From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

[DragoFireheart]

wow.. holy shit, just wow. thank you for proving there are bigger idiots around than even gouda and meanwhileinpotatoland, i guess. not even on gamefags and 4chan you can see such exquisite display of human stupidity. i guess Einstein was right...

Quit projecting you fucking dipshit. You are literally complaining that a game mechanic is broken because "HACKERS"! Well no shit moron, hackers break games.

 

[LivingOne]

So,since within a few days I'll finally play it I wanted to ask this:in wich areas should I use bonfire ascetics?

I wanted,first of all,to upgrade those bosses that would get good/p.good/whatevs this way.Basically the higher the quality jump,the better.

Secondarily I wanted to know the same but about areas more in general.

Just the areas' names in the order you think I'll get the better experience,no spoilers plz

 

[DragoFireheart]

So,since within a few days I'll finally play it I wanted to ask this:in wich areas should I use bonfire ascetics?

I wanted,first of all,to upgrade those bosses that would get good/p.good/whatevs this way.Basically the higher the quality jump,the better.

Secondarily I wanted to know the same but about areas more in general.

Just the areas' names in the order you think I'll get the better experience,no spoilers plz

Dragon Aerie.

More bosses are more interesting in NG+.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I think this is a fine starting point, because in the end, that's all I really want from the DS community: to stop crucifying their opposition and actually identify and understand the tangible faults of the game.

I was never crucifying anyone, be it those giving it praise or criticism. All I was asking for is there reasons and then I'll decide for myself whether I agree with them or not. I knew the game was over hyped but that didn't change my opinion of it. I actually think more highly of it because I know it was a new team trying to do their best. I also don't remember ever pretending the Souls games were perfect, but considering how utterly shitty most modern day games are I don't blame anyone for making that mistake. Excuse any of us fans for being too excited since we quite literally have no other games to get excited about.

/no sarcasm/

 

[LivingOne]

I thought I'd get more ascetics than that though.I did read somewhere you can farm them for example.Assuming I'll farm for a few(though as soon as it becomes boring,I'll immediatly stop so I'll likely won't get many that way.Or none at all if they are 'titanite slab from darkwraiths' rare.)Aren't there other ways to get them in the game?If yes other areas worth asceting?Also I read about the throne watcher/defender being a not fully realized attempt at another O&S fight,is their area(whatever that is) worth upgrading?
Oh,and one last thing:any more bosses that get thoughter with NPCs summons like 4 kings on NG+(if so works only on asceted area or regular one?)?

Still area names only,plox

 

[praetor]

the Aerie is only "worth" asceticing for farming twinklies/petrified boners, and it gets really annoying and tedious quite quickly (the regular enemies there get over well 10k HP in a couple of ascetics, and crystal lizards also get stronger so they get exponentially more tedious to get). there's no area worth asceticing for tougher bosses unless you're doing it for the rewards 'cause bosses only get tougher in other ways than +HP/damage in proper NG+, not with ascetics (although the areas do get the black phantoms etc). and you'll get ~30 ascetics in a regular playthrough if you buy all of them (they're ~7,5k a piece)

 

[80Maxwell08]

Well I just beat the king. Still a crap fight.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Well I just beat the king. Still a crap fight.

At least the fight is optional. Both King Vendrick and Ancient Dragon are shit fights.

 

[80Maxwell08]

Well I just beat the king. Still a crap fight.

At least the fight is optional. Both King Vendrick and Ancient Dragon are shit fights.

Huh good thing I didn't go for the ancient dragon. I was debating it to make vendrick easier but I decided screw it.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Well I just beat the king. Still a crap fight.

At least the fight is optional. Both King Vendrick and Ancient Dragon are shit fights.

Huh good thing I didn't go for the ancient dragon. I was debating it to make vendrick easier but I decided screw it.

King Vendrick: hump his left left like a horny dog and avoid the swings of ONE HIT KILL.

Ancient Dragon: Hit the leg, run away from fire breath OR DIE IN ONE HIT.

Shit optional bosses are shit. Even the easy final boss was more interesting. Hell, even Old Iron King is more interesting!

 

[UndetectedButthurt]

Whoa whoa whoa way to nitpick 2 letters out of context ignoring everything else. Just STFU and admit that SM is shit and we're all gonna move on.

When you present a good argument for why SM is shit then I'll move on. If your argument has to resort to hackers breaking the game you're fucking retarded, END OF RHINE.

Out of 1000000 gajillion reasons in the posts you fucking quoted AND most of this thread you pick the one fucking "MM" part in a post. ZOMG

 

[DragoFireheart]

Whoa whoa whoa way to nitpick 2 letters out of context ignoring everything else. Just STFU and admit that SM is shit and we're all gonna move on.

When you present a good argument for why SM is shit then I'll move on. If your argument has to resort to hackers breaking the game you're fucking retarded, END OF RHINE.

Out of 1000000 gajillion reasons in the posts you fucking quoted AND most of this thread you pick the one fucking "MM" part in a post. ZOMG

Well give me some other reasons SM is shit and I'l tell you what I think of those reasons. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

platforming in CC and AL was shit, yes. but i personally liked TotG and the only time i fell off ledges was when fighting the dogs near them or when pressing circle once too many at a bonfire (yeah, it happened).

My issue with Tomb of the Giants was that most of it, pre-Leeroy, was really gimmicky. The darkness was the main challenge, as the enemies themselves weren't terribly difficult; even the dog skeletons weren't difficult when you had a light source.

In practice, this meant that the level's difficulty was highly dependent on what items you had collected or what sort of build you were using. The first half (before reaching Patches) was pitifully easy if you had Cast Light, a Sunlight Maggot, or were lucky enough to grab a Skull Lantern from the Catacomb Necromancers (I never was, through ~8 characters, many of whom were rocking the Covetous Gold ring on their way through the catacombs). Without those, you were left fumbling around in the dark, trying to avoid a bunch of deadly falls, or skeleton ambushes designed to knock players off ledges/cliffs. Enormous difficulty gulf.

The second half, post-Patches, is interesting enough with the Skull Lantern, and can be a tense, interesting experience your first time through. Slap on a Sunlight Maggot or use Cast Light and most of the challenge, once again, evaporates. The real problem comes in subsequent playthroughs, when the darkness is nothing but an annoying impediment. Players already know what's coming up, and there's not a lot of tension or surprise. Avoiding lantern/maggot/light use doesn't really help either, because unlike restricted weapon/spell/level runs it doesn't actually promote interesting gameplay.

And the third half was one of DkS1's all-too-common flirtations with the idea that combat on narrow ledges make for interesting level design.

Decent area, but definitely flawed. My roundabout point being, most of DkS1 areas wouldn't look so good if subjected to the same level of scrutiny that many fans are putting DkS2 against.

a pity there's nothing like it in DaS2. hell, they could've (should?) made a completely optional side-area be like Sen's but more labyrinthine, with sparse or easy enemies and super brutal traps that would've made the secret traps in Blade of Darkness look like a children's playground (sounds cool in concept, feeling like indiana jones and all, but i suspect the implementation would've been rather poor)

i don't think the urns in EP were that cool (they're so close to enemies 9 times out of 10 they'll poison themselves as soon as they see you without any "play" from the player). the traps in IK are cool vs invaders, but vs enemies they're really friggin boring since the switches are in your face and enemies just stand there, there's really no "playing" (other than the random chance of luring that first archer onto the platform with 2 bowsers).

I didn't really like the philosophy of traps in DkS1. Non-telegraphed, relatively non-interactable, and extremely deadly felt like a cheap combination. Things like the Hellkite Dragon bridge, the exploding barrel giant in Sens, and the first Seath encounter were pretty much bullshit that existed solely to kill/punish players not using guides.

DkS2 traps are a lot more obvious, and/or a lot less deadly, but I feel that's for the better. There's simply not enough mechanics in Souls games to make dealing with traps all that much fun. Indiana Jones can climb, jump, use his whip, and all sorts of other things to escape traps. In the Souls games, deadly traps are basically a matter of knowledge and not much more.

Deadly traps are good, but only if the game mechanics can really work with them.

and yeah, the physics seem to be improved. too bad the hitboxes got much worse

Honestly, I don't think that hitboxes are that much worse than DkS1. No disputing that DkS2 has a lot more "cheap" hits, but I don't believe worse hitboxes are the main culprit. The reduction of i-frames in dodge animations and the re-balancing of blocking mechanics would probably explain most of the additional "cheapness". DkS1 had some pretty shoddy hitboxes, it's just that players never really noticed them as medium shields could tank everything and fast-roll cloaked them in i-frames. Remove both of those elements and things like AoEs, backswings, and whatnot start to tag players a lot more often.

The ridiculous tracking on some enemy attacks is more of an issue. Certain spear users become damn near impossible to dodge if multiple foes stack their attacks. Yeah, just-dodging is tech and whatnot, but that's not a technique that's terribly intuitive to most players.

and you cannot mention "mechanically uninspired" without mentioning shit like Black Gulch or Amanda shrine or Dark chasm (nothing in DaS1 comes even close to the Chasm's "forcing the player to fight on narrow walkways vs HP sponges". ok, maybe the infamous archers )

Black Gulch and Amana actually had some interesting stuff going on.

Black Gulch had the oil pools that could be lit aflame to flush out enemies and deal damage to foes that stepped on the burning oil. A couple of secrets are well-hidden, and both reward the player with decent content (continuance of an NPC-questline, a rumble with two powerful enemies for a valuable key). And the statues spitting poison, while difficult to deal with, can actually be negotiated in a bunch of ways. They can be methodically taken out by an observant player who doesn't cross into their lines of fire. Throwables, heavy projectiles, and spells can take them out from a distance. And if all else fails, one can simply haul ass through the level with smart running and well-timed dodges. Mistakes against the statues are easy enough to patch up, in most cases, and the level is mercifully brief.

Amana drags on a bit, and I can't say I like the giant durability-destroyer bug, but there's definitely some solid design there. Post-patch, the tracking and aggression range of the Archdrake Mages has been greatly reduced, making melee much more viable. And the Milfanito's song not only illuminates the locations of lurking undead, but also reduces their aggression greatly, which is a nifty mashup of lore and mechanics. The patch really helped this area.

Both Amana and Black Gulch actually have neat things going on...more than can be said of places like Anor Londo, Undead Parish, or other places carried mostly on the back of the solid enemy design.

Dark Chasm is more of a small arena type of area meant for fighting tough-as-nails NPCs, along with crazy Abyss Spirit melees in multiplayer as a potential side dish. Yeah, the placement of the Haveld00d is incredibly poor, but the rest of the Chasms don't employ any sort of design that bad, and it's an isolated occurrence in DkS2 compared to the

but those seem pretty rare, and it seems more a matter of getting accustomed to the new movement/controls. with my first char i managed to get a backstab once in a new moon in the starting areas (moronic hitboxes that hit diagonally behind certainly didn't help), but now on my third one i backstab almost everyone backstabbable with ease almost like DaS1. they turn fast, but after every combo they stand there like statues for something like 5 seconds. and the biggest problem in DaS1 was the enormous backstab hitbox, that shit was just unreal (and should've been a relatively easy fix that i have no idea why was never implemented, and that crushes my hopes they'll ever fix the insane amount of idiotic hitboxes in DaS2 )

Yeah, veterans and good players won't have too much trouble backstabbing a lot of foe once they become acquainted with them, but DkS2 enemies at least make you try a bit more than circle-strafing behind them.

Then again, I've soured on the backstab mechanic as my times with the Souls games has increased. Really wish they would do away with it entirely. No real way to balance it out and it only makes PvE and PvP worse in the current state. An attack with little cost (both in terms of stamina and animation vulnerability) that does immense damage and places the enemy at a distinct disadvantage afterwards. Oh, and it isn't terribly hard to set up. Bah-roken.

OIK i hate with a passion because of all the wonky hitboxes that make punishing the firespit in melee more trouble than it's worth, the wall-piercing "game over" laser, the shitty platform with that hole, and the incredibly lame visual design. it's functionally not that different to the Moonlight Butterfly now that you mention it. you have to wait for both of them to "land" on a limited-movement platform while you dodge their attacks. and both are boring shit (but SK is even more shit)

The difference is that most of OIK's moves are eminently punishable in melee, whereas the Butterfly could not be hit when it was spamming magic for three or so minutes in the air. OIK is a relatively "late" boss whereas the Butterfly will often be the 3rd or 4th boss the player faces; players can be expected to be "ready" for something like OIK, but not so much for the Butterfly.

i was a bit too harsh on some of those, but the gimmicky parts on those is, just like in DeS (in DaS2 there's really too much of DeS's crappiest design choices), a "cool first time only" deal.

Not nearly on the same level as DeS of DkS1 in which the gimmicks were practically the entirety of the fight. For Dark Souls examples, think Priscilla, Gwyndolin, and Ceaseless Discharge, all of whom barely put up much of a fight beyond the gimmick. Once you learn how to "see" Priscilla, smashing her into the ground is terribly easy (tailcut notwithstanding). Gwyndolin is nothing once you learn to zig-zag between the pillars in the hallway to get in close. And the Ceaseless Discharge is either running backwards and letting it kill itself (provided you "trigger" it by stepping near the Izalith Sister's set) or looping the tentacle slam for 5 minutes.

DkS2 fights with gimmicks still have actual boss fights behind them. Flexile Sentry has a relatively large moveset to attack the player with, Mytha still puts up a fight against the player even if you solve the area's "puzzle",

for the record, i'm not saying DaS1 bosses on average were any better. just pointing out that, imho, DaS2 isn't all that much, if at all, of an improvement over the predecessor (at least when it comes to bosses)

From a design standpoint, they really are a huge improvement.

Early bosses actually test playing fundamentals as opposed to being crude "gear-checks" a la DkS1. Things like Belfry Gargoyles, Moonlight Butterfly, and Capra Demon are nightmares for under-geared newbies and jokes to ones that have the correct tools/build. Needless to say, they're boring pushovers for veterans.

And while Dark Souls 1 had some excellent boss fights, there were also a lot of lackluster scrums. DkS2 is far more solid across the board with only one non-optional boss being total crap (Giant Lord), and two trash optional fights with little to no rewards attached. I don't think any DkS2 fights compare to Gwyn or Artorias, but there are a lot of "good" battles.

The biggest issue is many bosses will be too easy for veterans, as they have a strong grip on the mechanics and the sequel doesn't radically depart from the fundamentals. A boss that's supposed to teach new players about how to roll/maneuver and to pay attention to surroundings (Dragonrider) will end up being mostly a joke to a DkS1 veteran who braved SL1 runs or whatnot. I'm not really certain what the devs could have reasonably done to avoid this problem. They couldn't design the majority of the game to cater to the hardcore enthusiasts without alienating newbies. Even designing anything for the hardcore is pretty difficult, as the Souls games don't exactly have a terribly high skill-ceiling, owing to the much more "grounded", simulationist design. It's not Ninja Gaiden, DMC, or, more pertinently, Dragon's Dogma.

hey, i also said most/all of it could be easily fixed in patches, and it had the potential to be the best PvP in the series, and they're already slowly doing it. and with the amount of hate SM gets, i'd be surprised if they don't do something about it (and if they don't, i wouldn't be surprised if this had the shortest lived PvP scene).

I dunno...I'm worried about SM. Apparently a lot of the Japanese crowd, that isn't into PvP, loves grinding everything up to max and Soul Memory basically allows for ~838 builds to still see action. I would assume catering to this player psychographic explains some of the absurd drop rates as well (Shadow/Catarina/Monastery sets, Black Witch Domino Mask, etc). They may actually stick with SM. Hope not, but this is FromSoft, so one never knows.

and i think DaS1 PvP would've been a looot better

Those are all good suggestions, but the problem is that other metagame-centralizing things would have taken their place. After playing DkS2 PvP, I really think the lack of strong (easy to use) counters to powerful techniques was a big flaw in DeS and DkS1 PvP. Things like Rebel's Greatshield, Gower's Ring, and whatnot allow the metagame to self-regulate, to organically push out cheap, spammy, noob-killing strategies without the need for dev-intervention. I'd really like to see more ways to interact with opposing strategies. Things like Dispel Urns to punish pre-buffers, defense-rings (for both elemental damage and status effects) given a serious buff, and whatnot to allow players to equip themselves to shore up weaknesses against builds/strategies they are weak against.

[that's the biggest problem of DaS1's BS-relying game]

The biggest problem was that somewhere north of 70% of actions were punishable by a roll-BS, an easy/safe/powerful action available to every build, which completely removed them from any sort of PvP viability. It completely warped the metagame. Add in the fact that chain-BSing was "a thing" and that no equivalents to ukemi/teching or reversals existed and...well, really warped meta.

but, the biggest enemy of Souls PvP will always stay: From's abysmal netcode. when will they hire someone who knows at least how to code at least basic "Hello world" shit?

I think zomg joked about how Japanese developers don't put any thought into netcode because they aren't checking their low-latency privilege. Like many jokes, there seems to be a kernel of truth; I don't have too much of an issue with online play, but I'm lucky enough to benefit from dat STEM-school town fiber optics. Can't imagine how awful it must be for folks in HUEHUEland or the Potatozone and it seems like From doesn't give two shits about them.

Or they are just that bad at matchmaking and netcode. Wouldn't be the first time a great game they made got sunk by these issues (Chromehounds immediately springs to mind).

 

[Jaedar]

Skull Lantern always drops from the last necromancer in PC version.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Well give me some other reasons SM is shit and I'l tell you what I think of those reasons. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

It's shit for a few reasons.

-It's a terrible correlate for matchmaking fitness because it doesn't account for souls lost, only souls acquired. That means really bad players will be matched up with folks far beyond their skill level. It also doesn't take into account what you've spent souls on. Spending souls on experimenting with different weapons/items will put players in the same bracket as those playing much more soul-efficiently, funneling resources solely into their leveling and main equipment.

And while SM is designed to punish low-level griefing/mismatches, it visits that same fate upon pretty much anyone else. Huge mismatches occur all too frequently in many SM brackets, with higher ones chock full of 838 Havel Hexers, which makes PvP into a monotonous chore after awhile. Characters now have a "shelf-life".

-It is beyond the player's control. Matchmaking based on Soul Level can be completely controlled by the player with a little bit of reading online. Soul Memory matchmaking isn't really in the payer's control...you can't deny soul acquisitions.

-Griefers can actually ruin player's games quite easily. The worst a hacker/save-editor/muler could typically do is kill your character. Annoying, but no big deal. Here, an 838 with no SM can suicide an invadee's world and boost their SM by around 650K, effectively locking them out of most co-op until Drangleic Castle and bumping them into PvP brackets they are certainly not ready for.

 

[Gozma]

Have any message board game designers thought of a SM-like system that would do the good bit (anti-twink) without the downsides?

 

[toro]

one more day and this abomination will land on the PC

 

[Serious_Business]

one more day and this abomination will land on the PC

FUCK YOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

[DragoFireheart]

-It's a terrible correlate for matchmaking fitness because it doesn't account for souls lost, only souls acquired. That means really bad players will be matched up with folks far beyond their skill level. It also doesn't take into account what you've spent souls on. Spending souls on experimenting with different weapons/items will put players in the same bracket as those playing much more soul-efficiently, funneling resources solely into their leveling and main equipment.

And while SM is designed to punish low-level griefing/mismatches, it visits that same fate upon pretty much anyone else. Huge mismatches occur all too frequently in many SM brackets, with higher ones chock full of 838 Havel Hexers, which makes PvP into a monotonous chore after awhile. Characters now have a "shelf-life".

I don't agree with the "skill" argument as that is independent of Soul Memory. I can understand the level 838 Havels being frustrating but this happens well past the point where most characters are developed.

-It is beyond the player's control. Matchmaking based on Soul Level can be completely controlled by the player with a little bit of reading online. Soul Memory matchmaking isn't really in the payer's control...you can't deny soul acquisitions.

It's a cost and benefit. Sure, they can't control it, but as you play you'll continue to find more and more people to match up with. However, this does make Fight Clubs and organized PvP much more difficult so on that point I will agree with you. +1

-Griefers can actually ruin player's games quite easily. The worst a hacker/save-editor/muler could typically do is kill your character. Annoying, but no big deal. Here, an 838 with no SM can suicide an invadee's world and boost their SM by around 650K, effectively locking them out of most co-op until Drangleic Castle and bumping them into PvP brackets they are certainly not ready for.

I know not of a single game mechanic that won't be broken due to hackers. Like I pointed out with praetor it's a poor argument.


EDIT:

The most simple solution I heard was to simply remove SM for NG+. Another solution would be to simply remove the SM requirement for Red Soapsigns and Dragone Eye signs in NG+ and make it level based. Or better yet, do that only for the Dragon Covenant so it becomes the official Fight Club convenant. The new From team should recognize that some people want to PvP as specific level ranges. I want to believe that From anticipated such issues and it's why they have the calibration system. Time will tell...

 

[Kanedias]

Skull Lantern always drops from the last necromancer in PC version.

This was added in one patch, I think it was the one that introduced the DLC to consoles. They made it so all enemies that stop respawning drop their items when you kill the last one. Items like the Symbol of Avarice used to be harder to get...

This change is interesting now that I think about it, because of how Dark Souls 2 rare items work (with non respawning, hard to farm black phantoms). I wonder if they'll ever patch this like they did in the first game or not (since this time we have ascetics available)

 

[DragoFireheart]

This change is interesting now that I think about it, because of how Dark Souls 2 rare items work (with non respawning, hard to farm black phantoms). I wonder if they'll ever patch this like they did in the first game or not (since this time we have ascetics available)

Calibrations will fix this.

 

[Kanedias]

Illusorywall revealed the results of his Soul Memory tests, these are the SM ranges.

 

[Surf Solar]

I know its a stupid question, but is iz possible to remove the dragonhead off of me?

 

[Utgard-Loki]

IT'S THE 24th NOW! LET ME PLAY THE GAME! LET ME PLAY THE GAME! NO! LET ME PLAY! I'LL KILL YOU! I'LL KILL YOU! IT'S NOT FAIR

 

[Surf Solar]

Nevermind! :D Does anyone want to do some sparring with me? I want to get better