The Eye of the Beholder Thread

[BruceVC]

I completed EOB2 after about 35 hours

Rincewind I didnt think it was as good as EOB1 for 2 main reasons and these are also my main criticisms

First and main issue is you have an incredibly bad design where you cant complete the game if you dont find a specific item and you not able to go back to find the item because a particular door is closed. For example on Silver Tower level 3 you need to find the Crystal Hammer for access to the Azure Tower level but I didnt even know I had to find the Crystal Hammer and I got to the end of the Silver Tower, defeated the beholders and then got teleported back to Temple but I couldn't go back to Silver Tower L3 because the door on L2 is now closed.

I then had to use ASE teleport function to get through the Crystal Door but the Steam version of ASE doesn't include ASE teleport so I had to download and configure the normal ASE

But you shouldnt have to use a " cheat " just because you missed out on 1 item, any game should allow you to go back and find that item at the very least

EOB1 wasnt like that, it allowed to you travel back and retrace your steps and I didnt have to " cheat" once to complete the game

But I did enjoy EOB2, I liked several of the dungeon designs and puzzles like the Medusa Maze and the final battle with Dran was fun....I literally used save scumming and spent the entire battle moving from square to square to avoid his spells and then his dragon form fire breath. It was hard but he died at the end

EOB2 gets a 58/100 on the globally followed " BruceVC game rate system "

Its a fun game but very difficult and sometimes unfairly difficult. I cant imagine anyone completing this game without consulting game guides and getting tips but I suppose its possible

What is EOB3 like, is it worth playing?

 

[Rincewind]

I completed EOB2 after about 35 hours

Whoa, you're super fast! That's about 5-6 hours per day--are you retired or something?

In any case, I'm jealous of your free time

Rincewind I didnt think it was as good as EOB1 for 2 main reasons and these are also my main criticisms

[...]

But you shouldnt have to use a " cheat " just because you missed out on 1 item, any game should allow you to go back and find that item at the very least

Agreed, that's just bad design. Some people say, "oh, but that's hardcore, no handholding, etc", but I'm just, well, the game is wasting my time.

I did not run into such issues because I did collect everything, but still had to resort to walkthroughs 2-3 times because I was basically stuck. No pointers what to do, just use some random item you found a few levels below on something. So I had the item in my inventory, I just had no idea I should use it.

In adventure games this is actually not as bad because you're used to trying to use everything on everything when you're stuck, but there you usually get some verbal clues. But this is an RPG, so such obtuse "puzzle" only seem weird. There should have been a hint at least, e.g., one of your party members could say "I wonder if we could use a hammer on this thing" or something...

EOB1 wasnt like that, it allowed to you travel back and retrace your steps and I didnt have to " cheat" once to complete the game

Yeah, I also think EOB1 has a much better overall design. I did not have to use a walkthrough with EOB1 either.

But I did enjoy EOB2, I liked several of the dungeon designs and puzzles like the Medusa Maze and the final battle with Dran was fun....I literally used save scumming and spent the entire battle moving from square to square to avoid his spells and then his dragon form fire breath. It was hard but he died at the end

The Medusa Maze was one of the highlights for me, and it was fun figuring out how to lock the medusas in place on the pressure plates with spells.

I really hated the Dran battle, though. Ridiculous levels of savescumming and step-dancing, like you just said

EOB2 gets a 58/100 on the globally followed " BruceVC game rate system "

With 70 points for EOB1, it sounds about right. Probably I'd give 80-85 for EOB1, though, but it's your system

Its a fun game but very difficult and sometimes unfairly difficult. I cant imagine anyone completing this game without consulting game guides and getting tips but I suppose its possible

Yeah, I think they've overdone it a bit... It felt like they were just trying to turn everything up a notch.

What is EOB3 like, is it worth playing?

Dunno, I never played it.

 

[BruceVC]

I completed EOB2 after about 35 hours

Whoa, you're super fast! That's about 5-6 hours per day--are you retired or something?

In any case, I'm jealous of your free time

Rincewind I didnt think it was as good as EOB1 for 2 main reasons and these are also my main criticisms

[...]

But you shouldnt have to use a " cheat " just because you missed out on 1 item, any game should allow you to go back and find that item at the very least

Agreed, that's just bad design. Some people say, "oh, but that's hardcore, no handholding, etc", but I'm just, well, the game is wasting my time.

I did not run into such issues because I did collect everything, but still had to resort to walkthroughs 2-3 times because I was basically stuck. No pointers what to do, just use some random item you found a few levels below on something. So I had the item in my inventory, I just had no idea I should use it.

In adventure games this is actually not as bad because you're used to trying to use everything on everything when you're stuck, but there you usually get some verbal clues. But this is an RPG, so such obtuse "puzzle" only seem weird. There should have been a hint at least, e.g., one of your party members could say "I wonder if we could use a hammer on this thing" or something...

EOB1 wasnt like that, it allowed to you travel back and retrace your steps and I didnt have to " cheat" once to complete the game

Yeah, I also think EOB1 has a much better overall design. I did not have to use a walkthrough with EOB1 either.

But I did enjoy EOB2, I liked several of the dungeon designs and puzzles like the Medusa Maze and the final battle with Dran was fun....I literally used save scumming and spent the entire battle moving from square to square to avoid his spells and then his dragon form fire breath. It was hard but he died at the end

The Medusa Maze was one of the highlights for me, and it was fun figuring out how to lock the medusas in place on the pressure plates with spells.

I really hated the Dran battle, though. Ridiculous levels of savescumming and step-dancing, like you just said

EOB2 gets a 58/100 on the globally followed " BruceVC game rate system "

With 70 points for EOB1, it sounds about right. Probably I'd give 80-85 for EOB1, though, but it's your system

Its a fun game but very difficult and sometimes unfairly difficult. I cant imagine anyone completing this game without consulting game guides and getting tips but I suppose its possible

Yeah, I think they've overdone it a bit... It felt like they were just trying to turn everything up a notch.

What is EOB3 like, is it worth playing?

Dunno, I never played it.

No I work but I dont have kids so I basically have lots of free time in the evenings and weekends that I can utilize for gaming

Im glad Im not the only one who used walkthroughs, the game should have included more tips and hints as you mentioned

 

[Unkillable Cat]

First and main issue is you have an incredibly bad design where you cant complete the game if you dont find a specific item and you not able to go back to find the item because a particular door is closed. For example on Silver Tower level 3 you need to find the Crystal Hammer for access to the Azure Tower level but I didnt even know I had to find the Crystal Hammer and I got to the end of the Silver Tower, defeated the beholders and then got teleported back to Temple but I couldn't go back to Silver Tower L3 because the door on L2 is now closed.

I then had to use ASE teleport function to get through the Crystal Door but the Steam version of ASE doesn't include ASE teleport so I had to download and configure the normal ASE.

What, you didn't have a flying snake follow you so that it was stuck in the doorway when you first met Dran, thereby ensuring that the door couldn't close and allow you to return later, if needed?

Amateur.

...

I'm kidding. You actually have a very valid point of criticism there.

I cant imagine anyone completing this game without consulting game guides and getting tips but I suppose its possible

I did. But I didn't cheat to do it. What I did was that I bought a legal copy of the game back in the day. Inside the box was a printed 'Errata'-slip, which specifically mentions this problem, and how to avoid it. That means they caught it in playtesting after the gold masters were sent off to printing, but before the game box was finalized and released. Westwood had very little time to do QA on EotB2, and this was the horrible result.

Sadly digital copies of the game don't seem to include this errata, so fresh players like yourself go in blind.

What is EOB3 like, is it worth playing?

It leans more into D&D-rules, meaning you get pointless level restrictions on your party right off the bat. (Hopefully you didn't pick many demi-humans.)

You get an entirely optional dungeon at the start, which is also the hardest part of the game. (By far!)

You have to deal with environmentally-based puzzles. (Can you find your way in a forest? Can you hold your breath for ten minutes?)

You have several soft-lock situations like the case with the crystal hammer, but most of them are intentional traps where the only means of escape is reloading. The only solace I can provide is that they are somewhat localized, so little backtracking is required. Make a hard save at the start of every dungeon. (On the upside, you are never hindered from backtracking, except in the two boss battles.)

 

[BruceVC]

First and main issue is you have an incredibly bad design where you cant complete the game if you dont find a specific item and you not able to go back to find the item because a particular door is closed. For example on Silver Tower level 3 you need to find the Crystal Hammer for access to the Azure Tower level but I didnt even know I had to find the Crystal Hammer and I got to the end of the Silver Tower, defeated the beholders and then got teleported back to Temple but I couldn't go back to Silver Tower L3 because the door on L2 is now closed.

I then had to use ASE teleport function to get through the Crystal Door but the Steam version of ASE doesn't include ASE teleport so I had to download and configure the normal ASE.

What, you didn't have a flying snake follow you so that it was stuck in the doorway when you first met Dran, thereby ensuring that the door couldn't close and allow you to return later, if needed?

Amateur.

...

I'm kidding. You actually have a very valid point of criticism there.

I cant imagine anyone completing this game without consulting game guides and getting tips but I suppose its possible

I did. But I didn't cheat to do it. What I did was that I bought a legal copy of the game back in the day. Inside the box was a printed 'Errata'-slip, which specifically mentions this problem, and how to avoid it. That means they caught it in playtesting after the gold masters were sent off to printing, but before the game box was finalized and released. Westwood had very little time to do QA on EotB2, and this was the horrible result.

Sadly digital copies of the game don't seem to include this errata, so fresh players like yourself go in blind.

What is EOB3 like, is it worth playing?

It leans more into D&D-rules, meaning you get pointless level restrictions on your party right off the bat. (Hopefully you didn't pick many demi-humans.)

You get an entirely optional dungeon at the start, which is also the hardest part of the game. (By far!)

You have to deal with environmentally-based puzzles. (Can you find your way in a forest? Can you hold your breath for ten minutes?)

You have several soft-lock situations like the case with the crystal hammer, but most of them are intentional traps where the only means of escape is reloading. The only solace I can provide is that they are somewhat localized, so little backtracking is required. Make a hard save at the start of every dungeon. (On the upside, you are never hindered from backtracking, except in the two boss battles.)

I read the ASE install guide and they mentioned your involvement in proof reading and other things, I assume its you? I cant imagine there are many other Unkillable Cats out there

Great tool by the way, very useful and it integrates nicely into the Steam versions

 

[Elwro]

I think I did manage to lock myself in using portals in EoB1, on one of my unfinished playthroughs. But that was a combination of key and portal uses that wouldn't be natural at all, I think I wanted to try some new route...

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

EOB2 - Dran Dance of Death.

 

[Eisen]

EOB final bosses are a joke if you know how to tango-fight

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

It is even more silly in Warriors of the Eternal Sun. Machine gun sling/arrows esp with autofire gamepad.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I think I did manage to lock myself in using portals in EoB1, on one of my unfinished playthroughs. But that was a combination of key and portal uses that wouldn't be natural at all, I think I wanted to try some new route...

I'd have to check my notes, but I'm 100% certain this is possible. Might take me a while to spot it, though.

EOB final bosses are a joke if you know how to tango-fight

All bosses from similar games of the era are a joke, for the same reason.

 

[anvi]

If you like EOB2 you should play 3, it's mostly more of the same. I loved both games as a kid. They hold up ok but there are better alternatives to play these days. I always thought it was a great game as a kids first RPG. It has all the RPG basics there but not too complex. And it requires some realtime action but it's semi turn based so slowed down. Great place to start.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Pity Dungeon hack didn't come with a construction set as well or Dark Sun for that matter back in the day. At least we had FRUA.

 

[BruceVC]

I completed EOB3 after about 30 hours

I enjoyed it more than EOB2, the game started off terrible but it gets better as you progress. In the beginning you start off hacking trees in the forest and I thought " this is not fun" but once you get to the main dungeons it really improves. And there was a real problem with my sound on an early dungeon level. The background noise was this constant ringing but that seemed to go away once I left the level but it was so annoying I nearly stopped playing and disabling the sound ruins immersion

But what I appreciated is there were tips to puzzles and you could basically find everything you needed on the same level, you just needed to explore which is fine. The combat felt unbalanced at times, most enemies you could defeat easily except for earth elementals and these iron scorpions called Scaladars. The game has some improved features that help in combat where you can configure your whole party to attack at once and if you using long weapons like a Pole Arm then you party in the second row can attack without missile weapons. And this makes a noticeable difference

The game design did a job of providing you with several "healing oasis " if you dont have a healer and it also allowed some strategic NPC to join your party which made a difference to my overall combat effectiveness

The final battle with the Dark God was incredibly easy, I defeated him the first time with no save scumming and I was expecting another EOB2 Dran battle but it wasnt like that. I just moved away from him when he cast spells and I killed him after about 4-5 rounds

EOB3 gets a well deserved 62/100 on the globally respected " BruceVC game rating system" and its worth playing

I have now played the whole EOB series and EOB1 was my preferred game because it captures the overall classic dungeon explorer experience in the best way

I am going to have my normal genre break from these classic SSI games but the games I will play next from a Gold Box perspective is going to be Forgotten Realms Collection 2 which includes the Pools of Radiance and other similar games

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I have now played the whole EOB series and EOB1 was my preferred game because it captures the overall classic dungeon explorer experience in the best way

Dungeon Hack is pretty good, the Gold Box one. It uses the EotB engine, but it's single character. I think you'll quickly notice though, that cleric is by far the best choice for class.

 

[BruceVC]

I have now played the whole EOB series and EOB1 was my preferred game because it captures the overall classic dungeon explorer experience in the best way

Dungeon Hack is pretty good, the Gold Box one. It uses the EotB engine, but it's single character. I think you'll quickly notice though, that cleric is by far the best choice for class.

Yes I was reading up on Dungeon Hack, it does look good

I will definitely play it. I will probably play it before the FR Collection 2 because Im use to the EOB engine

 

[vol.2]

Can anyone tell me if Dragon Skin Armor allows Rangers to receive their dual wield ability? It is the same weight as Studded Leather and 2e rules say that the special ability applies so long as the Ranger is wearing Studded Leather or lighter armor. This could be interpreted as "either Studded Leather or lighter than Studded Leather" or "armor equal to or less than the weight of Studded Leather." In my PNP experience, DMs have generally allowed it, but I have no idea how EOB works with that.

I noticed that Unkillable Cat said earlier (on page 27) that Dragon Skin armor imports into EOB3 as Leather Armor anyways, so perhaps that suggests that it's treated as leather in EOB2? Does it lose AC when it is imported to 3?

Thanks

 

[thepill]

Anyone have thoughts on EOB vs. Legend of Grimrock?

 

[Eisen]

Anyone have thoughts on EOB vs. Legend of Grimrock?

EOB 1 vs LOG 1? I prefer EOB 1, the non-linearity with portals is hella good.

 

[Nikanuur]

Anyone have thoughts on EOB vs. Legend of Grimrock?

I feel like EoB is a bit of everything done at least okay or even well-enough. Grimrock can be somewhat too much to bear due to the heavy emphasis on puzzles.
Also, EoB feels like 'being there' because of all the little stories, people, and places tied together. There is little or none of that in Grimrock.
I'd have personally chosen EoB I and II over Grimrock.
On the other hand, Grimrock's a great game, I like it too. And it's modern and way more complex in all the departments except the said linearity and story. That can be a good deciding factor for many players.

 

[Dorateen]

Anyone have thoughts on EOB vs. Legend of Grimrock?

Grimrock doesn't have dwarves. Thus, EOB is the superior role-playing game.

 

[barwid02]

Hi All

This is my first post. For some time now I have been disappointed that the first EOB was essentially unfinished when I found out about the hidden areas on levels 1-3. Version 1.9 makes some use of them but all that is there is a dagger and a food package. I would be great if a version 1.10 could be made that incorporates these into the end of the game i.e. the route to the surface. I have absolutely no clue about computer programming, otherwise I'd be happy to muck in and have a go at doing this myself. Some of the improvements/changes I'd love to see one day include the following

1. A burning hands scroll that can be scribed into a mage's spell book
2. The hidden area on level 5 with the 2 spiders and 4 shelves is accessible. Maybe the burning hands scroll could be put here?
3. The unused pictures of the dwarf celebrating and the dwarven king are displayed when you cure the dwarven king and possible an experience reward for completing this quest (8000 XP?)
4. The sceptre of kingly might is an item you return to the dwarves for a reward (5000 XP?)
5. When Xanathar is killed, you get 14,000 XP for killing a beholder (either by hacking away or by employing the spike trap) and he drops the stone gem. The game does not end here
6. The stone gem is used to teleport to level 3 using the portal on level 7
7. The stone gem is then used to open the door on level 3 where the blue eyes are
8. Moving up to level 1 leads to the exit and 10,000 XP (as per the place on the map you can access behind the fallen rubble)
9. The game saves to allow characters to be exported EOB2
10. The Amiga ending plays

It would be amazing if someone could do this e.g. the team that brought us V1.9. I was wondering if anyone has considered contacting the original programmers to find out what their plans were for the original ending and the way to the surface?

What are everyone's thoughts?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Anyone have thoughts on EOB vs. Legend of Grimrock?

The first Legend of Grimrock is an homage to Dungeon Master, founder of the "real-time blobber" subgenre, and its only real weakness is that it's too similar to its illustrious predecessor. The second Legend of Grimrock expands on the formula in certain ways, including better character customization, but is generally more difficult, with some puzzles a bit obscure.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Hi All

This is my first post. For some time now I have been disappointed that the first EOB was essentially unfinished when I found out about the hidden areas on levels 1-3. Version 1.9 makes some use of them but all that is there is a dagger and a food package. I would be great if a version 1.10 could be made that incorporates these into the end of the game i.e. the route to the surface. I have absolutely no clue about computer programming, otherwise I'd be happy to muck in and have a go at doing this myself. Some of the improvements/changes I'd love to see one day include the following

1. A burning hands scroll that can be scribed into a mage's spell book
2. The hidden area on level 5 with the 2 spiders and 4 shelves is accessible. Maybe the burning hands scroll could be put here?
3. The unused pictures of the dwarf celebrating and the dwarven king are displayed when you cure the dwarven king and possible an experience reward for completing this quest (8000 XP?)
4. The sceptre of kingly might is an item you return to the dwarves for a reward (5000 XP?)
5. When Xanathar is killed, you get 14,000 XP for killing a beholder (either by hacking away or by employing the spike trap) and he drops the stone gem. The game does not end here
6. The stone gem is used to teleport to level 3 using the portal on level 7
7. The stone gem is then used to open the door on level 3 where the blue eyes are
8. Moving up to level 1 leads to the exit and 10,000 XP (as per the place on the map you can access behind the fallen rubble)
9. The game saves to allow characters to be exported EOB2
10. The Amiga ending plays

It would be amazing if someone could do this e.g. the team that brought us V1.9. I was wondering if anyone has considered contacting the original programmers to find out what their plans were for the original ending and the way to the surface?

What are everyone's thoughts?

That'd be cool. I'd be all for a special EOB 1-3 or 1-Hack edition with easy menu to transfer characters, Roster of alts like in Bard'stale, play Hack solo of with Party, choose if you want the updated 3 features to play 1-2 & party hack, include various mobs from 1-2 into hack (like the skeletons, kobolds, leeches, zombies, hornets, beholders, etc. etc etc).

A construction set. Build the EOB module of your dreams.

 

[vol.2]

Is the Constitution bonus to HPs for EOB the same as 2e rules? I have a level 10 fighter in EOB2 with 18 constitution, so he should get +3 and (4) = +7, but I've been reloading for a half hour and he only ever gets +6.

IIRC, I was getting predictable increases up til now, so I'm confused about what's going on. Is there supposed to be RNG on the Constitution bonus, or am I getting +6 because I'm supposed to get that for some other reason?

 

[jakkis]

Shouldn't you only get +3? The con bonuses ought to only count for the first levels with dice rolls. Be happy with your 6 ☺