with tons of opportunities, but you are just dissmissing the whole thing because you don't care. At least posters like Toro don't pretend to have any arguments and are openly irrational. They don't make us lose our time and don't pretend to have a interest in a meaningful discussion.

+1

 

[Latelistener]

You did not answer the fundamental question: Is AoD an RPG?

Obviously it's a puzzle game.

 

[Jasede]

No, there is a consensus: an RPG is what I say is one. It's a very reliable measure:

Deus Ex: FPS with RPG elements / hybrid
System Shock 2: see above
Jagged Alliance 2: strategy game with RPG elements
Stardew Valley: Harvest Moon-like (it's own genre, like Rune Factory; heavy RPG elements but a very distinct feeling; not an RPG)
Oblivion: RPG. Sadly. A low point, certainly.
Witcher 3: Action-Adventure that may or may not be an RPG; it borrows the RPG structure from MMORPGs but it plays like an action adventure with RPG elements... it's a tough decision.

You did not answer the fundamental question: Is AoD an RPG?

Are Lone Wolf adventure books RPGs?

 

[toro]

No, there is a consensus: an RPG is what I say is one. It's a very reliable measure:

Deus Ex: FPS with RPG elements / hybrid
System Shock 2: see above
Jagged Alliance 2: strategy game with RPG elements
Stardew Valley: Harvest Moon-like (it's own genre, like Rune Factory; heavy RPG elements but a very distinct feeling; not an RPG)
Oblivion: RPG. Sadly. A low point, certainly.
Witcher 3: Action-Adventure that may or may not be an RPG; it borrows the RPG structure from MMORPGs but it plays like an action adventure with RPG elements... it's a tough decision.

You did not answer the fundamental question: Is AoD an RPG?

Are Lone Wolf adventure books RPGs?

You are beating around the bush. Be a MAN and break the curse!