From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

[Cat Headed Eagle]

I do believe stuff being interconnected stems too much from the Undead Parish lift and the impression it had on players. It's so powerful it makes people forget that the game shits the bed after O&S. If anything, I feel like DS2's second half is better than DS1's by a lot. And I think it's been said already, but there's more stuff in common between DeS and DS2/3. In many ways DS1 feels like the odd one out.

ADP is not completely worthless from a design perspective. I think there was an initial push to make away with the class system since it only determines your starting gear, and make every character to be a "commando" of sorts. There were many ideas about builds and how you could twist and turn things to make a character that is more to your liking. The mere variety of NPCs offering things to you kinda indicates this.

 

[Silverfish]

I think you're imagining things

No, he's right, it's just that the movement issues aren't as common as the videos he's referencing imply.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

And it's not just drangleic castle, pretty much the whole game is weird like that.

Can I ask why this is a problem? I know people rant about the interconnected world in DaS1 and while it's impressive it doesn't add much to the areas as locations. The lift back to Firelink is cool but it doesn't make the Burg or Shrine any more interesting (ignoring the secret area the lift is needed to access). One thing I like about DaS2 is it feels very forgetful and foggy. Majula feels dream like, the wooded area with the chariot boss feels off and almost unreal. The castle doesn't feel right when you approach it and doesn't feel quite real either.

I understand why you enjoy interconnected and 'realism' in your fantasy word but I also appreciate having a game that feels foggy and like dementia is happening to your character. You're losing your grip on yourself and making the game feel dream like is a good way to line up the character's state of mind and the player. I never noticed the lift up to the volcano made no sense because I didn't care how interconnected the world was. I never looked up from blight town and made soy faces because you could see Fire link. I was more interested in the area I was in and exploring the cool fire castle in front of me and figuring out how to control knight aggro. For me the interconnected world was gameplay short cuts and added nothing else to the experience. I'd rather have a disjointed but interesting world, where some things make no sense but set the mood/play well than Anor Londo having empty rooms with a silver knight standing in it to aggro as you open the door. Dark souls was never realistic to the degree youtubers make it out to be. Dragon killing knights don't spend their entire lives standing on a ledge waiting to snipe people running up the roof top and they don't go back to starting positions if you break aggro. Muh realism ends the moment an enemy's sword phases through a wall or the leashing breaks and they turn around and walk off mid fight.

 

[cvv]

Bro, stop. Nathir has a point in that the series world design was more grounded in DeS and DS1 and became less so in DS2 and 3.

Denying that only paints you as a fanboy.

Yeah but blowing that difference out of proportions paints you as a hator.

Also there's a bigger shift from grounded/medieval to dreamlike in DeS > DS1 than from both to DS2.

 

[gabel]

Dark Souls PtDE is peak Fromsoft and will never be surpassed.
It's THE classic of its kind (Souls-like) like Doom was (and still is) for FPSs (Doom-clones).
Doesn't mean there aren't other worthy entries, but it's the pinnacle.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Dark Souls PtDE is peak Fromsoft and will never be surpassed.
It's THE classic of its kind (Souls-like) like Doom was (and still is) for FPSs (Doom-clones).
Doesn't mean there aren't other worthy entries, but it's the pinnacle.

Um excuse me.. Actually that's um.. Demon's souls.

 

[gabel]

Nah, Dark Souls is clearly superior.
And it's also clear that the term Souls-like refers to Dark Souls, not Demon's Souls.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Nah, Dark Souls is clearly superior.
And it's also clear that the term Souls-like refers to Dark Souls, not Demon's Souls.

I like Demon's souls more. It doesn't have half the game being a terrible slog.

Souls-life refers to stamina system, dodge rolling and high damage. It's not specific to any From game and Dark souls is Demon's souls 2.0 so it's still Demon's souls. Band wagoners

 

[gabel]

Eh, whatever, I can live with someone preferring Demon's Souls.
Even if I think of it more like Wolfenstein 3D compared to Doom.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Eh, whatever, I can live with someone preferring Demon's Souls.
Even if I think of it more like Wolfenstein 3D compared to Doom.

Doom to Doom 2. But stuff like world tendency is a cool concept and lost in the transition sadly.

I especially don't like the PvP changes. Having to run through a level and hunt your target is fun to me. Knowing From added obvious combat arenas by the bonfires and there will always be the host and his friends standing in them spoiled it for me. I'd rather someone made a proper PvP soulslike and give those players some where to go.

 

[Nathir]

And it's not just drangleic castle, pretty much the whole game is weird like that.

Can I ask why this is a problem? I know people rant about the interconnected world in DaS1 and while it's impressive it doesn't add much to the areas as locations. The lift back to Firelink is cool but it doesn't make the Burg or Shrine any more interesting (ignoring the secret area the lift is needed to access). One thing I like about DaS2 is it feels very forgetful and foggy. Majula feels dream like, the wooded area with the chariot boss feels off and almost unreal. The castle doesn't feel right when you approach it and doesn't feel quite real either.

I understand why you enjoy interconnected and 'realism' in your fantasy word but I also appreciate having a game that feels foggy and like dementia is happening to your character. You're losing your grip on yourself and making the game feel dream like is a good way to line up the character's state of mind and the player. I never noticed the lift up to the volcano made no sense because I didn't care how interconnected the world was. I never looked up from blight town and made soy faces because you could see Fire link. I was more interested in the area I was in and exploring the cool fire castle in front of me and figuring out how to control knight aggro. For me the interconnected world was gameplay short cuts and added nothing else to the experience. I'd rather have a disjointed but interesting world, where some things make no sense but set the mood/play well than Anor Londo having empty rooms with a silver knight standing in it to aggro as you open the door. Dark souls was never realistic to the degree youtubers make it out to be. Dragon killing knights don't spend their entire lives standing on a ledge waiting to snipe people running up the roof top and they don't go back to starting positions if you break aggro. Muh realism ends the moment an enemy's sword phases through a wall or the leashing breaks and they turn around and walk off mid fight.

Why are you talking about interconnectedness again? Youtubers? Attacks going through walls? What the hell are you even talking about? As I said in my first post, DS2 is dull and tasteless compared to any other game in the series. If you can't see it I can't help you. You can call it dream like and foggy, but the truth is the game just went through development hell.

 

[cvv]

but the truth is the game just went through development hell.

So did Demon's Souls, an even bigger one.

And to a lesser degree DS1 and DS3 too (by Miyazaki's own admission).

DS2 dramatic criticism always seemed bizarrely overblown to me.

People complaining about linearity - which is fair - but then turning around and saying DS3 is their fav.
Complaining about hitboxes when the worst examples of terrible hitboxes are in DS1.
Complaining about "ganking" and "ambushes" and I don't even know what the fuck that's supposed to mean, this shit has been the staple of the series since DeS.
Complaining about a lava castle on top of a poisonous mill...ok that actually is p. retarded but acting as if the gaem litrully unplayable1!!1! because of that is retarded too.
And a slew of the usual suspects like "clunky", "artificial difficulty", "boring" and, the best of all, "bad design".

Just a diarrhea of incoherent nonsense, saying way more about the critics than about the game.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

People complaining about linearity - which is fair - but then turning around and saying DS3 is their fav.

Can I just point out how fucking bad Firelink shrine's design is when you're playing it on the original console? The stair case taking you up to the burg is the same colour as the cliff face, has a tree in front of it and the graphics are quite muddy. You have an obvious door way to your left and a set of stairs sending you to the ghost house. The camera is even facing away from the intended path when you spawn in after the cut scene as well. As much as people like to talk about how many options you have, it's really shitty game design to have multiple paths you shouldn't go down be more obvious than the path you intend new players to take. The ghost town gives you enemies you can't hurt and it's the only obvious path to take if you head down. The catacombs have quite difficult respawning enemies you need to kill strong necromancers to stop fucking you and you can end up trapped down there with 5 estus (firelink didn't used to be kindled). So the game communicates for you to head into 2 mid-late game areas and if you do complete one of them you end up having to run all the way back out again, which is a total ball ache.

I got Dark souls a bit earlier than most people and even as an experienced player I ended up heading towards the catacombs rather than the burg. It took me a couple of hours before I got on the intended-newbie friendly path. If a guy with hundreds of hours in Demon's souls could end up missing the intended path because of shitty level design/visuals then the game has serious flaws right from the get go. I would also question why the first encounter outside of the tutorial is an 8 man gank with fire bombs being thrown at you while hollows turn into the incredible hulk and launch themselves across the narrow cliff face at you. Dark souls 1 has lots of design issues like this, where the developers fuck up basic communication with the player and the fanbase responds "git gud". Dark souls 2's opening gives you just as many options but it makes them significantly more difficult for a new player to end up getting fucked by them. Heide's tower of flame is much more obvious than the forest of fallen giants are but neither are especially difficult and both work as first time areas. This is clearly intentional and trying to fix some of Dark souls issues. The game is not made worse because you can't immediately fall into the rat bros trap and get constantly fucked by invaders looking to trap newbies there. Dark souls should never talk down to the player and baby it's self for them, but there's a balance of tough but fair and Dark souls clearly has issues with this in it's opening act where "tough but fair" is not New Londo.

 

[Silverfish]

I would also question why the first encounter outside of the tutorial is an 8 man gank with fire bombs being thrown at you

They're spaced out far enough that you'd have to go out of your way to aggro all of them at once. Hardly a gank.

"tough but fair" is not New Londo.

Weirdly, it is. The ghosts can't be fought at the start (unless you spend one of the two transient curses you get just before and somehow get lucky enough to get a ghost weapon right out of the gate), but there's no bonfire so you can't trap yourself like you can in the catacombs.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

I would also question why the first encounter outside of the tutorial is an 8 man gank with fire bombs being thrown at you

They're spaced out far enough that you'd have to go out of your way to aggro all of them at once. Hardly a gank.

"tough but fair" is not New Londo.

Weirdly, it is. The ghosts can't be fought at the start (unless you spend one of the two transient curses you get just before and somehow get lucky enough to get a ghost weapon right out of the gate), but there's no bonfire so you can't trap yourself like you can in the catacombs.

You don't need to aggro them all at once for one of them to get aggroed and super man punch you from a range you can't expect.

Depends how you define fair. I don't consider leading people down the wrong path with bad visual design to be fair. The designers are responsible for what they communicate to the player and making door ways take you the wrong way while a brown wall behind a tree being the right path is basically being lied to as soon as you spawn into the world.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

In the first passage of DES 1-1, before the big gate, you get ambushed three times at the very least.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

In the first passage of DES 1-1, before the big gate, you get ambushed three times at the very least.

All those enemies are visible from the front and they come at you in the direction you're heading at the same height. The hollows in Firelink can leap off the cliff at you or throw bombs from off camera. I don't think dreglings have a throwing attack in that part of the game.

 

[Zlaja]

While I like the gameplay of DS2 the most, I still think Demon's Souls is the most special of the bunch. It has an unmatched atmosphere that made the first time experience of playing the game truly special. In a way, playing it for the first time reminded me of the feeling I had when I first played Morrowind. Both games feature a setting that felt only vaguely familiar, and mostly alien and different than usual. I felt a sense of wonder traversing the places in these games that I wish more fantasy games could offer.

 

[Silverfish]

You don't need to aggro them all at once for one of them to get aggroed and super man punch you from a range you can't expect.

Their long range lunge is pretty weak and easily survived even with your class' base vitality. This isn't the DS3 katana man we're talking about here.

I don't consider leading people down the wrong path with bad visual design to be fair.

Now? I totally agree. But back in 2011, before beating your head against a brick wall became a point of pride among Souls fans, it was entirely reasonable to assume "If the player has too much trouble in one direction, he'll try another."

 

[cvv]

Dunno, on my first D1 run I went down to New Londo too but noped the fuck out of there the moment I crossed that wooden walkway. I immediately understood I'm not supposed to be there yet.

Narrow walkways? Risk of drowning at the smallest mistake? Invulnerable enemies rising from the ground?

Yeah, all my 20 years of playing vidya telling me "bruh, this is not a noob area". Can't be more obvious.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Now? I totally agree. But back in 2011, before beating your head against a brick wall became a point of pride among Souls fans, it was entirely reasonable to assume "If the player has too much trouble in one direction, he'll try another."

This is a fair point. Which is why I made it almost to Patches before turning back. New Londo wasn't happening. Catacombs seemed a bit too much but I couldn't see another option and assumed the game was being an asshole until then.

Yeah, all my 20 years of playing vidya telling me "bruh, this is not a noob area". Can't be more obvious.

4-1 seems really difficult for a first timers first non-tutorial level and 5-1 is not too different to New Londo walk way wise. Remember we're coming from Demon's souls and some of the hardest stuff is in the early levels. There wasn't a dark souls formula back then and the tutorial was over so skeleton land was the obvious path with all the loot and huge door ways leading you there.

 

[Silverfish]

Catacombs seemed a bit too much but I couldn't see another option and assumed the game was being an asshole until then.

You're still sharper than I was. I missed the catacombs entirely my first time through and didn't find them until 30 hours later when I was searching everywhere trying to find the last lord soul.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Catacombs seemed a bit too much but I couldn't see another option and assumed the game was being an asshole until then.

You're still sharper than I was. I missed the catacombs entirely my first time through and didn't find them until 30 hours later when I was searching everywhere trying to find the last lord soul.

I wouldn't say that. I'm currently doing a crossbow only run and tried to do early cats.. Do not want.

 

[Silverfish]

That's an interesting proposition actually. What's the overall gameplan?

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Going to the catacomb is also kind of suicide for people who don't know how Souls works. But in the end it's kind of nice how Souls logic often works in a normal crpg kind of logic. Of course you'd need holy damage to kill undead for sure, until you find out killing the necromancers has the same effect. Similarly, it makes sense that ghosts can't be hit normally. I don't think there's like outlandish loops of logic in that regard.