From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Silva]

Why are DS2 mobs so shitty while DS1/DeS/BB range from fair to good?

Perhaps the same well tuned mechanics that make DS2 so good in PvP (like the higher stamina comsumption) is exactly what makes it so cheap when facing multiples AI enemies? Maybe devs balanced everything for PvP and then forgot the single players aspect?

 

[praetor]

It requires more Dexterity than Strength to use and is quick and nimble rather than slow and designed for poise. It's clearly a Dexterity-type. On top of that it's C/E/B when magically infused, so I guess it's actually an INT weapon? And the rapier is generally superior to the Estoc anyway though it's a tradeoff of counter damage vs. range (for DS2, DS3 fucks up weapon balance further so that the Estoc is superior in every capacity).

what the flying fuck?! is the weapon better on a Str or Dex build? then it's a fucking Str weapon. what arbitrary rule you made up in your mind just to "prove" a point you didn't have in the first place is irrelevant. it's a weapon that scales with Str almost exclusively. it's not even a so called "quality weapon". btw, since when is 12 greater than 12? last i checked, the requirements for the estoc in DS2 are 12/12. do you have any more made up bullshit "facts" you want to state here, or is that all? (and yes, the estoc is better due to reach and moveset)

No one calls weapons strength or dexterity weapons based on scaling, otherwise every weapon in DS3 is simultaneously a strength and dexterity and quality and luck weapon because lol you can infuse them either way. A strength weapon is a big weapon with a high strength requirement that is slow but deals lots of damage/poise damage. That's the build you put strength on a character to play, not to play with a slightly longer version of a Dex weapon. Or at least that's what a strength build should be, as in DS1. In DS2 a strength weapon just generally sucks.

just because DS3 completely fucked the balance of the stats with the retarded "infuse anything into everything", doesn't mean the rest of the goddamned series did as well. that non-argument is fucking retarded. plus, even in DS3 a str weapon infused with str is better than that same weapon infused with dex (as is the other way around)

and everybody calls weapons by their best scaling attribute. nobody with at least 2 working neurons has ever called the DS2 estoc "a dex weapon". nobody.

goddamn, man. usually you're an intelligent and reasonable poster. wtf happened?

 

[Average Manatee]

It requires more Dexterity than Strength to use and is quick and nimble rather than slow and designed for poise. It's clearly a Dexterity-type. On top of that it's C/E/B when magically infused, so I guess it's actually an INT weapon? And the rapier is generally superior to the Estoc anyway though it's a tradeoff of counter damage vs. range (for DS2, DS3 fucks up weapon balance further so that the Estoc is superior in every capacity).

what the flying fuck?! is the weapon better on a Str or Dex build? then it's a fucking Str weapon. what arbitrary rule you made up in your mind just to "prove" a point you didn't have in the first place is irrelevant. it's a weapon that scales with Str almost exclusively. it's not even a so called "quality weapon".

Thrusting weapons are DEX weapons. No one calls them strength weapons. By your own rule it's an INT weapon since no one doesn't infuse weapons in Dark Souls 2. So either it's an INT or a DEX weapon, it can't be STR.

btw, since when is 12 greater than 12? last i checked, the requirements for the estoc in DS2 are 12/12.

It was 10/12 in DS1, so w/e. Apparently it's also scaling with Dex in DS1, so it's an aberration in DS2 that it defaults to Str anyway. 12/12 is quality anyway, not strength.

(and yes, the estoc is better due to reach and moveset)

Only in PvP do you care about reach because you can add an extra 2-3 feet of phantom lag reach to stab people at retardedly long distance. PvE is generally about punishing the enemy and you have all the time in the world to spend .25s getting closer to massively more damage. Moveset is the same except Estoc is slightly slower and consumes more stamina. Rapier does around 30-40% more damage per hit along with hitting quicker and for less stamina drain.

and everybody calls weapons by their best scaling attribute. nobody with at least 2 working neurons has ever called the DS2 estoc "a dex weapon". nobody.

If someone asks you "hey bro I want a Strength build what should I go for?" you don't hand them a god damn Estoc, because anyone intelligent can figure out that someone wanting to play a Strength build doesn't want to play with the exact same weapon and tactics that 90% of Dex builds use. Dex and Str weapons are defined by a specific paradigm, that of Quick & lower damage vs. Slow & higher damage. Try searching for "Dark Souls 2 best strength weapon" and see if people are recommending the Estoc. It's always the things that are traditionally associated with strength, not an arbitrary scaling.

In case you haven't noticed the stats on the character screen are entirely meaningless, a 40 strength character and a 40 dexterity character have no actual difference aside from arbitrary damage values. What differentiates character archetypes is weapon movesets. Thrusting sword is a dex-type moveset regardless of whether the stat you are using is strength, dexterity, intelligence, faith, or luck, or nothing for Raw.

In any case, best DS2 weapon is the rapier, so I'm not sure why all this matters. If it pleases you, change my "Str weapons suck" to "non-thrusting Str weapons suck", it really changes nothing. If you want to smash something in DS2 all the options suck.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Parries with the proper shield have more iframes than rolls AND you only need to "hit" a single frame to succeed in a parry while a roll needs the entire enemy's attack to whiff through your iframes. Then you don't have to spend stamina to dodge further hits in a combo and instead immediately go into an entirely invincible animation that ends in massive damage.

It sounds like you are talking about boss fights, which is kinda irrelevant, since the vast majority of bosses cannot be parried, and have to be dodged (or blocked). Against bosses, rolling does sometimes have to on a tight time schedule, because some of their attacks can cover a lot of area. But I am talking about enemies where you have a choice between parrying and rolling, like common hollows, knights, etc. Against those, rolling is WWAAAAAAYYYY easier. It doesn't have to be exact at all, you just roll when you see the enemy begin to move, and that will take you out of the way of their attack 99% of the time, even if the roll was not synced to their attack. With parries, you have to sync the parry exactly to the attack, so yes, it is much more skill-based.

 

[Average Manatee]

It sounds like you are talking about boss fights, which is kinda irrelevant, since the vast majority of bosses cannot be parried, and have to be dodged (or blocked). Against bosses, rolling does sometimes have to on a tight time schedule, because some of their attacks can cover a lot of area. But I am talking about enemies where you have a choice between parrying and rolling, like common hollows, knights, etc. Against those, rolling is WWAAAAAAYYYY easier. It doesn't have to be exact at all, you just roll when you see the enemy begin to move, and that will take you out of the way of their attack 99% of the time, even if the roll was not synced to their attack. With parries, you have to sync the parry exactly to the attack, so yes, it is much more skill-based.

If you aren't using the I-frames of a roll and are using it purely for movement then you're not really using the roll, just doing the equivalent of walking around in style (and wasting stamina). Yes, you can beat a hilarious number of enemies and bosses just by walking behind them into a blind spot.

Most of the big enemies are very, very easy to parry. The small ones that have quick attacks you just smack before they hit you. I guess you could parry every hollow in the game if you wanted but there's no good reason to do so.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

If you aren't using the I-frames of a roll and are using it purely for movement then you're not really using the roll, just doing the equivalent of walking around in style (and wasting stamina). Yes, you can beat a hilarious number of enemies and bosses just by walking behind them into a blind spot.

Rolling is not like walking, it's way faster.

 

[Average Manatee]

Rolling is not like walking, it's way faster.

Sorry, talking the standard jog-ish movement speed. Forgot walking existed in DS. It's really close in speed to the roll.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Rolling is not like walking, it's way faster.

Sorry, talking the standard jog-ish movement speed. Forgot walking existed in DS. It's really close in speed to the roll.

That's what I am talking abiout too. If you try to just move in combat while locked on, it's walking speed sideways I think, jogging speed forward. Rolling is faster than either.

 

[Average Manatee]

Lock on is for newbs though. Maybe I'm biased since with KB/M it's trivially easy to avoid lock on, I've basically never done it in DS2 or 3.

Also

But I am talking about enemies where you have a choice between parrying and rolling, like common hollows, knights, etc.

You know, I was just thinking "maybe he's right and I'm exaggerating how easy it is to parry everything". After all, I'd never even tried parrying in DS2.

Then I went to the hollows and parried like 10x in a row with a bucker, completely flawlessly. Did the Drangleic swordsman knights and again 10/10. I went to the spearman knights in king's gate, did 6/10 (somewhat annoying moveset). Did the Ruin Sentinel, 9/10. It's kind of difficult to time if you are using medium shields or something else non-optimal but if I can do it this well on a buckler having never, ever even attempted it before in the entire game then it's too easy. Basically if you've seen the enemy's attacks and know the timing to roll through them, you can nail the timing to parry them almost 100%. The margin of error is very, very generous with the right shield.

 

[L'Montes]

Oh yay, I spent like ten to twenty seconds sniping some bitch in Amana to death with shitty wooden arrows. Fun!
The fact they are cheap doesn't change the fact that its tedious as hell to do.

They nerfed the tracking on the Amana projectile-hurlers awhile after launch too. I guess that says something about intent, kinda.

So all those retards telling me Amana is the greatest level ever never even fought them? Figures.

They were miffed about the range-tactics I think. Binoculars + Lightning spears + range to annihilate all the water-borne enemies was kinda popular (pre-lightning spear charges nerf).

Launch Amana both had stronger tracking, but they also locked on from longer distances and saw you through walls. So, on consoles, you'd have projectiles incoming before they rendered.

It sounds like you are talking about boss fights, which is kinda irrelevant, since the vast majority of bosses cannot be parried, and have to be dodged

Not the case in Dark Souls 2, to the extent you're talking about that. There's a huge chunk of the bosses that are parryable (most of the humanoid ones, which is most of the bosses).

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

You know, I was just thinking "maybe he's right and I'm exaggerating how easy it is to parry everything". After all, I'd never even tried parrying in DS2.

Then I went to the hollows and parried like 10x in a row with a bucker, completely flawlessly. Did the Drangleic swordsman knights and again 10/10. I went to the spearman knights in king's gate, did 6/10 (somewhat annoying moveset). Did the Ruin Sentinel, 9/10. It's kind of difficult to time if you are using medium shields or something else non-optimal but if I can do it this well on a buckler having never, ever even attempted it before in the entire game then it's too easy. Basically if you've seen the enemy's attacks and know the timing to roll through them, you can nail the timing to parry them almost 100%.

Well, maybe you are just naturally gifted. Cause if you google parry and DS2, there are about a thousand results to the tune of "WTF I can't parry in DS2!!!!".

 

[Average Manatee]

Well, maybe you are just naturally gifted. Cause if you google parry and DS2, there are about a thousand results to the tune of "WTF I can't parry in DS2!!!!".

Well I'm sure plenty of people don't know the differences between shields, it's kind of obscure and you have to look it up. Non-bucklers are really awful at parrying, especially medium shields, since you have to predict way in advance. If I was working at From one of the many things I would do to fix DS4 would be to make all light shields have the same parry frames since there's really no reason to use light shields other than parrying.

In any case my point is that if you know when to dodge you know when to parry, the timing window is that similar. There's not really any special skill to practice, anyone naturally playing the game is figuring out when attacks come and thereby learning when to parry or dodge at the same time. Which is arguably a good thing, just the effect of parrying is way overpowered. If it merely allowed you an opening for a single normal attack during which you weren't invincible it'd be much more balanced (for PvE, there's really no fixing it for PvP).

 

[Adon]

Aaand the Burnt Ivory King is down!

Spoiler

I then decided to take a quick peek at Brume Tower, and the place looks amazing.

I can see why people think the DLC areas are best in DaS2. So far in the base game the locations are better than DaS1, but the level design hasn't been and that's easily one of the stronger points of Frozen Eleum Loyce. I think I had the most fun in Frigid Outskirts, tho, just because of the uncertainty of whether or not I was even heading anywhere. Although there wasn't really much to explore and it was a pain to go back to the boss fight in that area when I died; luckily I got a better sense of the area and got there within 5ish minutes over the 15-20 I initially took. If I had to complain about anything in Loyce was how bloated Aava's HP seemed to be.

 

[Beggar]

I'm doing my run also with a greatsword. Done with the Aldia's Keep, soon I'll reach DLC content

 

[Adon]

Spoiler

Just finished Brume Tower. That has to be one of the most exhausting experiences I've had with Dark Souls. The only other time I sighed with relief after a boss fight was when I defeated Artorias the first time. Having said that, I did enjoy the fights with Sir Alonne and Fume Knight. I had adjust my playstyle a bit and ended up changing from a Greatsword +10 to the Curved Nil Greastsword +5. The only thing I wasn't crazy about the Sir Alonne fight was getting there every time, but it wasn't nearly as bad as getting to the Smelter Demon. Overall, I'd say weaker than Loyce, but still a nice challenge in regards to its bosses (with the exception of the rehashed Smelter Demon). But I should've known I wasn't going to like this as much seeing how much of it is based on Iron Keep which is one of the weaker areas of the game.

 

[No Great Name]

Decided to go to the Demon's Ruins this time and wow the lava glow gets to you after a while. First up was the Ceaseless Discharge which wasn't a tough fight at all once I figured out how to dodge its attacks. Later while wandering around the new area that opened up after defeating this boss I got gangraped by 5 Taurus Demons. Apparently they were all just sitting there in and because of the lava glow, I didn't notice them until it was too late. After fighting through a bunch of Capra Demons, I came across what I think is one of the most annoying enemies in the game; these giant millipede-looking things that flail around and break your equipment. Fuck these guys. After screwing around a bit, I finally went into the boss room to take on the Firesage Demon, but he turned out to be easier than Stray Demon so there wasn't too much of a fight.

Continuing through, there was another boss fight shortly after, this time against Centipede Demon which was an interesting but annoying fight for two main reasons. First the lava which meant that I really couldn't move around much and I had to wait for the Centipede Demon to come to me. Second, every time the Centipede Demon did something, the screen would shake a lot making it hard to properly target what I want to target. I ended up cutting off its tail somehow and then I was surprised when I saw that the tail just took a life of its own and started attacking me in conjunction with the body.

Moving onwards to Lost Izalith, I see what everyone means now when they talk about. This is my least favorite area of the game by far. It's just a complete slog. I think there was a lot of wasted potential here for sure. I did think that Bed of Chaos was an interesting boss that was very different from all of the others and it took me a few attempts to get the roll timing down to avoid most of its attacks. After a couple of hilarious failed attempts (one of them I was going for the jump to the center to reach the last area for the final blow and the boss just swatted me out of the sky and killed me) I put it down for good and got its Lord Soul.

After this boss, I decided to return to Blighttown to that one giant tree area I discovered earlier, but this time I was ready to fully explore it. I was much more cautious and so I didn't get cursed this time around and safely made it to the bottom of the tree and found myself in Ash Lake. Wow what a brilliant place this is. I really liked the concept of it and I just wish there was a bit more to it. Reached the end to find the covenant where you can LARP as a dragon, but I wasn't interested since I play in offline mode anyways and don't do PvP. Since I was able to take care of the hydra here, I remembered that there was a hydra I came across earlier in Darkroot Basin so I went there next. I then found a weird orange crystal golem around the corner behind, killed it, and found some girl that was trapped inside of it. I later found out that that is the first step to reaching the DLC area in the game so I'll have to keep my eye out for that.

I plan to take on Valley of the Drakes and Duke's Archives for the next session.

 

[sullynathan]

Dark Souls 2 fags, please go to the Dark Souls 2 thread. It says a lot about the game since you're posting here

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

In any case my point is that if you know when to dodge you know when to parry, the timing window is that similar. There's not really any special skill to practice, anyone naturally playing the game is figuring out when attacks come and thereby learning when to parry or dodge at the same time.

But, if I understand correctly, dodging has 2 massive advantages over parrying in DS2. Dodging doesn't have a windup time. As soon as you see the enemy begin their attack animation, you can dodge, which is how parrying worked in DS1, but in DS2, there is a windup (even for a parrying buckler, it's like 11 frames). So that means you can't just react to the enemy as with dodges, but you have to anticipate their actions.

The issue with anticipating their actions is that most enemies have different types of attacks. Some are slow, some are very fast. So it's more a matter of guessing than skill. If you anticipate a fast attack, and parry ahead of that, and they attack slowly that time, you are SOL. Maybe they have some tiny tells about what kind of attack there is, but learning and memorizing these for every single enemy type seems a LOT of work, and I don't even know if these exist.

The other massive advantage is that you can increase roll iFrames by raising ADAPT stat. Nothing like that for parries.

 

[Silva]

I dunno, maybe if I play as a sorcerer... Parry is the only interesting melee option in DS games, because rolling against humanoids is kinda retarded, and hiding behind a shield is pointless.

I'd like to go back to this, because I totally agree. I do think there is this sweet spot where hiding behind a shield is good design-wise, and that's early to mid-game, with small or medium shields mostly, where you must carefully manage it in a way that there's always a risk to miscalculate and have your poise broken and take damage. Unfortunately, this sweet spot doesn't take long as the game throws a bunch of equipables at you making this risk-reward gambit turn into a all-reward safe bet. Because of this, the mode of play that stays more consistently "fun" /non-cheese/dull througout the game design-wise is parrying.

 

[Arnust]

Nothing like that for parries.

You increase/change your parries with different shields/weapon classes, so no.

 

[Average Manatee]

But, if I understand correctly, dodging has 2 massive advantages over parrying in DS2. Dodging doesn't have a windup time. As soon as you see the enemy begin their attack animation, you can dodge, which is how parrying worked in DS1, but in DS2, there is a windup (even for a parrying buckler, it's like 11 frames). So that means you can't just react to the enemy as with dodges, but you have to anticipate their actions.

The issue with anticipating their actions is that most enemies have different types of attacks. Some are slow, some are very fast. So it's more a matter of guessing than skill. If you anticipate a fast attack, and parry ahead of that, and they attack slowly that time, you are SOL. Maybe they have some tiny tells about what kind of attack there is, but learning and memorizing these for every single enemy type seems a LOT of work, and I don't even know if these exist.

True, but this only matters the first few times you see an attack. After that you can anticipate it and then parry has a gigantic window.

The other massive advantage is that you can increase roll iFrames by raising ADAPT stat. Nothing like that for parries.

ADP isn't a bonus, it's a penalty. Basically something you have to sink 30 or so levels in to in order to play the game properly. Not that this matters terribly much considering Dark Souls 2 ends you at around 175 or so.

 

[No Great Name]

Haven't been able to play in the last couple days since university classes have started and I have't had the time until now.

This time, I was finally able to explore the Valley of Drakes, but I didn't realize just how small the area was. I guess it serves more as a link between the different areas instead of being a full area onto itself. So with that out of the way, I decided to take on the Duke's Archives next. When I first encountered Seath the Scaleless I was confused because not only did I have no way of hitting him, but I found that I was also able to leave the arena through the same fog door I came in unlike every other boss fight. Seeing as I didn't have anywhere else I could've gone, I went back in and decided to ignore Seath and explore the room, thinking maybe there was another exit. After he two-shot me and I died, I woke up inside of a prison and that's when I realized that it was one of those unwinnable fights that RPGs like to throw at the player sometimes.

There wasn't all that much to the prison area in all honesty, especially when I realized that those weird jellyfish/medusa looking creatures are more intimidating than they are an actual threat. The library section though was a bit annoying to navigate no thanks to constantly being bombarded by enemy archers (their arrows do a fuckton of damage to me) and enemy channelers throwing magic bolts at me from the sky, but eventually I managed to find the way through and reached the outdoors area which lead to the Crystal Caves. This area is definitely a neat concept and I liked how the game switched the source of the challenge up from throwing tons of enemies at you back in the library and prison section to navigating the level instead. Crossing over the invisible paths will always be unnerving to me and I cheesed some of the big crystal golem fights by somehow getting them to throw themselves off of the narrow platform we were fighting on.

The fight against Seath was fun too, although I beat him on the second try and his crystal attack would make my computer lag a bit. I tried cutting off his tail but I ran out of healing and decided to end the fight rather than risk dying again.

Next time I play I plan on going back to Darkroot Basin and starting up the DLC area since the only Lord Soul I have left to collect is the one in the New Londo Ruins. I think I'm starting to get close to the end of the game.

 

[No Great Name]

Been some time but I got some time to play some more. First up for the DLC was the Sanctuary Guardian and wow. Compared to other bosses I've fought so far, this guy is really aggressive. Thankfully his patterns were pretty simple once I've seen them and I took it out on the second try. Oolacile is both a fascinating and incredibly annoying place at the same time. The wooded area reminded me a lot of back when I played Gothic for the first time as I just skirted around the edge of the Royal Woods to not aggro the dangerous enemies that were closer to the center. The big dudes with the hammers had some really intimidating attacks and the reward for killing them and the time it took to do so just weren't worth the effort. After some more exploration I came across a really weird dude with a smug-ass grin on his face who apparently got pulled into this place just like I did, but he's just a weird dude overall and I don't trust him.

Then I came across Artorias. Oh boy, where do I even start with this fight. In all honesty, this is the first boss fight where I just hit a wall. Not only was he really aggressive with very little opportunity for counterhits in between his attacks, but he was also a tank and my weapons were barely chipping away at his health bar with each hit. This boss fight was basically a war of attrition. His attacks were easy enough to dodge once I figured out which direction was best to dodge in (things got a lot easier when I started dodging to the right rather than to the left for some reason), it was just a matter of figuring out when it was safe to actually try and hit him once before backing off. On top of that, he would buff himself up to do increased damage to my health and stamina making not only healing a big issue, but stamina management as well. I tried a number of different weapons and ended up settling on the Painted Guardian's Sword which although it's range wasn't very good, it did the most damage against Artorias. The fight itself when I did finally beat him lasted a good 10 minutes because of how patiently I had to play against him, but when I finally did beat him, it felt incredibly satisfying. This boss battle was a very different kind of fight than the other bosses so far in this game.

I was struggling with him for a good while, but I think the turning point came when I noticed that when he buffed himself, there would be a large amount of dark smoke coming from his body and his sword during an attack. Not only that, but I also noticed that after about a minute or so, that same smoke would then decrease to the level it was at when you first enter the boss room. After putting two and two together, I realized that his attack buff was actually temporary. What this meant for my strategy was that when he wasn't buffed, I could take more risks when it came to looking for those counterhits between his attacks and when he was buffed up, I played more cautiously and conservatively until his buff wore out. After I realized this, it was just a matter of executing everything correctly.

I went back to the bonfire after defeating Artorias and then came back to see some woman who made a grave for him there. She asked me for his sole and boy did I make the right choice. I got 2 incredibly good Dex weapons as a reward for it and I have officially replaced my Painted Guardian Sword with the Gold Tracer which was superior in every way. I explored some of the Township afterwards but haven't got too far just yet. That'll have to wait for next time.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Haha, you have a lot more patience than me. No way I could wait through his buff, it lasts forever. For me the challenge was more figuring out when to dodge exactly, as my reflexes aint that great, and some of his attacks come super fast. You can also hit him during his buff up, to stop the buffing process, but I dunno, for me that was harder than just dealing with the buff. Have fun with McManus, he is even more annoying.

Meanwhile, I am getting a little better at parrying in Dark Souls 2. With a parrying buckler, I am now parrying at maybe 70% clip against most enemies, except those annoying hollow swordsmen, whose attacks I just cannot figure out for some reason. The half-health decay mechanic is annoying as hell.

 

[No Great Name]

Haha, you have a lot more patience than me. No way I could wait through his buff, it lasts forever. For me the challenge was more figuring out when to dodge exactly, as my reflexes aint that great, and some of his attacks come super fast. You can also hit him during his buff up, to stop the buffing process, but I dunno, for me that was harder than just dealing with the buff. Have fun with McManus, he is even more annoying.

If I was right on top of him I could hit him 5 times max when he started trying to buff himself before the forcefield came out and it wasn't enough to stagger him so I couldn't go for that particular strategy unfortunately. Figuring out how to roll to dodge his attacks was the easy part for me since my reflexes are pretty decent. The hard part for me was trying to figure how to successfully squeeze in my own attacks while still staying safe.

As for the patience, I didn't have a choice. I looked it up later, but Artorias has 3,750 health according to some wiki. My weapon was at most dealing about 60 damage per attack and that was with my strongest weapon which was a +10 Painted Guardian Sword.