Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[pippin]

You should have kept that review until IWDEE came out, so Wizards of the Coast retracted its decision of (apparently) let Trent make BG3.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Thinking about it also, chapter 6 (and to a lesser degree 5) are far more open and alinear than any of the dungeons found in either BG game's MQ.

It's too bad that far and away the best section of the game was the one the fewest people saw.

Every time I replay the game I struggle with burnout fatigue somewhere in Dragon's Eye (which is in my opinion one of the lowest lows of all the IE games), and have to remind myself that it's all a steady incline afterwards.

 

[jdinatale]

I stopped reading that post at the first point in "cons". Fucking crpgs, how do they work.

No dude. CRPG's have a rich history of having wonderful, complex stories. There was no excuse for IWD to have a piss poor story.

These are just the RPG's that I've played that had incredible stories, and there are a ton more on the top 70 that I haven't played yet:

-Planescape
-The Witcher (franchise)
-Baldur's Gate (only played the first one so far, but it was memorable)
-System Shock 2
-KoToR (franchise)
-Mask of the Betrayer
-Morrowind

And like I said, those are just the ones I've played.

 

[Abelian]

His first con about content I think, is kinda right, I enjoyed IWD but man there wasn't much side activities or side locations or whatever like in the other IE games, almost everything is related to the main quest so kinda linear or something.

As the saying goes: it's not a bug, it's a feature. The entire concept behind the IWD series is to roll your own characters and go dungeon crawling.

I found the plot to be utilitarian, ie (pun not intended) it provides any random party a justification to explore a bunch of dungeons.

 

[Dreaad]

I stopped reading that post at the first point in "cons". Fucking crpgs, how do they work.

No dude. CRPG's have a rich history of having wonderful, complex stories. There was no excuse for IWD to have a piss poor story.

These are just the RPG's that I've played that had incredible stories, and there are a ton more on the top 70 that I haven't played yet:

-Planescape
-The Witcher (franchise)
-Baldur's Gate (only played the first one so far, but it was memorable)
-System Shock 2
-KoToR (franchise)
-Mask of the Betrayer
-Morrowind

And like I said, those are just the ones I've played.

Yeah.... you are so wrong, so very very wrong. The 'history' you mention is the last decade and a few choice picks from earlier. Nothing wrong with liking a story, just don't confuse that with being a universally liked feature that everyone should worship. A subtle dungeon crawling story has huge appeal, especially when you finally get tired of chosen ones and feels.

 

[Lilura]

His first con about content I think, is kinda right, I enjoyed IWD but man there wasn't much side activities or side locations or whatever like in the other IE games, almost everything is related to the main quest so kinda linear or something. The only thing I remember is a quest to revive a garden in the Hand area or something, I thought that looked pretty great but I am not sure if it was a vanilla content or Unfinished Business related content.

Vanilla. There are a few other sidequests, too. Nothing Planescape-esque, but who cares. I didn't, and I played IWD when it came out straight after BG1. I remember playing it more than Diablo 2, at the time, because I liked the idea of making a party and just going through a fairly well-paced adventure with half decent combat and unforgettable VOs/music/atmosphere.

Also, Storm of Zehir became the new IWD. Solid game.

 

[Crichton]

I stopped reading that post at the first point in "cons". Fucking crpgs, how do they work.

No dude. CRPG's have a rich history of having wonderful, complex stories. There was no excuse for IWD to have a piss poor story.

These are just the RPG's that I've played that had incredible stories, and there are a ton more on the top 70 that I haven't played yet:

-Planescape
-The Witcher (franchise)
-Baldur's Gate (only played the first one so far, but it was memorable)
-System Shock 2
-KoToR (franchise)
-Mask of the Betrayer
-Morrowind

And like I said, those are just the ones I've played.

The worth of fiction is subjective; so I try to be tolerant of people who don't like stories that I like. But your opinion is so wrong that you have snapped that tolerance like a piece of rubber overstretched.

The Witcher? Here's your plot: Medieval fantasy Pseudo-Hitler wants to start a race-war with non-humans to wipe them out and seize their nice temperate lands; and it's going to take a real hero to stop him because he's created an army of non-humans.

Oh wait, there's also choices and consequences. You can fight him because he's a threat to humans...

or you can fight him because he's a threat to non-humans.

KoToR: Space Opera Pseudo-Hitler and his horde of faceless followers want to take over the galaxy for no discernible reason. You can stop them because your friends want you to or you can supplant him and rule the galaxy yourself because why not?

System Shock 2: 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Baldur's Gate: Highlander.


IWD doesn't have the depth of Planescape: Torment or Mask of the Betrayer but it does everything well; good setting, good character development, and the plot moves itself along nicely; the pacing is good and the twist isn't oversold. I can understand why not everyone loves the gameplay of IWD, but all of the non-gameplay content, including the writing, is excellent.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Also, Storm of Zehir became the new IWD. Solid game.

Eh. Not really. I am a self-proclaimed Obs fanboy (and I thought SoZ was pretty awesome), but holy shit does the NWN2 engine suck shit for tactical combat.

These are just the RPG's that I've played that had incredible stories, and there are a ton more on the top 70 that I haven't played yet:

-Planescape
-The Witcher (franchise)
-Baldur's Gate (only played the first one so far, but it was memorable)
-System Shock 2
-KoToR (franchise)
-Mask of the Betrayer
-Morrowind

And like I said, those are just the ones I've played.

That's cool man. Those are just, like, the ones you've played.





In all seriousness, the inclusion of BG1 makes me faintly suspect you're trolling. I'm not one to defend IWD's plot (it's fine, but nothing to write home about), but the actual quality and thematic cohesion of writing in IWD beats the shit out of the generally amateur writing of BG1.

Things BG1 has in the writing department:

A "MUAHAHAHAHAING" villain featured in the opening of the game.

A poor young farm choir boy girl whatever forced (FORCED, I SAY, FORCED!) into events far beyond their control.

Gorion (Seriously; not only is he a shit step-father, but he's also the most incompetent fucking Harper ever).

Minsc (who admittedly had not yet reached full levels of derp).


I get why BG1 is considered a classic. It sucessfully marketed itself as "Forgotten Realms: Mary Sue You", and it demonstrated RTwP didn't have to be as shit as in every other RTwP game before it, but if you're holding it up as a highwater mark well... dude you need to play more better games.

 

[Lilura]

Eh. Not really. I am a self-proclaimed Obs fanboy (and I thought SoZ was pretty awesome), but holy shit does the NWN2 engine suck shit for tactical combat.

Got a single informed opinion to back that up? I mean, the cam takes some getting used to (use marquee select and Strategy cam), but it does a decent job.

 

[J_C]

Things BG1 has in the writing department:

A "MUAHAHAHAHAING" villain featured in the opening of the game.

A poor young farm choir boy girl whatever forced (FORCED, I SAY, FORCED!) into events far beyond their control.

Gorion (Seriously; not only is he a shit step-father, but he's also the most incompetent fucking Harper ever).

Minsc (who admittedly had not yet reached full levels of derp).

.

Hm..ok, I get what you are saying, you might have a point he...

but the actual quality and thematic cohesion of writing in IWD beats the shit out of the generally amateur writing of BG1.

Fuck off with this BS. Those 2 games are generally have the same writing quality, complexity. Meaning they are not complex, but serve the game well.

 

[throwaway]

1/4 of the city of Baldur's gate has more opportunities for non-combat gameplay than the entire IWD. I wouldn't bother arguing about quality since for me "the issue" is about just how light IWD is on the story side of things. I'm sure half of these complaints wouldn't exist if when included in the top##s amongst the more fully fledged RPGs IWD had a huge disclaimer saying it's little more than a dungeon cralwer.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

In all seriousness, the inclusion of BG1 makes me faintly suspect you're trolling. I'm not one to defend IWD's plot (it's fine, but nothing to write home about), but the actual quality and thematic cohesion of writing in IWD beats the shit out of the generally amateur writing of BG1.

No trolling here, BG1's plotting is seriously under-rated and the plot of Icewind Dale is pretty cliche and markedly worse.

The first Baldur's Gate deals primarily with a merchant consortium's vast conspiracy to gain a monopoly on the lucrative iron trade in one of Faerun's largest, most prosperous city-states. Concurrently, they are also poisoning the relationship between the city-state of Baldur's Gate and the nation of Amn, in order to incite fears of a war and drive demand for weapons/armor, and thus iron. Unbeknown to most of the conspirators, one of them plans to backstab the rest of them (literally), and actually follow through with the war, as he believes causing such bloodshed will help him ascend to demi-godhood. The player character just happens to be a possible competitor for the mantle of godhood, and only is drawn into the web of conspiracies because Sarevok tries (and fails) to kill them.

It's an interesting enough plot, and most of the story revolves around discovering and unraveling the conspiracy, not the Bhaalspawn shenanigans. It keeps the player engaged with companions edging the character towards investigating Nashkel/Bandits and a slew of assassins out for the player character's head.

Certainly the actual writing leaves a lot to be desired. The game has a lot of issues keeping a consistent tone, unsure of what it's trying to achieve. At a place like the Nashkel Fair, you can easily have the following interactions:

-Talks with peasants about how the bad economy, caused by the iron crisis, has impacted their lives.
-Merchants talking in ye olde englishe
-Other merchants spouting 90's era slang
-Blatant goofiness like an exploding ogre show or Lord Binky the Buffoon.
-English/Lit majors at Bioware pushing their verse in-game
-A pickpocket who loudly announces he is steal from you, and how much of a master thief he is

Clearly there wasn't anything approaching consistent direction, the writing is patchwork from a whole bunch of people who likely had different ideas of what the tone of the game should be like; some thinking an SSI Pool-to-Pools tetralogy high-adventure, some a more gritty/realistic experience, and others a Fallout 2 reference-a-rama.

Consistency of tone was an area where Icewind Dale fared much better, but the overarching plot was far inferior to that of BG1. It basically boils down to stopping a mustache-twirling Pit Fiend from opening a portal to the Nine Hells and reaping all of Faerun's souls. While the game did an okay job of stringing the player from dungeon-crawl to dungeon-crawl, upon reflection the plot falls apart.

After Chapter 2, there's pretty much nothing standing between Belhifet and Jerrod's Stone; most of Easthaven's defenders are dead in the avalanche, and the player party has banished Yxunomei back to the Abyss. A Pit Fiend, in possession of an extremely powerful magical artifact, and some frost giants could easily roll into Easthaven and allow him access to Jerrod's Stone. Instead, he sits around for four chapters while the party systematically tears apart his forces, breaks down his inner sanctum door, and then proceeds to do a typical villainous monologue before departing...but leaving a teleportal open for enough time that the party could squeeze through and foil his plans just in the nick of time.

It's stuff like this that makes me believe that Icewind Dale underwent major storyline revisions midway through development, with the "Blood War skirmish on Faerun" being added in as some late-development script-doctoring to patch things up when the initial plan fell through (perhaps they had intended Icewind Dale to more closely follow Salvatore's trilogy of the same name, but Wizards of the Coast didn't want a game contradicting book canon). The whole thing simply doesn't fit well at all. Yxunomei feels out of place too; she's a Marilith, brilliant strategics, tacticians, and masters of inter-plane logistics...but she recruits a bunch of cold-blooded creatures to fight for her against Belhifet in the Frozen North. Seems extremely uncharacteristic...like she was shoehorned into her dungeon boss role when plans changed.

That said, Black Isle did a great job with a lot of secondary storyline/writing elements, like the detailed backstory of the Hand of the Seldarine/Dorn's Deep conflict. But the plotting was really shoddy, and I'm surprised at how little critique it receives, especially from folks who lambaste BG1.

 

[Jaesun]

 

[octavius]

I second that

 

[Comte]

I third that

 

[Lyric Suite]

That said, Black Isle did a great job with a lot of secondary storyline/writing elements, like the detailed backstory of the Hand of the Seldarine/Dorn's Deep conflict. But the plotting was really shoddy, and I'm surprised at how little critique it receives, especially from folks who lambaste BG1.

It receives little criticism because the game was sold as an action RPG from the get go. I think we are lucky at all that we got all those cool back stories and world building to begin with. And i'm sure that stuff was added only because Black Isle could not help Black Isle. But the story of the game was quite obviously deliberately generic.

 

[Lilura]

Yxunomei feels out of place too; she's a Marilith, brilliant strategics, tacticians, and masters of inter-plane logistics...but she recruits a bunch of cold-blooded creatures to fight for her against Belhifet in the Frozen North. Seems extremely uncharacteristic...like she was shoehorned into her dungeon boss role when plans changed.

My understanding is that Yxunomei wanted to transform the North into a jungle and then use her yuan-ti army amassing in Dragon's Eye (which was volcanic, and therefore warm and fuzzy for lizardfolk) to defeat Belhifet and conquer the North for herself. She also didn't just have yuan-ti, remember all the undead and the Talonites? But I think the yuan-ti were her preferred force, since they're decent tacticians themselves (see IWD2 and especially SoZ).

 

[agris]

I fourth it. I'm going to replay IWD (via the EE, shoot me) soon, so I'll offer a follow-up to Edward_R_Murrow's comments.

 

[Infinitron]

Consistency of tone was an area where Icewind Dale fared much better, but the overarching plot was far inferior to that of BG1. It basically boils down to stopping a mustache-twirling Pit Fiend from opening a portal to the Nine Hells and reaping all of Faerun's souls. While the game did an okay job of stringing the player from dungeon-crawl to dungeon-crawl, upon reflection the plot falls apart.

After Chapter 2, there's pretty much nothing standing between Belhifet and Jerrod's Stone; most of Easthaven's defenders are dead in the avalanche, and the player party has banished Yxunomei back to the Abyss. A Pit Fiend, in possession of an extremely powerful magical artifact, and some frost giants could easily roll into Easthaven and allow him access to Jerrod's Stone. Instead, he sits around for four chapters while the party systematically tears apart his forces, breaks down his inner sanctum door, and then proceeds to do a typical villainous monologue before departing...but leaving a teleportal open for enough time that the party could squeeze through and foil his plans just in the nick of time.

It's stuff like this that makes me believe that Icewind Dale underwent major storyline revisions midway through development, with the "Blood War skirmish on Faerun" being added in as some late-development script-doctoring to patch things up when the initial plan fell through (perhaps they had intended Icewind Dale to more closely follow Salvatore's trilogy of the same name, but Wizards of the Coast didn't want a game contradicting book canon). The whole thing simply doesn't fit well at all. Yxunomei feels out of place too; she's a Marilith, brilliant strategics, tacticians, and masters of inter-plane logistics...but she recruits a bunch of cold-blooded creatures to fight for her against Belhifet in the Frozen North. Seems extremely uncharacteristic...like she was shoehorned into her dungeon boss role when plans changed.

That said, Black Isle did a great job with a lot of secondary storyline/writing elements, like the detailed backstory of the Hand of the Seldarine/Dorn's Deep conflict. But the plotting was really shoddy, and I'm surprised at how little critique it receives, especially from folks who lambaste BG1.

Paging Roguey

 

[Roguey]

Icewind Dale didn't have a lead designer/creative lead, it was mostly just a bunch of junior designers new to RPG-making (or fresh from Torment) told to make a story-based dungeon crawl and left to their own devices.

"Why don't the enemies just attack you all at once" is something that can apply to nearly every game ever.

 

[Snufkin]

Got EE, big surprise are not BG imported sub classes but totaly NEW ones; like : black guard, shadowdancer or dragon disciple and some monk subclasses.

 

[Dreaad]

Got EE, big surprise are not BG imported sub classes but totaly NEW ones; like : black guard, shadowdancer or dragon disciple and some monk subclasses.

Yeah, you seem to be out of the loop a little bit. All of the above were added in all the EE titles.

 

[Sunsetspawn]

Negative saving throws?

When I buffed my Gnome fighter/thief's saving throws to negative he failed every one and ate his fucking balls. Is this a known bug?

 

[Average Manatee]

BG1's plot is decent on reflection, but the pacing really kills any in-the-moment sense of enjoyment at reaching a new plot point. IWD's plot doesn't make a ton of sense, but has excellent pacing and atmosphere.

Bad story told well > Good story told poorly.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Bad story told well > Good story told poorly.

Yes, that's a better way to put it than I did previously.