The Dragon Age: Inquisition Thread

[Clockwork Knight]

http://games.on.net/2014/12/dragon-...transgender-character-in-response-to-feedback

 

[J_C]

They're just giving what the people want.
Kotaku praised their representation of Trans-ppl:

https://archive.today/DVXfp

The sad thing is that they do this so they net some good points in the LGBT community. When competent writers write a story, first they make the basic idea, then they develop the story arc, and the characters. If the story needs a lesbian or gay or trans character, great, let them have it. But at Bioware, it goes like this. First breainstorming meeting: OK guys, whatever the story will be, we will need gays and even a trans person. Also, you must be able to fuck everybody.

It is painfully obvious that Bioware is only doing this because it became their shtick. And it makes me sick that people applaud them as progressive and great writers.

 

[Merlkir]

It's a niche that happens to be popular, what's the problem? I bought Origins for my flatmate last week, her first cRPG, and she's finished it in a few days, absolutely loved it. (and yes, she did like characters, companions, romance etc. what you'd call the girly shit, but her favourite area was Orzammar and the Deep Roads, she got into the combat, character stats and all that too. )

If you're annoyed by Bioware's approach, why play the game? Why bother talking about it? Products are made when people want them and Bioware games have a market, nothing wrong with that.

Krem does fuck all for me, but I'm ignoring the entire Iron Bull thing for now, so I don't really care. Schtick, tokenism, both are words that simply mean you don't like the fact there are people who want this and that Bioware listens to the demand. The supposedly "token" character doesn't make the game worse. (the uneven pace and grindy MMO design do) "Resources/time could've been spent on better/more important aspects of the game" is the whining of an armchair designer.

Whoopty fuckin' doo.

 

[J_C]

I
If you're annoyed by Bioware's approach, why play the game? Why bother talking about it? Products are made when people want them and Bioware games have a market, nothing wrong with that.

I'm not annoyed, and I don't play their games. I still don't like it if people hail them as the best writers in the industry because that basicly shits on the really talented writers in the industry.

And I talk and complain about them because ...duh....this is te Codex. Also, it can't be a niche if it is mainstream.

 

[dryan]

Schtick, tokenism, both are words that simply mean you don't like the fact there are people who want this and that Bioware listens to the demand.

Not really, you're missing the point. Tokenism isn't writing a character of a certain demographic, it's instead writing it in a way that's pure pandering, because you have to fill a quota. If you read the Kotaku article, you'll see that Weekes admits that he was going for a character with a more disturbing past, but then it was brought to his attention that it might be "triggering" to some people, so he just sanitized it, demonstrating that he has less commitment to the character he created than to appeasing a specific demanding demographic. If he had any conviction on the "literary" value of what he wrote for that character he would face controversy openly, but instead he decided to go the safe route. That's nothing but condescension.

 

[Drakron]

Also, you must be able to fuck everybody.

Yet Vivienne is not a option ... funny how the only remotely attractive NPC character is not a option.

 

[AW8]

So, this game is now GOTY. I guess it is now a good game.

The big question is, why are Codexers discussing "The Game Awards" as if it had any credibility? Giving thought to some nonsense award show is so out of character, I thought that was exclusive to popamole sites!

Now obviously, Dragon Age: Inquisition is GOTY, journalists all over the world has given it 11/10 and the popamole masses raise it up as the new god of RPG's. That's what I base my GOTY jokes on, not some Dorito-smeared award handed over by Geoff Keighley.

 

[Azarkon]

It's a niche that happens to be popular, what's the problem? I bought Origins for my flatmate last week, her first cRPG, and she's finished it in a few days, absolutely loved it. (and yes, she did like characters, companions, romance etc. what you'd call the girly shit, but her favourite area was Orzammar and the Deep Roads, she got into the combat, character stats and all that too. )

If you're annoyed by Bioware's approach, why play the game? Why bother talking about it? Products are made when people want them and Bioware games have a market, nothing wrong with that.

Krem does fuck all for me, but I'm ignoring the entire Iron Bull thing for now, so I don't really care. Schtick, tokenism, both are words that simply mean you don't like the fact there are people who want this and that Bioware listens to the demand. The supposedly "token" character doesn't make the game worse. (the uneven pace and grindy MMO design do) "Resources/time could've been spent on better/more important aspects of the game" is the whining of an armchair designer.

Whoopty fuckin' doo.

Tokenism is a waste of resources and takes development time away from the main game. The generic quality of the quests and the main plot is one of the primary complaints against DAI. Add one and one together and it's obvious this philosophy of Bioware's contributed to the #decline in a major way.

 

[Turjan]

Now obviously, Dragon Age: Inquisition is GOTY, journalists all over the world has given it 11/10 and the popamole masses raise it up as the new god of RPG's.

Divinity: Original Sin got even better scores from "journalists all over the world". Of course, it didn't reach the console-only journos, so there's that.

 

[Tehdagah]

They're just giving what the people want.
Kotaku praised their representation of Trans-ppl:

https://archive.today/DVXfp

"cis woman"

Nope.

 

[AngryEddy]

I'm just here for the source porn.

 

[Frozen]

I think its some kind of global big developers plan to completely dumbfuck RPG gaming because its too much work to do it proper.
This way they can streamlined it to max and pull out "RPG"s like this every year like COD games without any real effort or change. Paste MMO quests + romance simulator= $$$$$
And because 12 year old morons are still main consumer base you can sell them anything if its flashy and has lots of vybrid colors.
CD Projekt Red is the only one left to sink.

 

[Merlkir]

Schtick, tokenism, both are words that simply mean you don't like the fact there are people who want this and that Bioware listens to the demand.

Not really, you're missing the point. Tokenism isn't writing a character of a certain demographic, it's instead writing it in a way that's pure pandering, because you have to fill a quota. If you read the Kotaku article, you'll see that Weekes admits that he was going for a character with a more disturbing past, but then it was brought to his attention that it might be "triggering" to some people, so he just sanitized it, demonstrating that he has less commitment to the character he created than to appeasing a specific demanding demographic. If he had any conviction on the "literary" value of what he wrote for that character he would face controversy openly, but instead he decided to go the safe route. That's nothing but condescension.

Let's face it, Bioware panders. There are heaps of ego stroking. That's fine as long it's not pandering to someone specific? Unfair?

I read the article. I do think removing conflict and sanitizing your story can be detrimental. On the other hand, I understand that seeing a single character you can identify with and see them struggle in the same or similar way you have could be quite disheartening. Or empowering, if done right, I suppose. He decided to play it safe, they run a business after all. Either way, we're not the people this is aimed at and there's a ton of other content that's aimed at us, the general mass of non-trans people. I can live with that.

 

[Viata]

They're just giving what the people want.
Kotaku praised their representation of Trans-ppl:

https://archive.today/DVXfp

It's kinda funny to know this game will be remembered for its representation of poc/trans/whatever/ characters, not because of things related to video games.

 

[RK47]

 

[dryan]

Either way, we're not the people this is aimed at and there's a ton of other content that's aimed at us, the general mass of non-trans people. I can live with that.

Sorry for being confrontational here, but that's exactly the problem, and what makes it pathetic retarded pandering. A well written trans character, much like any other, would be aimed at any person. I don't need to be a woman in order to empathize and identify with a female character, just like I don't need to be black in order to empathize and identify with a black character, just like I don't need to be trans to empathize and identify with a trans character, and so on and so forth. A character that has more than one single dimension will "earn" my empathy on the basis of being human like myself, or, in the case of fantastical creatures or robots, on the basis of their human-like qualities. The fact that the character is so shamelessly empty of any traits other than their ethnicity/orientation/gender is precisely what makes it a failure. To be honest, a minority/unorthodox character would have great potential of making an impact on folks that aren't part of their demographic, if a good writer bothered with drawing their attention with interesting qualities and fascinating background, and then making those folks see things from the minority's perspective for a change. But that would require making those minority characters resemble real flawed human beings, which is taboo, because minority characters have to be awesome role models, otherwise their advocacy groups get outraged. So instead Bioware goes: "Hey, here's a trans character, for trans people like you! S/he is awesome and good. Please don't hate us".

 

[RPGMaster]

 

[Merlkir]

Either way, we're not the people this is aimed at and there's a ton of other content that's aimed at us, the general mass of non-trans people. I can live with that.

Sorry for being confrontational here, but that's exactly the problem, and what makes it pathetic retarded pandering. A well written trans character, much like any other, would be aimed at any person. I don't need to be a woman in order to empathize and identify with a female character, just like I don't need to be black in order to empathize and identify with a black character, just like I don't need to be trans to empathize and identify with a trans character, and so on and so forth. A character that has more than one single dimension will "earn" my empathy on the basis of being human like myself, or, in the case of fantastical creatures or robots, on the basis of their human-like qualities. The fact that the character is so shamelessly empty of any traits other than their ethnicity/orientation/gender is precisely what makes it a failure. To be honest, a minority/unorthodox character would have great potential of making an impact on folks that aren't part of their demographic, if a good writer bothered with drawing their attention with interesting qualities and fascinating background, and then making those folks see things from the minority's perspective for a change. But that would require making those minority characters resemble real flawed human beings, which is taboo, because minority characters have to be awesome role models, otherwise their advocacy groups get outraged. So instead Bioware goes: "Hey, here's a trans character, for trans people like you! S/he is awesome and good. Please don't hate us".

I see it as baby steps. There are two thoughts I've heard on this topic and I don't think either is always exclusively valid by default:
1) Characters have to be deep and therefore engaging to everyone, otherwise it's pandering.
2) Characters are allowed to just be. Minority people don't need to be pushed into the spotlight, they're fine in the background too.
Bioware makes compromises, obviously. They already get flak for too many "faggits" among the companions. And hey, Dorian's pretty cool, but something tells me they'd get much more hate if he was trans.

The writer obviously sees the lieutenant as a big deal. Dunno, I think it kind of works. In a passive way, it's just a statement of existence. In Rogue Legacy, your character receives semi-random traits, one of which is sexual orientation. It doesn't do anything, but if you're gay, statues in the castle reflect your preferred sex. When RL came out, "progressive" writers both praised and condemned this, both as a cool statement and an attempt at othering. Different points of view, you can't please everyone...

I don't know if this guy's cool, or flawless. I met him in the game just once and he was just another NPC who delivered a letter. I don't expect any depth from such NPCs. And if someone enjoys the fact he's trans? I can't make myself see that as a bad thing.

 

[Sòren]

To be honest, a minority/unorthodox character would have great potential of making an impact on folks that aren't part of their demographic, if a good writer bothered with drawing their attention with interesting qualities and fascinating background, and then making those folks see things from the minority's perspective for a change.

i'd like to see a neanderthal character in an rpg someday

 

[Merlkir]

To be honest, a minority/unorthodox character would have great potential of making an impact on folks that aren't part of their demographic, if a good writer bothered with drawing their attention with interesting qualities and fascinating background, and then making those folks see things from the minority's perspective for a change.

i'd like to see a neanderthal character in an rpg someday

Not an RPG, but there was one in Original War.

 

[Azarkon]

Schtick, tokenism, both are words that simply mean you don't like the fact there are people who want this and that Bioware listens to the demand.

Not really, you're missing the point. Tokenism isn't writing a character of a certain demographic, it's instead writing it in a way that's pure pandering, because you have to fill a quota. If you read the Kotaku article, you'll see that Weekes admits that he was going for a character with a more disturbing past, but then it was brought to his attention that it might be "triggering" to some people, so he just sanitized it, demonstrating that he has less commitment to the character he created than to appeasing a specific demanding demographic. If he had any conviction on the "literary" value of what he wrote for that character he would face controversy openly, but instead he decided to go the safe route. That's nothing but condescension.

Let's face it, Bioware panders. There are heaps of ego stroking. That's fine as long it's not pandering to someone specific? Unfair?

I read the article. I do think removing conflict and sanitizing your story can be detrimental. On the other hand, I understand that seeing a single character you can identify with and see them struggle in the same or similar way you have could be quite disheartening. Or empowering, if done right, I suppose. He decided to play it safe, they run a business after all. Either way, we're not the people this is aimed at and there's a ton of other content that's aimed at us, the general mass of non-trans people. I can live with that.

Pandering sucks. Tokenism also sucks. How difficult is that to understand? Nobody's saying 'it's fine as long as it's pandering to the general public instead of a specific group.' Besides, tokenism isn't equivalent to pandering to begin with. Just as tokenism at a work place is hiring that one black dude so that your company gets to say that it's 'diverse,' tokenism in a video game is creating that one transsexual minor character so that your company gets to say that it's 'inclusive.' Bioware had no intention of making transsexualism a theme of DAI, and they had no intention of developing a poignant story around Krem. They just threw Krem in so that they get to score media attention ala from SJWs @ Kotaku, The Mary Sue, etc.

In short, they traded development time on the game for

:incloosive:

I am especially fixated on this issue because it combines all that's wrong with Bioware with all that's wrong with gaming journalism - developers getting credit for banal shit just because it makes for a nice headline.

I didn't even remember Krem till said headlines brought it up, and thinking back, all I remember is him/her being an info dump for IB.

 

[DalekFlay]

Well I'm at the end of this piece of shit, final mission (labeled as such) is on the map. I would write a long summary post of my thoughts but I think everything has been dutifully covered by myself and others in this thread. MMO design through and through, action game controls, moderately solid main quest and pretties.

Infinitron, I assume someone else is writing a review of this?

 

[set]

Pandering is pandering. It's shitty when you have a bald-faced spesh mareen just to appeal to 13 year olds on a CoD binge and it's still just as shitty when you do it to appease * people.

 

[RK47]

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Their emphasis on "The game" is hilarious, I cringe every time I hear it. Pretty sure they have a couple of quotes taken directly from GoT.(With minor synonym swaps of course.)
"Anyone who's into 'Game of Thrones' or Lord of the Rings' will adore this sword and sorcery epic."
Indeed...