The Codex's official opinion on VtM Bloodlines

[Clockwork Knight]

Well, it's untrue, since you can sneak, buuuut:

You are not FORCED to fight them. You can do it the sneaky way. Hope that helps.

Well, BC's point was that if you are scandalous about it you still only get a slap on the wrist, while scaring off a random fag on the street takes ten Points from Gryffindor.

Doesn't really detract from the games as a...game, but it's still a case where ingame coherency is pushed aside for no reason other than let the warrior character fight.

 

[Glyphwright]

Well, it's untrue, since you can sneak, buuuut:

You are not FORCED to fight them. You can do it the sneaky way. Hope that helps.

Well, BC's point was that if you are scandalous about it you still only get a slap on the wrist, while scaring off a random fag on the street takes ten Points from Gryffindor.

Doesn't really detract from the games as a...game, but it's still a case where ingame coherency is pushed aside for no reason other than let the warrior character fight.

Don't you have a problem with the sheer concept of an automatic Masquerade violation, before the bum even has a chance to tell it someone? It could have been done better, sure. Still, it's a video game. And WoD itself has so much internal inconsistency and cheesiness, there's really little justification in bashing Troika for that.

The only reason this was ever brought up is a butthurt girl trying to bait someone into getting trolled.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Don't you have a problem with the sheer concept of an automatic Masquerade violation, before the bum even has a chance to tell it someone

Not really, I wouldn't even "notice" if not for the "its consistent ingame and youa re umb if you disagree!

" posts

 

[Glyphwright]

o, lol

 

[FeelTheRads]

Weaboos crying about setting inconsistencies. Pretty funny.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

You could also see it as "Elite minds suddenly become crying fanbois the instant someone points the inconsistencies in a game they like"

 

[Phelot]

I enjoyed the game... for an FPS RPG even though the combat was atrocious and it really isn't worth playing through more then a few times despite whatever new feature WESP comes out with. I thought the writing was great and very real. I mean, there's hardly any long winded rants like in Bioware games, it really flows together.

Although, at times I play this shit with "money 2.0"

Yeah bitches, you know what I'm talkin' bout

 

[CrimHead]

Per usual, here's my thread summary:

THIS GAME BUTCHERED THE LORE OF MY FAVORITE GOTH VAMPIRE UNDERGROUND NON CONFORMIST LARP FUCK YOU

NO U

ART DIRECTION

In all seriousness, though, I think the game has a laughably immature setting, but extremely memorable characters, great writing, top notch voice acting, and deep character customization. So yeah, get's my seal of approval.

Edit: Fix'd

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The picture for Konjad's quote wouldn't load, but it still made sense

 

[Radisshu]

INTERNAL COHERENCY. Those are the keywords, okay? I don't give a shit about the source material, because the source material is retarded. Sure, you may be right in that Bloodlines doesn't do a very faithful adaption of WoD, BUT THAT'S A GOOD THING.

Then why people gets so worked up about us mentioning it really isn't a faithful adaptation, when we both have said as a game in and out of itself is either good for what it is, as have I, or good, as did he, or anything in between, as did others? You people aren't being internally coherent about it.

You people? I'm a single person, not a people. And the reason I'm annoyed are lorefags who act all butthurt about a game not following the lore, when a strict interpretation of the lore would include shit that would break the game's mood completely, "for the lulz" sidequests aside.

Also, I have already mentioned the presence of several cases where the game breaks it's own internal coherency for teh lulz, so it doesn't really add up. What's the answer to that? That I have to excuse them for it because it's Troika, or that I should imagine an explanation myself? Since when it's acceptable to make oneself things up that would explain the game's fucks up in The Codex?

Oh, Black Cat. Nothing Troika does that sort of breaks the coherency of the in-game setting would feel less like a "okay, they're pulling this out of their ass" than suddenly having the Technocracy send MiB's to Santa Monica and then nuking it.

The difference being that the FO setting isn't retarded, and doesn't feature elements that would completely break the game were they introduced. FO3 is a sequel to F1 and F2, while Bloodlines is a computer game adaption of a PnP setting.

No, it isn't. Bloodlines isn't actually a game of it's own. Bloodlines' an official White Wolf metaplot canonical product, and as such it following the lore and the setting to the least detail is expected.

Bloodlines is an official White Wolf game, yes, but it's obviously also a game of its (not "it's", that means "it is") own. Becayse, y'know, it's a game. Of its own. You can play Bloodlines without knowing shit about WoD, and Troika obviously designed the game in that manner, whatever White Wolf says about the game's canonity.

Just as a game bearing the Fallout 3 title was expected to do some things and to follow the setting's lore closely and, by not doing it, got a not small part of the Codex calling bullshit on it? That's it. People liking or disliking the setting doesn't make the behaviour any less pathetic and any less of an evidence of retarded fanboyism, double standards, and people praising this and that because Troika did it and nothing more.

Uh, are you arguing against me, or the entire codex? The hivemind doesn't actually exist, you know, it's just a meme. The quality of the setting obviously changes what I feel of the lore rape. Look, I'm just not a lorefag. If the game is good, it's good. F3 was shit, but not because of raped lore. And if they got the lore right, but did everything else the Bethestard way, it'd still be shit. In the same way, Bloodlines is a good game, whether it follows the (stupid) WoD lore strictly or not.

This is just another case of Fair Codexia talks out of it's butt, as shown by this little argument. Carry on, nothing to see here, etc.

Maybe you'd do better if you didn't view the people arguing against you as a single entity. I've been very clear with what I think and why, and I am no Troika worshipper.

 

[Grunker]

In all fairness, Black Cat talking about Codex as a group might be generalization but she is subject to no less from the "weeaboos faggot-teen lol"-crowd. She'd be the bigger woman if she didn't do it, sure, but then again, this is the Codex. Can anyone really claim some sort of moral high ground?

 

[Gragt]

Can anyone really claim some sort of moral high ground?

Me, because I got ferrets.

 

[Radisshu]

She'd be the bigger woman if she didn't do it, sure, but then again, this is the Codex.

She'd be better at arguing, at least.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Tbh, Radisshu, your arguments rely a bit too much on "VtM's setting is retarded anyway".

 

[Radisshu]

Tbh, Radisshu, your arguments rely a bit too much on "VtM's setting is retarded anyway".

My arguments rely entirely on that, but I don't think that's a problem. My point is, if the end product is good, how well the product follows lore that doesn't turn up in the game itself is besides the point.

 

[Cassidy]

Kaine

Fixed.

Also,

Don't care whether it clashes with oWoD canon or not. Compared to nWoD, what it does is quite tame, and it is a much better approach than what White Wolf itself decided to do. As for the game itself, it is pretty much like Arcanum and isn't really very good. Gameplay-wise I prefer Deus Ex 1. But it is a truly atmospheric game with cool NPCs, and there is something just right about its pacing in most moments that makes replays feel good. Overall I like it as the flawed gem it is.

Finally, a VtM squad-based strategic CRPG where you assume the control of a Tzismisce to gather flesh and bones as resources and fleshcraft your squad through something like a grimdark version of the Spore creature creator would be interesting.

CCP world of darkness game. Theres not much info on it but its supposed to be aimed to female gamers with an emphasis on social interaction.

 

[Antihero]

By far the game's biggest flaw is how I can avoid paying the hookers by feeding on their blood when nobody's close enough for their AI to react to me.

OK, that's just a plus, but the game would have been more interesting if humanity points and masquerade violations really mattered more than having to fight the occasional vampire hunter (besides losing the game for too many) or, I suppose, frenzying more often. They just felt kind of tacked on. Assuming you didn't run amok killing innocents, I can't recall *that* many times where you'd lose humanity points (from a quest choice) for any significant disadvantage, or even get a masquerade violation except at least for that one spoilerish thing at the beginning in Hollywood. And you'd get a chance for some masquerade redemptions and recovering humanity points anyway, so you'd almost have to go out of your way to be in trouble there or have a strict no-reload policy when you accidentally did something like activate the wrong discipline out in the open.

My main real complaint, after having tried to complete another playthrough multiple times, is that it mostly feels like all the better lines went to the NPCs, and aren't that much better even if you're Malkavian. I know you're still a fledgling, but some of them are just painful, especially when talking to Nines.

 

[SCO]

Install the cammarilla mod if you want that. Personally i don't care to rush through the game as that mod enforces (it makes blood loss very dangerous and fast).

 

[qliveur]

snipe

Jesus Christ, how do you people actually manage to think of all these things instead of just enjoying the game is beyond me

 

[roll-a-die]

snipe

Jesus Christ, how do you people actually manage to think of all these things instead of just enjoying the game is beyond me

Again, I actually enjoy the game quite a bit. At least when I don't think about what's happening. It's quite similar to Fallout 3 in that regard. It's enjoyable to play, at least when it's been modded, but relatively stupid when thought about in context of the universe it's set in.

 

[Jaesun]

jebus fucking christmas.

 

[Murk]

Their complaints are valid, I just seriously don't give a fuuuuucckkkkkk

to busy chillin' and enjoyin' what i enjoy B)

 

[Konjad]

Their complains are indeed valid but I just can't get myself into thinking about it at the time I'm playing a game. Happens to me all the time in many games. I judge the game, see it as something that is not a part of some kind of system but independently. Bloodlines raped WoD, as some states there, so what? WoD, with perhaps some changes, was perfect for it. Not the other way around. It's important that games should use the systems to make them better, not the other way around and use themselves to perfectly fit the systems because they're not a part of these systems and they just pattern on them instead of making new ones. I don't think how Baldur's Gate rapes D&D or how Morrowind rapes TES lore. I just play them as individual games, not as parts of a bigger picture.

 

[Black Cat]

Oh, Black Cat. Nothing Troika does that sort of breaks the coherency of the in-game setting would feel less like a "okay, they're pulling this out of their ass" than suddenly having the Technocracy send MiB's to Santa Monica and then nuking it.

That's a completely wrong reading of what I said. I did not say that should have happened. I said that, given the events transpiring on the main quest, a MiB encounter was much more justified, in setting, than a boss fight against a wereshark.

The point wasn't why didn't they blew Santa Monica to little bits. The point was that you can wonder, if you know the setting, where are the MiBs and their friends while that's happening. If the wereshark weren't there, meanwhile, no one will notice a wereshark could have been there. In other words, it was a pretty gratituous crossover that, from a World of Darkness perspective, added nothing and, instead, presented some possible arguments about it's consistency with the lore.

So my point only was that from a long list of possible crossovers and cameos that made sense on the context they picked the ones that did not. If you are fine with that, good for you. I haven't said you should. I haven't said they should have sent the cyborg sabertooth tigers that shoot lasers from their eyes, either. I was just saying, given the context, they could have chosen better crossovers and cameos. They could, also, have chosen to give more deep to those they made, instead. Like making the werewolves actually fight like werewolves.

My arguments rely entirely on that, but I don't think that's a problem. My point is, if the end product is good, how well the product follows lore that doesn't turn up in the game itself is besides the point.

And that's perfectly fine. And that's, also, why I said several times people on this thread failed their reading rolls. My comment was that as a game, isolated from the White Wolf franchise, it was pretty playable. It could be better, yes, and it could be worse. The first part is good, the last part is awful, and there are both elements to like and dislike. That's my opinion on the end product.

I also said that, if you are into World of Darkness and looking for a World of Darkness oficial product, that's what the game also is, it fails, badly. It contradicts canon, it presents glaring omisions, it doesn't represent at all the time period the game happens into, both the details and the themes and governing ideas could be better translated, etc.

If you only care about the end product or dislike the World of Darkness, then cool, it's a game that could be better but it's not bad at all. If you want an oficial World of Darkness product, then it's pretty bad. That's it. I did not vote the game's awful, I did vote it's good for what it is. Some people just can't seem to cope with criticism against Troika or their favorite game and turned a passing comment into, well, this.

And the reason I'm annoyed are lorefags who act all butthurt about a game not following the lore, when a strict interpretation of the lore would include shit that would break the game's mood completely, "for the lulz" sidequests aside.

Jesus Christ almighty. There's a big difference between it's a playable game but you are not going to like it if you are looking for a White Wolf official product and oh, god, it's an abomination, they failed to keep up with the setting. No one is butthurt about the setting. I'm just arguing because people got into a rage since someone said Bloodlines wasn't perfect. Read again the answer to the previous quote.

Maybe you'd do better if you didn't view the people arguing against you as a single entity.

Well, I'm sorry about that then. The point still stands that I never said Bloodlines was a bad game, I just said it was not a game someone looking for a World of Darkness compliant product would enjoy. And then everyone seemed to jump and read that as saying Bloodlines was a bad game because it wasn't World of Darkness compliant.

If that wasn't the case about you, cool. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

* thread summary *

LOL.

You are not FORCED to fight them. You can do it the sneaky way. Hope that helps.

Ah, sorry. I don't like the Malk nor the Nossie so I never did that. But, then, it also makes the omision more glaring: If you can actually bypass the situation and don't make it to the headlines then, by all means, you should be punished by not bypassing the situation and making it to the headlines since your masquerade breach was completely optional and, so, it's your responsability to have screwed up.

The same could be said of other areas, like slaughtering everyone in the Elizabeth Dane, and actually LaCroix blows his top if you do that one because it was, indeed, a pretty ridiculous way to blow up the Masquerade, in particular if you just Trance them and suck them dry, or slaughtering everyone in the museum, in particular given the cameras spread around the basement.

Depending on your gamemaster both situation would also have killed your Humanity since you actually could have not done so, but that's another story.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Ah, sorry. I don't like the Malk nor the Nossie so I never did that.

I said sneaking, not using Obfuscate. You can sneak with any character, even if you're not that good at sneaking (and you won't need more than 4-5 dots with stealth & dex combined) you can still use some disciplines like the level 1 dementation, domination or animalism spells to distract someone who would otherwise see you and sneak by.

But, then, it also makes the omision more glaring: If you can actually bypass the situation and don't make it to the headlines then, by all means, you should be punished by not bypassing the situation and making it to the headlines since your masquerade breach was completely optional and, so, it's your responsability to have screwed up.

The same could be said of other areas, like slaughtering everyone in the Elizabeth Dane, and actually LaCroix blows his top if you do that one because it was, indeed, a pretty ridiculous way to blow up the Masquerade, in particular if you just Trance them and suck them dry, or slaughtering everyone in the museum, in particular given the cameras spread around the basement.

Depending on your gamemaster both situation would also have killed your Humanity since you actually could have not done so, but that's another story.

Your objective in these scenarios is always to complete the quest without anyone seeing you and without killing anyone. You're told so. You can fail that and nothing too bad happens about it afterwards. What do you think should happen in a CRPG? Game Over?

 

[Black Cat]

I said sneaking, not using Obfuscate. You can sneak with any character, even if you're not that good at sneaking (and you won't need more than 4-5 dots with stealth & dex combined) you can still use some disciplines like the level 1 dementation, domination or animalism spells to distract someone who would otherwise see you and sneak by.

Ok, then change my statement to: I think the way they implemented stealth sucks since it works mostly as an invisibility spell, and in the scene at the chinese club the use of level 1 dementation, domination, and animalism spells would be a pain to use given how many enemies there are on what is mostly a single big room, so it's easier to just kill everybody, as the game doesn't finds fault with doing so.

The argument still stands: You slaughter everyone making them assplode with your mind and make the headlines, nobody cares. A friend of you believes she recognized you and tells your old pals, masquerade violation.

Your objective in these scenarios is always to complete the quest without anyone seeing you and without killing anyone. You're told so. You can fail that and nothing too bad happens about it afterwards. What do you think should happen in a CRPG? Game Over?

Why not? Wasn't LaCroix, from the start, actually looking for an excuse to send you to your death and the entire Santa Monica warehouse mission was mostly the most suicide one he was able to find for a newbie? So, you just dissobeyed the orders he explicitly gave you and both breached the masquerade in a big way and made a lot of attentions turn towards the vampires, be it hunters, human organizations, or other supernaturals. He has the excuse he wanted to get right there: He can claim your head and no one will say anything, given what just transpired.

So you come back, report on the Dane, he thanks you for the report, then sick the Sheriff on your butt. Game over. Given the game doesn't punish you for dissobeying LaCroix on those missions to actually go out of your way to do so is mostly LARPing, there are no game consequences either way.

But instead of giving you more options on how to tackle those quests it seems everyone only cares about masquerade violations when they aren't related to the main quest. A bum sees you forcefully feeding? OMG! You are a dead girl who drinks a museum full of lawmen dry and uses her evil tremere powers in front of the same security cameras that caught her on tape soaking bullets like they are nothing? Who cares.