The Greater General Codex Theory of 'What is an RPG?'

[octavius]

One problem with defining RPG is defining what "role playing" is.
Table top gaming with miniatures is only one definition. For most people "role playing" is something you do as part of some therapy or course, not a hobby. And using the broader definition of role playing, a game like Oblivion is much more of a role playing game than Pool of Radiance is.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Didn't read this, but has anyone defined what ''definition'' is in this thread?

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

this is the stupidest shit I have read today, it might be just something over 10 in the morning but still this is a very dumb position to have imo

a singleplayer computer game can NEVER truly simulate a PnP session as much as a drawing can never truly simulate a piece of music, or a movie or whatever the fuck else
videogames are a separate medium from board and PnP games and should be treated as such if their full potential is ever to be realized

So you think people couldn't sit around a table and play D&D inside a holodeck? Some of the players or even the DM could be AIs.

 

[adrix89]

D&D was never any good as an Role Playing Game and from that is what cRPGs mainly inherited. Not compared to better systems like the Burning Wheel where Role Playing actually gets done, not even compared to White Wolf or the many other better systems out there.

It has always been about the combat encounters with a bit of story and character to spice things up.

So the essence of "cRPG" truly boil down to tactics,resource management and CYOA book like narrative.

So when people talk about hardcore cRPGs they really talk about SS:Hammer and Sickle. That is the most pure "cRPG" out there.

If you want true Role Playing you aren't going to get it from cRPGs, you want more complex systems from a simulationist perspective because that is what computers need to do. PnP is limited by dice and stat sheets but has a human mind in control. A computer can handle infinite rules but has no mind in control so its up to its systems.

Alternatively true Role Playing can also be achieved through multiplayer, with carefully crafted systems that makes players interact with each other. Board Games have been doing this for years so there is no reason it can't be done other then collective incompetence of the game developers.

 

[Mustawd]

Using the above means produces a definition by percentage. And while a percentage definition could indeed eventually be parsed out through such means, the question has always been - why? "RPG" is a merchandising category, and so doesn't actually need such things. What's needed is not an exact definition of the term, but a better defined broad definition. And it only needs that because so many different game styles have been haphazardly given the same name. For instance - Diablo, the Infinity Engines, and Dragon Age are by no means the same game style, but they've all been pegged with "Action RPG". And, of course, they all are different from the likes of Temple of Apshai. So, what happens when someone walks into a store and says they "want an RPG". What did they just ask for, specifically? Nobody knows.

If we wanted to actually help in this matter, instead of a using a percentage definition (which would require consulting a pocket computer and backstory whenever inquiring about a new game, and even then doesn't offer any further context for the purposes of purchasing games than the system we have now), rather, what is needed is one of two things. Either dump a bunch of game styles out of the category of RPG, or add more sub-categories to the RPG header category. That way, people can better define what they are looking for. And, well, since so many people shit a brick whenever anyone tries to do the former, it's gonna be the latter.

Unfortunately, nothing will change unless some authority figure introduces such a system, or the merchants adopt something of the sort of their own accord. But for the purposes of exercising the brain, here's the kind of thing it would look like were it to come to pass:

Traditional RPG - a game that attempts to emulate the old-school pen & paper rpg experience on a computer.

* And from there, anything else is - rightly - a hybrid. *

Adventure RPG - a game that mixes interactive storytelling and inventory puzzles (fetch quests) with the traditional rpg experience. Very popular in certain parts of the world.

Storybook RPG - a game that tells a non-interactive story interspersed with periods of the traditional rpg experience. Prime Example: Final Fantasy.

Gauntlet RPG - a game that mixes the traditional rpg experience with run-n-gun combat (as in, running the gauntlet). Prime Example: Diablo.

Action RPG - a game that mixes hack-n-slash personal combat with the traditional rpg experience. Prime Example: Witcherz.

Action Adventure - a game that mixes hack-n-slash personal combat (or shooter combat) with interactive storytelling and inventory puzzles (fetch quests). Prime Example: Mass Effect 2.

Otaku RPG - a game that may make use of traditional rpg elements, but that is primarily designed to give copious amounts of hip in-jokes and in-the-know references to lovers of Japanimation. Prime Example: Undertale.

Action RPG is flawed. Why hack and slash What if it was an RPG in a different setting where melee wasn't used? Like NCAA Football for example.

 

[Telengard]

Don't be silly. If someone ever made a football version of rpg - you know, where you go around and whoop gang members and immigrants with your soccer ball kicks and steal their wallets - then it would be called a Football RPG.

 

[Black_Willow]

cRPGs imitate PnP RPG. Since in PnP RPGs one character is controlled by a single player, all party - based games are not cRPGs.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Savage Worlds (a pnp RPG system) solved the problem with boring battles involving a large number of NPCs by always giving players control of friendly NPCs. If I recall correctly in ADnD you could have henchmen and followers (who levelled with you but were always a few level below you, their number was limited by your harisma) and at level 10 or something warriors gained controls of small armies. Followers in ADnD had a morale system not much different from the one used in Baldur's Gate for your party members. This made them different than characters controlled by other players because these could never panic unless players decided to panic or characters were under some sort of spell.

 

[Carrion]

Soon you will come to realize that crpg stats are themselves a limitation upon Adventure, Wonder, and Etc.

Why would they be? Are they a limitation with PnP RPGs as well? If anything, by detaching cRPGs from PnP RPGs you can have more stats and more difficult calculations than in a PnP session, as you're not suffering from the practical limitations that emerge from very complex rulesets in a game where all calculations are done manually by puny humans.


Of course, tabletop RPGs can be a valuable influence, as they tend to have well-developed and well-tested rulesets among other things, something that cRPGs are often sorely lacking. Still, saying that cRPGs are supposed to emulate a PnP session is as insane as saying that a movie based on a book is supposed to emulate the act of reading that particular book. CRPGs aren't (and shouldn't be) a derivative or a hopeless imitation of PnP RPGs, but rather another medium with its own strengths that draws from the same source but uses different methods for achieving the same thing. Basing a cRPG on a PnP RPG means that you're not properly utilizing the strengths of either medium, neither the computing power of a computer nor the social aspects, freedom and flexibility of a PnP RPG.

 

[Lhynn]

Why would they be? Are they a limitation with PnP RPGs as well? If anything, by detaching cRPGs from PnP RPGs you can have more stats and more difficult calculations than in a PnP session, as you're not suffering from the practical limitations that emerge from very complex rulesets in a game where all calculations are done manually by puny humans.

oh wow, im reading lines i hadnt read since the 90s now.

Of course, tabletop RPGs can be a valuable influence, as they tend to have well-developed and well-tested rulesets among other things, something that cRPGs are often sorely lacking. Still, saying that cRPGs are supposed to emulate a PnP session is as insane as saying that a movie based on a book is supposed to emulate the act of reading that particular book. CRPGs aren't (and shouldn't be) a derivative or a hopeless imitation of PnP RPGs, but rather another medium with its own strengths that draws from the same source but uses different methods for achieving the same thing. Basing a cRPG on a PnP RPG means that you're not properly utilizing the strengths of either medium, neither the computing power of a computer nor the social aspects, freedom and flexibility of a PnP RPG.

Stop being retarded, the only way cRPGs work and are mildly fun is when they actually try to be a derivative and hopeless imitation of PnP RPGs. Almost everything else is p. much irredeemable shit or cant be called RPG (and is still irredeemable shit in most cases).

 

[mondblut]

The "cRPGs are supposed to emulate a tabletop session" view needs to die already.

The "a phone is supposed to be used to make calls" view needs to die already. A phone is to make selfies and post on instagram!

 

[Carrion]

Stop being retarded, the only way cRPGs work and are mildly fun is when they actually try to be a derivative and hopeless imitation of PnP RPGs.

Few games actually try to imitate PnP, which is one of the reason the whole notion is so goddamn stupid. None of the Codex Holy Trinity tries to be an imitation of PnP. Torment takes its ruleset and setting from PnP games, but as a game it couldn't be much further from a PnP session, unless you've got one fucked-up GM. Fallout and Arcanum put a lot of focus into replicating certain aspects of PnP, like the freedom of choice in how to do things, but it does it all based on how things would best work on a PC — it shares similar goals with PnP games, but it doesn't try to be one. And of course, JA2's combat system blows every single d20 cRPG out of the water so hard that it's not even funny. Pure turn-based dungeon crawlers are probably the closest thing to a "genuine PnP experience".

The whole argument is not about what cRPGs should be but what people think they are, i.e. what is an RPG, and the point is that the PnP definition is just as flawed as any other.

 

[mondblut]

Pure turn-based dungeon crawlers are probably the closest thing to a "genuine PnP experience".

And they just happen to be the original, genuine, firstborn CRPGs.

Some people do not give a fuck about "adventure and wonder". We love Wizardry and Pools of Darkness for what they are, not for what they could have been if only those pesky PnP rules were replaced with the glorious immersive akshun of a holodeck. And what they are IS CRPGs, because that's what CRPGs were from day one, while anything that doesn't play like a PnP simulation is not. A hovercraft may move you around better than a car, but a car it is not, and peddling it to car enthusiasts with statements like "cars shouldn't have wheels, wheels are obsolete and keep them down" is retarded.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Of course, tabletop RPGs can be a valuable influence, as they tend to have well-developed and well-tested rulesets among other things, something that cRPGs are often sorely lacking. Still, saying that cRPGs are supposed to emulate a PnP session is as insane as saying that a movie based on a book is supposed to emulate the act of reading that particular book. CRPGs aren't (and shouldn't be) a derivative or a hopeless imitation of PnP RPGs, but rather another medium with its own strengths that draws from the same source but uses different methods for achieving the same thing. Basing a cRPG on a PnP RPG means that you're not properly utilizing the strengths of either medium, neither the computing power of a computer nor the social aspects, freedom and flexibility of a PnP RPG.

Stop being retarded, the only way cRPGs work and are mildly fun is when they actually try to be a derivative and hopeless imitation of PnP RPGs. Almost everything else is p. much irredeemable shit or cant be called RPG (and is still irredeemable shit in most cases).[/QUOTE]

Actually there are many great RPGs that don't really try to emulate PnP sessions. Morrowind, Gothics, Deus Ex, Megaten games, real time dungeon crawlers, Ultima Underworld, System Schock 2. I'd even say that most later Ultimas don't really try to emualte PnP games since I've never played an RPG session which was actually a one big puzzle game with sporadic combat encounters.

 

[Carrion]

Some people do not give a fuck about "adventure and wonder".

Come on, is there anything that screams "adventure" more than a group of, uh, adventurers killing stuff in a dungeon? Don't get hung up on that.

We love Wizardry and Pools of Darkness for what they are, not for what they could have been if only those pesky PnP rules were replaced with the glorious immersive akshun of a holodeck.

So do I. It's still isn't about cRPGs should be but what they actually are, although I'm willing to make a concession for the "mondblutian RPG" sub-genre.

And what they are IS CRPGs, because that's what CRPGs were from day one, while anything that doesn't play like a PnP simulation is not.

You forgot about the most important rule, though. In the end, it's still just you and your computer (and neither of you care).

 

[Daedalos]

A game in which you play a role.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

HiddenX already did this.

link?

He probably means what's found in this thread.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/what-is-a-crpg-2014-edition.90244/

that was a bredy gud thread

One of the first I posted in and I immediately got into an argument with hiver, lol. Kinda miss the guy.

Maybe the discussion would be more fruitful if instead of 'What is an RPG' it was titled 'Why do we like to play RPGs' ?

I was so wise already, even back then.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Or, instead of trying to define RPG, you can just sit back and enjoy good video games. Is Deus Ex an RPG? It's a great game regardless of the answer. Same with System Shock 2, same with Dark Souls, same with the later GTA games. On that Top 70 list, how many of those games have somewhat dubious RPG credentials (at least to some people), and yet if they happen to be amazing games, does it matter?

 

[Lhynn]

Stop being retarded, the only way cRPGs work and are mildly fun is when they actually try to be a derivative and hopeless imitation of PnP RPGs.

Few games actually try to imitate PnP, which is one of the reason the whole notion is so goddamn stupid.

wat?

None of the Codex Holy Trinity tries to be an imitation of PnP.

They are all derived from PnP or have their own PnP system. what the fuck are you talking about?

Torment takes its ruleset and setting from PnP games, but as a game it couldn't be much further from a PnP session

The fuck do you know about mine or someone elses PnP sessions, we are discussing rulesets and what inspired settings, quests etc.

Fallout and Arcanum put a lot of focus into replicating certain aspects of PnP, like the freedom of choice in how to do things, but it does it all based on how things would best work on a PC — it shares similar goals with PnP games, but it doesn't try to be one.

Yes it does, you said it yourself you retarded cuck, it tries to offer you the freedom of choice you would get on a table, also its ruleset is a PnP ruleset.

And of course, JA2's combat system blows every single d20 cRPG out of the water so hard that it's not even funny.

JA2 is not an RPG.

Pure turn-based dungeon crawlers are probably the closest thing to a "genuine PnP experience".

Depends on the DM you stupid cuck. If i prepare a story for my players about them solving a puzzle, or them doing pure character development faggotry they will play it and it wont be less of a PnP session. RPGs is not about hitting monsters with a sword in a dungeon.

The whole argument is not about what cRPGs should be but what people think they are, i.e. what is an RPG, and the point is that the PnP definition is just as flawed as any other.

Its a measure of how much of an RPG is a game, not if its good, only if it belongs to the genre and how much of it does.

 

[mondblut]

good video games.

wat?

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Lhynn
Why is JA2 not an RPG? It has quests, dungeoneering, exploration, levelling up, NPCs and all that crap. I'd imagine that an RPG session about liberating a small African country would play similarly to JA2. With a bit streamlined combat system of course.

 

[Carrion]

They are all derived from PnP or have their own PnP system. what the fuck are you talking about?

So? The systems are generally the weakest part of those games, and they're classics regardless of them rather than because of them.

Yes it does, you said it yourself you retarded cuck, it tries to offer you the freedom of choice you would get on a table, also its ruleset is a PnP ruleset.

It tries to offer the freedom of choice you would get on a table. It doesn't try to offer the feeling of actually sitting around a table*. I don't know how much clearer I can be about this. Also, the PnP ruleset came afterwards. Does that mean that PnP Fallout tries to emulate cRPG Fallout?

Then again, we're probably discussing just semantics of the word "emulate" at this point.

* Yes, there are people who actually think cRPGs should have a virtual DM.

JA2 is not an RPG.

Would it be if it used d20 combat rules?

RPGs is not about hitting monsters with a sword in a dungeon.

The further you go from that, the bigger the gap between the two mediums grows, though. Hitting monsters with a sword is one of the few things about PnP that you can properly emulate on a computer.

 

[Gregz]

Is Deus Ex an RPG? It's a great game regardless of the answer. Same with System Shock 2...

You wouldn't know that if you hadn't played them, and you very likely wouldn't have played them if you didn't get a recommendation from someone whose opinion you trust.

How many shit games have you sunk 10, 20, even 40 hours into only to realize you were playing a shit game? (Skyrim anyone? PoE?) Wouldn't it be nice to never do that again? Look at what poor felipepepe went through recently:

Dungeon Siege - How the hell was this ever popular?

Our time is valuable, and that's why it's equally valuable to develop a methodology that will ensure that whatever game we end up starting, we will enjoy it based on our own personal criteria.

That's why I believe the RPG element approach (http://www.rpgwatch.com/crpg-analyzer.html) is so useful.

Type in the RPG elements you like about PST, Fallout, Fallout 2, or w/e your absolute favorite games are, and get a list of every game (computer or console) ever made that matches those criteria, sorted by popularity. How would that not be awesome?

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

How many shit games have you sunk 10, 20, even 40 hours into only to realize you were playing a shit game? (Skyrim anyone?)

To be honest Skyrim like most TES games was shit from the beginning. However unlike the good instalments in the series it doesn't get good later on.

 

[Lhynn]

So? The systems are generally the weakest part of those games, and they're classics regardless of them rather than because of them.

People said the systems were the weakest part of those games, then a decade went by and no system was any better than them. People have been complaining on how "bad" AD&D was for like 20 years, and it turns out very few have managed to do any better.

It tries to offer the freedom of choice you would get on a table. It doesn't try to offer the feeling of actually sitting around a table*. I don't know how much clearer I can be about this. Also, the PnP ruleset came afterwards. Does that mean that PnP Fallout tries to emulate cRPG Fallout?

What the fuck? why would anyone want to imitate the feeling of sitting around a table? The important part of PnP is playing your character in a given setting, with the freedom to interact with said world and maybe grow. For a long time RPGs have been able to manage little else but the combat part of the interaction, maybe with some dialogues and quests sprinkled in, all to emulate a DM.

* Yes, there are people who actually think cRPGs should have a virtual DM.

Its a good idea, just impossible to pull off.

Would it be if it used d20 combat rules?

It would be if you played a character.

The further you go from that, the bigger the gap between the two mediums grows, though. Hitting monsters with a sword is one of the few things about PnP that you can properly emulate on a computer.

But it isnt, modules have been ported to engines like aurora rather successfully. a lot of nwn modules didnt even feature combat, or very little of it, and it wasnt any less of an rpg because of this.