The Eye of the Beholder Thread

[KeighnMcDeath]

He be wanting that 13 hp a level.

 

[Nikanuur]

I believe there was some communication about this here, but it was a long time ago. I took the liberty to repeat that the strongest weapon in both the EoB I and EoB II
is arguably the Severious Sword (+5) found somewhere mid-game in EoB I. Theoretically, the strongest weapon is the Chieftain's Polearm +5. You can find it around Kenku's. However, the polearm is a 2-handed weapon and therefore slower, thus giving less DPS than the said long sword. The strongest weapon in EoB II (Talon) is only +4 (it also takes a large part of the game to acquire it). If you want to have a +5 weapon at all, you need to transfer the saves from EoB.

 

[vol.2]

I believe there was some communication about this here, but it was a long time ago. I took the liberty to repeat that the strongest weapon in both the EoB I and EoB II
is arguably the Severious Sword (+5) found somewhere mid-game in EoB I. Theoretically, the strongest weapon is the Chieftain's Polearm +5. You can find it around Kenku's. However, the polearm is a 2-handed weapon and therefore slower, thus giving less DPS than the said long sword. The strongest weapon in EoB II (Talon) is only +4 (it also takes a large part of the game to acquire it). If you want to have a +5 weapon at all, you need to transfer the saves from EoB.

Yes. The weapons in EOB2 suck and the two best weapons in the first game are still the best in 2 and 3. In EOB 3, the +5 polearm becomes important because you can use it to attack from the second row. Also, dual wielding is always better than one weapon because you'll do a lot more damage, so the best weapon after EOB 1 is the +3 shortsword in EOB2 and then the +4 shortsword in EOB 3, but that doesn't come until the end of the game.

 

[BruceVC]

I have now played the whole EOB series and EOB1 was my preferred game because it captures the overall classic dungeon explorer experience in the best way

Dungeon Hack is pretty good, the Gold Box one. It uses the EotB engine, but it's single character. I think you'll quickly notice though, that cleric is by far the best choice for class.

I decided to play Dungeon Hack before I move onto another genre

Its good fun and I like whole unique dungeons design

I had to think carefully about my class because its single character so I decided to be a half-elf Fighter\Cleric

It seemed to provide the best healing and combat options. Im only on level 1 but Im really enjoying the puzzles and mechanics which are very similar to EOB

 

[Nikanuur]

I have now played the whole EOB series and EOB1 was my preferred game because it captures the overall classic dungeon explorer experience in the best way

Dungeon Hack is pretty good, the Gold Box one. It uses the EotB engine, but it's single character. I think you'll quickly notice though, that cleric is by far the best choice for class.

I decided to play Dungeon Hack before I move onto another genre

Its good fun and I like whole unique dungeons design

I had to think carefully about my class because its single character so I decided to be a half-elf Fighter\Cleric

It seemed to provide the best healing and combat options. Im only on level 1 but Im really enjoying the puzzles and mechanics which are very similar to EOB

The first 'procedurally generated dungeons' game, I believe. Good slaying!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The first 'procedurally generated dungeons' game, I believe. Good slaying!

Rogue has been around since the 1980s. There were gobs and gobs of rogue-likes by the time Dungeon Hack was developed, including Nethack, which I'm pretty sure it where Dungeon Hack got it's name.

 

[Don Peste]

 

[BruceVC]

k

Great post , I know this is not the Wizardry thread but on your tweet I found this link about the remake of the Wizardry game, Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord ( just use English translator )

https://jp.ign.com/wizardry-proving...iwizardry-proving-grounds-of-the-mad-overlord

Fascinating read and interview about the original game and the remake from the developers. I am definitely going to be playing this game

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

The sewers of Waterdeep still haven't had justice done to then in game. EOB is fine for a short sewer excursion. No rats! Well except for the
Rapid
Access
Teleportation (of was it just Teleport?)
System

 

[Desiderius]

Ah, so that's why I was surprised when there was a level four.

The Map that came with the game! Had totally fogotten about that.

 

[Glop_dweller]

Anyone have thoughts on EOB vs. Legend of Grimrock?

Grimrock is admittedly derived from Dungeonmaster and EOB.

 

[vol.2]

So, I'm still unsure if the Dragon Skin armor counts as Studded Leather or lighter in EOB. (as far as a Ranger is concerned)

Unkillable Cat says it becomes "Leather Armor +4" in EOB3 when you import, so that sort of seems like it registers as leather maybe? Does anyone know for sure?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I believe in the 2e rulebook it should be like leather armor.

 

[vol.2]

I believe in the 2e rulebook it should be like leather armor.

The RPG stack exchange guys say it has no specific equivalent to any other armor stated, but it is the same weight as Studded Leather as far as encumbrance goes

The only relevant part of the 2e rules (and the EOB documentation) says that Rangers get their dual wield special abilities so long as they are wearing Studded Leather or lighter. It doesn't say it that means lighter as in encumbrance, or lighter as in protection. Most DMs I know have always allowed it, but it's a grey area in 2e rules, so in this case it's the game (EOB) that's making the call

I just don't know how it's programmed

 

[Comte_IV]

Guys how do you get C64 EOB to work? The directions are sort of murky.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Yeah, it'd be nice if that bonus was highlighted and/or x-out when wearing proper/not acceptable armor for the bonus. I forget. Does the THAC0 show in this game? Probably not for secondary weapons. And I dual wielded a lot in EOB-HACK (esp HACK)

 

[vol.2]

Does the THAC0 show in this game? Probably not for secondary weapons. And I dual wielded a lot in EOB-HACK (esp HACK)

Nope, not for attack. It only shows armor class.

 

[BruceVC]

I completed Dungeon Hack after about 50 hours, it was a great EOB experience but simpler because all keys are on the same levels and there arent any complicated puzzles

Its just a fun D&D dungeon crawl and well worth playing

Saint_Proverbius thanks for the suggestion, I wouldnt have played it now if you hadn't mentioned it


I did have to use a cheat twice to progress on certain levels because doors were closed with no keys and on one level I couldnt find the steps down and I think it was a bug which certain Dungeon Hack forums confirm can happen so you have to '' cheat " just to progress

The game gets a well deserved 62\100 on the globally respected "BruceVC game rating system " and is a recommended CPRG to play from a more light-hearted perspective

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I played the demo version of Dungeon Hack as well. It is a little different but not by much.

 

[TheKing01]

Are these games even worth the 31 odd megabytes, or another case of nostalgia baiting old games with no sequential soundtrack?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Soundtrack? Besides intro and outro you get constipated Minotaurs groaning, orcs & goblins with bad covid constantly coughing and snaggly toothed hags laughing in orgasms; what more could you want?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

For some reason I stopped getting alerts for this thread, so I've missed almost a month of posting.

Can anyone tell me if Dragon Skin Armor allows Rangers to receive their dual wield ability? It is the same weight as Studded Leather and 2e rules say that the special ability applies so long as the Ranger is wearing Studded Leather or lighter armor. This could be interpreted as "either Studded Leather or lighter than Studded Leather" or "armor equal to or less than the weight of Studded Leather." In my PNP experience, DMs have generally allowed it, but I have no idea how EOB works with that.

Weight/encumbrance is not a factor in the Eye of the Beholder-games, so that's not an issue.

I do not know the special properties of Dragon Leather in the 2e-rules system. Due to how the EotB-games handle internal mechanics, it's nearly impossible to know what's going on with many things. Whatever special properties the Dragon Leather armor may have in EotB2, it's only a +4 Leather Armor in EotB3, which is something at least. (IIRC it does not lose any AC when ported over to EotB3.)

Finally, I cannot confirm or deny that any of the terms and conditions of dual-wielding weapons apply in the EotB-trilogy, and again that for Rangers and their supposed reduced penalties.

Hi All

This is my first post. For some time now I have been disappointed that the first EOB was essentially unfinished when I found out about the hidden areas on levels 1-3. Version 1.9 makes some use of them but all that is there is a dagger and a food package. I would be great if a version 1.10 could be made that incorporates these into the end of the game i.e. the route to the surface. I have absolutely no clue about computer programming, otherwise I'd be happy to muck in and have a go at doing this myself. Some of the improvements/changes I'd love to see one day include the following

1. A burning hands scroll that can be scribed into a mage's spell book

2. The hidden area on level 5 with the 2 spiders and 4 shelves is accessible. Maybe the burning hands scroll could be put here?

3. The unused pictures of the dwarf celebrating and the dwarven king are displayed when you cure the dwarven king and possible an experience reward for completing this quest (8000 XP?)

4. The sceptre of kingly might is an item you return to the dwarves for a reward (5000 XP?)

5. When Xanathar is killed, you get 14,000 XP for killing a beholder (either by hacking away or by employing the spike trap) and he drops the stone gem. The game does not end here

6. The stone gem is used to teleport to level 3 using the portal on level 7

7. The stone gem is then used to open the door on level 3 where the blue eyes are

8. Moving up to level 1 leads to the exit and 10,000 XP (as per the place on the map you can access behind the fallen rubble)

9. The game saves to allow characters to be exported EOB2

10. The Amiga ending plays

It would be amazing if someone could do this e.g. the team that brought us V1.9. I was wondering if anyone has considered contacting the original programmers to find out what their plans were for the original ending and the way to the surface?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Hello, and welcome to the Codex, and one of the more peaceful discussion threads we have.

To answer your main question, I would LOVE to see an updated EotB-trilogy, even if it was just to fix bugs, balance things out and fill in gaps in the story. But at the same time I know that Westwood Studios were infamous for being sloppy when it comes to unfinished content and 'hiding' it from the player. You can see it in EotB2, Lands of Lore 1 & 2, and even the Kyrandia-games. Much of that cut content concerns the third act of the games, and how they cut content to streamline the game and get it out the door.

Think about the ending of EotB1 for a moment. The player has journeyed through most (possibly even all) of the 12 floors of the game, only to reach Ugly Big Bad in his lair and kick his butt (if he has one, that is). The developers want to have the party journey all the way back to the top of the dungeon to truly beat the game, but that takes time. Time, which we all know, Westwood rarely had. So we can see that they started work on implementing that feature, it clearly was abandoned in favor of a simple 'Greater Teleport'-spell being cast and the party whisked away to a happy ending. And that's before someone asks the player: "You've come this far, wanna go all the way back up to the first levels to beat the game?" I can understand Westwood's decision to not bother with that question, as they realize that many players have had enough by then and want to call it a day.

But if a remake/remastering would take place, I know exactly how I'd do things: I'd have the Xanathar-fight take place as normal, and then an in-game cutscene plays (kinda like the resurrection ones) where someone from the surface teleports down to the party's location, makes a note of their achievement, and then offers them a ride home. The player can accept, and the game ends (Amiga-ending style), or the player can refuse, saying that they'll find their own way back to the surface and keep playing the game. The true 'ending' would then be using the Stone Gem to activate the portal leading up to the third floor, and the player finding another exit from the sewers from there, triggering an enhanced version of the Amiga-ending.

This "we'll find our own way back, thanks"-option also allows players to keep exploring the game and uncover further secrets before ending the game.

Sounds good, yes? Well, it's not gonna happen unless the source code gets dug up, which is highly unlikely, sorry to say.

I see your wish list of changes there, and I like it. I have a few further suggestions which seem small and inconsequential, but help with the overall feel of the trilogy.

# Implementing low-level spells from the sequels. 'Improved Identify', 'Slow' and 'Poison' are my top suggestions, though the ultimate goal would be to have the available spells consistent in all three games.

# Rebalancing the spells. Many spells are borderline useless, others have extensive requirements to work, due to overreliance upon 2e rules. Has anyone ever made Shocking Grasp do anything worthwhile? Me neither. Changing it so that it can be cast on any party member, and for the next 10 seconds or so their next weapon attack does an extra +1D6 points of electrical damage (or so) doesn't sound that far-fetched, does it? Similar things need to be done to several spells.

# Expanding the story. Did you know that 'Xanathar' is more of a title than a name? That it's been used by a lineage of Beholders to run a Thieves' Guild underneath Waterdeep? The 'current' Xanathar is an established character in modern-day Dungeons & Dragons with a bizarre affection for a goldfish. (I'm not joking here.) This is but one of many examples where the story of all three games can be expanded. Each resurrected character in the first game gives their backstory before asking to join the party, but none of the characters in the sequel do this.

# Establish a proper connection between the third game and its prequels. EotB1 and EotB2 share some resources, monsters and story properties. EotB3 is essentially standalone. I'd make changes that bind them together, like having Beholders to fight in the third game, or even another dragon or two. (No one said they have to be alive...)

And that's just off the top of my head. Though to be honest, it's probably easier to just make a new game than try to fix the trilogy. Sad, but there you go.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

AppleII version of The Standing Stones had you descend, solve the old man's riddle, fight the dragon, get the grail, and then climb your ass back to the top of the dungeon. C64 didn't force you to return and I can't recall if you had to fight the dragon. Lordy, it has been a while. So yeah, climbing back up would maybe work except for the damn cave in. I'd assume there was a portal to exit the lair..... probably into the Rat Hills just outside waterdeep.



.....Or outside my parent's house I guess.

 

[vol.2]

Weight/encumbrance is not a factor in the Eye of the Beholder-games, so that's not an issue.

I do not know the special properties of Dragon Leather in the 2e-rules system. Due to how the EotB-games handle internal mechanics, it's nearly impossible to know what's going on with many things. Whatever special properties the Dragon Leather armor may have in EotB2, it's only a +4 Leather Armor in EotB3, which is something at least. (IIRC it does not lose any AC when ported over to EotB3.)

Finally, I cannot confirm or deny that any of the terms and conditions of dual-wielding weapons apply in the EotB-trilogy, and again that for Rangers and their supposed reduced penalties.

Okay. Thanks for the reply. I would suspect that the Dragon Skin Armor always counts as leather +4 in both games and that it thus counts as leather towards the Ranger's special abilities. Of course, that's also assuming the special ability is implemented at all anyways. I say this because the game uses the image of the leather armor for the item, which suggests in a basic way that the game devs meant you assume it was a kind of "Leather Armor."

Hello, and welcome to the Codex, and one of the more peaceful discussion threads we have.

To answer your main question, I would LOVE to see an updated EotB-trilogy, even if it was just to fix bugs, balance things out and fill in gaps in the story. But at the same time I know that Westwood Studios were infamous for being sloppy when it comes to unfinished content and 'hiding' it from the player. You can see it in EotB2, Lands of Lore 1 & 2, and even the Kyrandia-games. Much of that cut content concerns the third act of the games, and how they cut content to streamline the game and get it out the door.

Think about the ending of EotB1 for a moment. The player has journeyed through most (possibly even all) of the 12 floors of the game, only to reach Ugly Big Bad in his lair and kick his butt (if he has one, that is). The developers want to have the party journey all the way back to the top of the dungeon to truly beat the game, but that takes time. Time, which we all know, Westwood rarely had. So we can see that they started work on implementing that feature, it clearly was abandoned in favor of a simple 'Greater Teleport'-spell being cast and the party whisked away to a happy ending. And that's before someone asks the player: "You've come this far, wanna go all the way back up to the first levels to beat the game?" I can understand Westwood's decision to not bother with that question, as they realize that many players have had enough by then and want to call it a day.

But if a remake/remastering would take place, I know exactly how I'd do things: I'd have the Xanathar-fight take place as normal, and then an in-game cutscene plays (kinda like the resurrection ones) where someone from the surface teleports down to the party's location, makes a note of their achievement, and then offers them a ride home. The player can accept, and the game ends (Amiga-ending style), or the player can refuse, saying that they'll find their own way back to the surface and keep playing the game. The true 'ending' would then be using the Stone Gem to activate the portal leading up to the third floor, and the player finding another exit from the sewers from there, triggering an enhanced version of the Amiga-ending.

This "we'll find our own way back, thanks"-option also allows players to keep exploring the game and uncover further secrets before ending the game.

Sounds good, yes? Well, it's not gonna happen unless the source code gets dug up, which is highly unlikely, sorry to say.

I see your wish list of changes there, and I like it. I have a few further suggestions which seem small and inconsequential, but help with the overall feel of the trilogy.

# Implementing low-level spells from the sequels. 'Improved Identify', 'Slow' and 'Poison' are my top suggestions, though the ultimate goal would be to have the available spells consistent in all three games.

# Rebalancing the spells. Many spells are borderline useless, others have extensive requirements to work, due to overreliance upon 2e rules. Has anyone ever made Shocking Grasp do anything worthwhile? Me neither. Changing it so that it can be cast on any party member, and for the next 10 seconds or so their next weapon attack does an extra +1D6 points of electrical damage (or so) doesn't sound that far-fetched, does it? Similar things need to be done to several spells.

# Expanding the story. Did you know that 'Xanathar' is more of a title than a name? That it's been used by a lineage of Beholders to run a Thieves' Guild underneath Waterdeep? The 'current' Xanathar is an established character in modern-day Dungeons & Dragons with a bizarre affection for a goldfish. (I'm not joking here.) This is but one of many examples where the story of all three games can be expanded. Each resurrected character in the first game gives their backstory before asking to join the party, but none of the characters in the sequel do this.

# Establish a proper connection between the third game and its prequels. EotB1 and EotB2 share some resources, monsters and story properties. EotB3 is essentially standalone. I'd make changes that bind them together, like having Beholders to fight in the third game, or even another dragon or two. (No one said they have to be alive...)

I like the idea that the adventure continues, but I think it would be cooler to create a passage that takes the adventurer's to a new area of dungeon that is more of a mountain pass, and you have to negotiate out of that area, and then find your way back to Waterdeep. It would be a lot more interesting to see a different kind of terrain and it would open up new opportunities to use some of the neglected spells and items in the game. You could even incorporate the Stone Gem into that somehow. I think you could make it so when the Xanathar falls into his trap, it reveals a passageway behind it and that allows you access to a network of natural tunnels leading up to the surface

There might even be a plot that wraps up some of the opening sequence with the cabal of Lords. Maybe you expose one of them for some crime or being in league with the Xanathar. Waterdeep itself is a pretty cool setting, and it's a shame you don't really get to adventure there.

And that's just off the top of my head. Though to be honest, it's probably easier to just make a new game than try to fix the trilogy. Sad, but there you go.

Maybe, or more likely they would just do a total reboot of the series. That seems to be the way it's done these days. Although, I kind of doubt anyone from Westwood is nostalgic enough for EOB to make it happen. From what I gather they all went on to grandiose things and are unlikely to look that far behind. It's not like Wasteland where Fargo was practically chomping at the bit to reclaim his Fallout property.

 

[vol.2]

Also, I can't even begin to imagine who owns the rights to EOB now. WotC (DnD) and Ubisoft (SSI) would probably have to agree to do it together or something.