From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Elwro]

But this encounter encourages rote learning and is something you cannot really react to by being smart and vigilant. Gotta learn the pattern and that's all...

 

[Cryomancer]

Never understood the hate that persists to this very day for Bed of Chaos. Like avoiding pitfalls and environmental hazards is some unheard of bullshit that From conjured up and foisted upon everyone.

A lot of reasons.

• Platforming on DS is not good
• The road to reach the boss is long
• Her attacks are OHK and hard to predict. I an not against OHK attacks but OHK attacks which you can't do anything to prevent being hit but being lucky...
• Her battle is far more lucky to not have the ground failing in your feet than a actual skill battle.
• All area to reach her is probably the most awful area of DS1.
• Is the most gimmicky boss ever
• Is far more lucky based than skill based
• IS a huge disappointment considering all lore behind that boss. Even a mob boss of 10 high rank demons protecting a portal would't be that bad.

 

[vortex]

A lot of reasons.

All of them are valid but is is one of the most unique designs in Dark souls bosses ever.

 

[d1r]

A lot of reasons.

All of them are valid but is is one of the most unique designs in Dark souls bosses ever.

You know, after all that shit you had been through in Lost Izalith, a lot of players just wanted to get out of this god forsaken hell hole, and NOT play a puzzle game at the end.

But then again, SOME PLAYERS EVEN HAD IT WORSE (how about an invasion while fighting Bed of Chaos?):

 

[Silverfish]

A lot of reasons.

• Platforming on DS is not good
• The road to reach the boss is long
• Her attacks are OHK and hard to predict. I an not against OHK attacks but OHK attacks which you can't do anything to prevent being hit but being lucky...
• Her battle is far more lucky to not have the ground failing in your feet than a actual skill battle.
• All area to reach her is probably the most awful area of DS1.
• Is the most gimmicky boss ever
• Is far more lucky based than skill based
• IS a huge disappointment considering all lore behind that boss. Even a mob boss of 10 high rank demons protecting a portal would't be that bad.

1. Good thing there's not much platforming then. With the exception of landing on the roots under BoC's arms (which can be done with a roll, even a heavy roll), it's all about avoiding things rather than parkouring around them.
2. The path is long, but it's also completely safe.
3. Unless you haven't invested into vitality at all, BoC doesn't have any one-shot attacks. Granted, two to three isn't much better.
4. There's no luck with the ground falling away. Just follow the "ring" on the floor or hug the far walls.
5. Agreed, but the worst part is the path from the first bonfire to the second, from there it's easy.
6. Gimmick bosses are good and break monotony.
7. The only element of the fight that comes down to luck is in the final stretch, when you're running down the tunnel to the boss' bug form. If BoC does the firestorm in that tunnel, you're screwed. Otherwise, it's entirely skill based.
8. That's the point. All of the major bosses (aside from Manus and Kalameet if you're brave) are far, far removed from the heights of their power.

 

[cvv]

Never understood the hate that persists to this very day for Bed of Chaos. Like avoiding pitfalls and environmental hazards is some unheard of bullshit that From conjured up and foisted upon everyone.

Yeah. Plus later on it turned out FromSoft is fully capable of creating way worse gimmick bosses but the meme stuck.

 

[cvv]

The greatest DS2 strength is IMO the lack fo BS bosses like Capra demon and bed of chaos...

I've already said it like twice so why not some more - DS2 does most things better than any other FromSoft game. PvP, build variety, dual wielding, power stancing, covenants, NG+, ascetics, no outright terrible levels or bosses and a plenty of great ones (SotFS).

It's one of the greatest games ever made and it's about time even the last remaining vestiges of its bad rep finally fuck off.

 

[Latelistener]

Didn't know Bed of Chaos produced such butthurt. The boss doesn't even reset its stages and the road back is easy and without the need to kill anyone.

The floor crumbles in specific places and unlike with the Stray Demon, very easy to avoid if you're paying at least a bit of attention. I didn't, so that's how I died the first time.

Rolling on the platform below is the probably the hardest thing. One of the hands pushed me and that's how I died the second time.

Overall it was an interesting and refreshing experience, but far from being the hardest in the game.

 

[Metro]

Butthurt is not the right word. It's just terribly designed compared to the other bosses. The game is about combat which is wholly irrelevant for this 'fight.'

 

[RoSoDude]

Nah, Bed of Chaos is the worst shit in the game. Trial and error bottomless pit traps with wide sweeping attacks that knock you around. AoE pyromancies that can hit you before you see any telegraph. It's obvious that From decided to retain your progress because they realized how bullshit it would be otherwise. I'm sure you can get lucky and get through on a couple attempts, but it can be a run killer unless you know some firebomb cheese strats or whatever.

Dark Souls platforming in general is awesome though. It's not that gimmick bosses or platforming are bad, it's that Bed of Chaos in particular is garbage, and the run to it is long and tedious.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

As usual RoSoDude hits it on the head: From didn't have time to playtest Bed of Chaos sufficiently, and the limited playtesting made them realize they needed to fundamentally change the rules of the game for this one particular fight. That is some bad fucking design.

Nothing wrong with gimmick or puzzle bosses (when done well they are a joy), but From made Bed of Chaos a drab and uninteresting gimmick and paved a drab, uninteresting, and mandatory road to her (yes, the path isn't difficult but ohmygod is it long and boring).

I also think it's telling how different people talk about BoC. Some are like "What? I got it on my second try first playthrough!" Others say "I abandoned my 7th, 8th, and 9th playthroughs of DS right before I had to do BoC because the shit is so fucking stupid and poorly designed".
Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[The_Mask]

After a while on the Steam forums, I took BoC as an anti-cheating tool.

A sample: https://steamcommunity.com/app/211420/discussions/0/143388511228730960/

 

[Curratum]

What the hell does any of this mean? The runs to 90% of the bosses in the game are long and tedious. I nearly quit playing a number of times just because I didn't want to deal with another string of multi-minute pointless, dumbfuck runs to beat a boss.

 

[RoSoDude]

The worst boss runs have to be Bed of Chaos (nothing but blinding bloom and constant damage noises from lava while you run and run and run), Four Kings (no lower New Londo Ruins bonfire so you have to take an elevator no matter what), Ornstein and Smough (if you don't take the bonfire inside the main castle and instead take one of the elevators), Seath (boring run over long invisible platforms), and Gwyn (nearly unskippable gauntlet of Black Knights, which just means backstab cheese on repeat). I'll defend many of the others and enjoy how you can learn to take shortcuts dodge past enemies efficiently on your way to the boss, as well as the opportunity to take a breather between attempts, but some are definitely tedious and frustrating. The ones that bother me the most are the runs that take a long time but don't actually offer any challenge between you and the boss.

 

[Lutte]

Imagine thinking bed of chaos isn't garbage when even the developers of the game think it's garbage. Want evidence of it? Bed of Bullshit is the only boss that breaks the very foundation of this game : that you have to do the entirety of a fight again if you die and learn how to handle it better.
Bed of Chaos doesn't reset if you die. Every part of it you've destroyed stays destroyed. They pretty much admitted they designed something stupid and didn't have time to replace it with a new encounter (that boss is in the most rushed area of the game with supreme trash like open space filled with dragon butts) so they made it so you could "cheat" the fight in a way you normally can't.

Dark Souls isn't very good post anor londo anyway. Arguably it is barely good at anor londo, O&S are a great fight, but the level design of anor londo itself isn't very good, it's visually stunning but it's lots of empty spaces with very half assed encounter design. We all remember that moment with the greatbow archer because it's the only moment anything really happens there. If you compare Anor Londo to what immediately precedes it, ie Sen's Fortress, it's a piece of garbage.

 

[The_Mask]

The worst boss runs have to be Bed of Chaos (nothing but blinding bloom and constant damage noises from lava while you run and run and run) [...] I'll defend many of the others and enjoy how you can learn to take shortcuts dodge past enemies efficiently on your way to the boss, as well as the opportunity to take a breather between attempts, but some are definitely tedious and frustrating. The ones that bother me the most are the runs that take a long time but don't actually offer any challenge between you and the boss.

You can try going for BoC from Daughters of Chaos bonfire, in which case it's perfectly made to farm Demon Titanite. Flimsy excuse, but... it's something. *describes rainbow with arms*

 

[RoSoDude]

Imagine thinking bed of chaos isn't garbage when even the developers of the game think it's garbage. Want evidence of it? Bed of Bullshit is the only boss that breaks the very foundation of this game : that you have to do the entirety of a fight again if you die and learn how to handle it better.
Bed of Chaos doesn't reset if you die. Every part of it you've destroyed stays destroyed. They pretty much admitted they designed something stupid and didn't have time to replace it with a new encounter (that boss is in the most rushed area of the game with supreme trash like open space filled with dragon butts) so they made it so you could "cheat" the fight in a way you normally can't.

Dark Souls isn't very good post anor londo anyway. Arguably it is barely good at anor londo, O&S are a great fight, but the level design of anor londo itself isn't very good, it's visually stunning but it's lots of empty spaces with very half assed encounter design. We all remember that moment with the greatbow archer because it's the only moment anything really happens there. If you compare Anor Londo to what immediately precedes it, ie Sen's Fortress, it's a piece of garbage.

I agree with nearly all of this. Anor Londo is indeed the beginning of the drop in quality (though I think New Londo Ruins and the Duke's Archives are great endgame levels with just a few glaring flaws). I would further note that the half-finished dragon asses in Lost Izalith don't respawn either, indicating that their challenge may also have been seen as unworthy (though I hesitate with that conclusion as non-respawning enemies are used effectively elsewhere with Black Knights and toxic blowdart snipers in Blighttown).

However, I don't think we should necessarily take the developer's opinions on their own game as gospel. After all, Gabe Newell has characterized Half-Life's Xen as one big regret, which is a shame because Xen is awesome (fight me, losers).

 

[Multidirectional]

However, I don't think we should necessarily take the developer's opinions on their own game as gospel. After all, Gabe Newell has characterized Half-Life's Xen as one big regret, which is a shame because Xen is awesome (fight me, losers).

I only found out that Xen sucks when I started reading about games on internet.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I don't think Xen sucks, but I do think the game peaks around Surface Tension/Apprehension/Forget About Freeman. What follows is not of quite the same quality.

On topic, yeah I've never understood the love for Anor Londo. Castle is the best part imo, and it's pretty small. I also think Painted World is pretty decent. Not Blighttown or Sen's level of quality but certainly better Lost Izalith.

 

[Elwro]

I was playing blindly the first time I got to AL and I still remember the feeling of enlightenment when it occurred to me what the real challenge was. I was struggling against the gargoyles but some fuckers kept firing at me and these arrows were extremely annoying. It was only after a long while (when I learned that you can fight the gargoyles or run past them easily) that I realised that the source of these arrows was the true obstacle. Somehow this made it a very memorable 'reorienting' gaming moment for me.

 

[praetor]

i never really understood the "the game sucks post AL" folk. i mean, the bosses are "meh" at best, yeah, but all the levels except Ruins/Izalith are good (the gimmicky Tomb is anus-puckering even after a few playthroughs, the Archives is fun, and New Londo is the closest they've come to Latria atmosphere-wise, and it's a well designed level with plenty of stuff to do [though they could've put a bonfire somewhere near the 4ks so it's not so annoying] and fun enemies to fight).

btw, is the Darkroot area considered pre- or post- AL? and the Painted World?

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Personally I like Lost Izalith. It's short, you fight some big demons and you can run past everything. If you have the shortcut then it's even easier to get to Bed of Chaos.

 

[The_Mask]

btw, is the Darkroot area considered pre- or post- AL? and the Painted World?

Darkroot outside the doors, meaning Wolf Ring, Holy Ember and Hydra is considered low level, while the Forest Covenant and Sif are not. PWoA is meant to be played before O&S - you're supposed to "stumble" onto the painting as you're exploring. (most don't, and then think the area is too easy)

It is however a train of thought that I would not advise, because if you are "level headed" and head into the Catacombs first, and approach the game in an educated fashion in all of its other ways, then you'll realize that levels matter little. To a Chosen Undead levels don't matter. Or... what is the use of armour if you don't get hit. You choose.

 

[pakoito]

I went from Firelink to ToG's yellow door in my first run right after the Gargoyles. The difficulty spike was...interesting. Took me 20h to get in and out of it, and had that Great Ember with me at the end. Once I upgraded my Zwei with it the game was bearable hahaha

 

[Latelistener]

Spoiler

Bluepoint Games, the developers behind the PS4 remake of Shadow of the Colossus, has announced its new PS5 game, a remake of the beloved FromSoftware PS3 exclusive, Demon's Souls.

https://www.ign.com/articles/ps5-demons-souls-remake