Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[0sacred]

Dual wielding on non-rangers yay or nay? I heard way back that there aren't good off-hand weapons or rather that many enemies are resistant to piercing, and that clubs don't count as light weapons in IWD2.

 

[Average Manatee]

Generally speaking you only ever get one attack with the offhand, which isn't worth taking a -2 or -4 penalty to AB along with not getting 1.5x strength modifier on damage.

This *might* change slightly for an offhand weapon that adds an extra mainhand attack (anyone remember if these are in vanilla IWD?) or if you are specifically building for AC (some weapons will add untyped AC which can stack with a shield spell).

Ranger doesn't change this much except letting you ignore feats, but feats aren't the problem with two weapon fighting in IWD2, martials run out of good things to spend feats on pretty quickly.

The EE Mod does add feats to get a 2nd and 3rd attack with dual wielding but its still kinda iffy imo.

I think IWD2 is itemized pretty well when it comes to daggers and short swords though. At least, compared to how the rest of item types in IWD2 are itemized (i.e. absolutely horribly).

EDIT: https://www.gamebanshee.com/icewinddaleii/equipment/shortswords.php

Short sword of flurry in the offhand for +1 attack, Brilliant Short Sword in the main hand might be a good combo. Ignoring target shield and armor bonuses should be a pretty good AB bonus that more than offsets the dual wielding AB penalty and gets your damage comparable to two hand. I have no idea if these weapons are guaranteed to find though.

 

[Spukrian]

In unmodded IWD2 the absolute maximum number of attacks per round is 5.

 

[Average Manatee]

Ohh, dang. That's not including haste though I believe? Other IE games let you get up to 10 with haste.

So the short sword of flurry is useless once you get to 4 primary hand attacks. And dual wielding probably isn't worth it without that, since adding a single off-hand attack with half strength bonus is kind of a joke.

 

[Spukrian]

It is sadly including haste.

 

[0sacred]

I'm looking for good paladin builds and Lilura's site has a paladin with 12 constitution. It doesn't say wether that's for HoF but knowing Lilura I would assume so. Is this going to work?

 

[Average Manatee]

Got a link to the build?

Con generally isn't that important compared to dex and str. On the other hand you can really dump charisma into the ground because smite is a useless pile of shit and saving throws are kind of a meme stat (past the early game you should be immune to anything that is going to fuck you if you fail a save and if you aren't then the other 5 out of 6 characters in the party are fucked and you die).

HoF builds are kinda bad for normal play because HoF assumes that you are gonna tank everything with summons or an 80 AC minmaxed tank.

 

[0sacred]

Got a link to the build?

https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2021/0...te-Evil-Light-of-Cera-Sumat-Holy-Avenger.html

Con generally isn't that important compared to dex and str. On the other hand you can really dump charisma into the ground because smite is a useless pile of shit and saving throws are kind of a meme stat (past the early game you should be immune to anything that is going to fuck you if you fail a save and if you aren't then the other 5 out of 6 characters in the party are fucked and you die).

It's a max Charisma build

is Smite not working? I never noticed it doing anything tbh

I've been wondering about saving throws, the "Ultimate Powergaming Party" faq on Gamefaqs has 18 Wisdom on a Fighter. It seemed strange to me but the author is convinced this is going to save you a lot of trouble.

 

[Butter]

Fucking 3E. Dumping CHA on a Paladin and 18 WIS Fighter...

 

[Average Manatee]

is Smite not working? I never noticed it doing anything tbh

The problem is that even if it works its one ATTACK per use, which is kind of a joke. At early levels where one hit might be a decent chunk of something's HP its alright (though its still only like +5 to your hit if you minmax cha), but later on when you have 5 APR and it takes dozens of hits to kill things its kind of a joke, not even worth your time to physically press the button and use. I'm not sure why she's maxing Charisma then. Wisdom is the paladin casting stat, not charisma, so its not like you're getting spellcasting. I haven't actually played paladin in IWD2 because they are kinda crap so maybe someone else can enlighten us if there's something we're missing or not in the class description.

Personally if I was going to build a paladin I'd rather have 20 strength for another +1 AB/+1.5 damage at all times than charisma for +1 AB for a handful of attacks per day. The problem though is that half orc favored class is barb, so if you wanted to multiclass to fighter for weapon specialization you'd take a penalty there.

So, assuming you want to dip fighter, not have ECL, and don't care about skill points, I'd go Shield Dwarf with either an 18/18/20/3/16/1 stat spread, or an 18/12/16/13/16/1 stat spread. The former would be running armorless with spirit armor, the latter using expertise and in heavy armor. Dwarves also get a helpful +2 to saves against spells (what a paladin would get from 14 charisma), along with +1 AB for the first third of the game. If you're fine not dipping fighter then go half orc though.

With ALL that said though, I'd just run a cleric instead. Clerics cast at their level while Paladins cast at half their level. This means that all of your buffs like Draw on Holy Might are stronger. Technically Paladin is a little better in melee if you buff them the same, but the Cleric can layer on more defensive buffs to stay alive better along with being a fully fledged full caster with nukes, DC spells, summons, domains, etc.

I guess Paladin gets Cera Sumat though, that's a pretty good sword. You can dip 1 level of paladin to use it though if you're lawful good

 

[Cael]

It is Lilura. I find xir's commentary as useful as tits on a bull, which is rather ironic.

The only reason for playing paladin in IWD2 is Cera Sumat and its associated nifty side quest, and even then, you only need 1 level in it. Pal 1/ Cleric x is a pretty good compromise, as I said before.

You also don't want your paladin leading the pack as paladins and monks have a nasty tendency to refuse rewards, IIRC.

 

[Brancaleone]

It is Lilura. I find xir's commentary as useful as tits on a bull, which is rather ironic.

EXCUSE ME, you must have missed the word "authoritative", in all its hundreds of occurrences.

[note to the reader: Power Word: Authoritative grants permanent immunity to any kind of criticism and ridicule, albeit only in the author's mind]

 

[0sacred]

After reading a few guides I've come to the conclusion HoF in IWD2 is retarded AF and I have no desire to play it.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Paladins aren't a great choice in IWD2. IWD2 start you at 10 in stats, and gives you a 16 point buy. Assuming Human Fighter with level 1 dip in Paladin, stat should be something like 15|12|14|8|8|16. Then put every ability upgrade into STR. All it really amounts to is trading 1 feat for +3 in all saves and access to that sword. Not a bad deal. 1 Pal/ X Cleric is probably better as Cael states, but your stat distribution gets more nuanced depending on if you favor spells or melee. Something min-maxed like 15|10|10|8|15|15 with your level up bonuses going +1 STR, +1 CHA, +3 WIS.

 

[Jigby]

IWD2 doesn't really have point buy system, there's no inflation. Also stats can be dumped all the way to 3 (or 1 in case of -2 penalties). So it's usually easy to dump 2 stats and raise the rest to ~18.

 

[Cael]

Paladins aren't a great choice in IWD2. IWD2 start you at 10 in stats, and gives you a 16 point buy. Assuming Human Fighter with level 1 dip in Paladin, stat should be something like 15|12|14|8|8|16. Then put every ability upgrade into STR. All it really amounts to is trading 1 feat for +3 in all saves and access to that sword. Not a bad deal. 1 Pal/ X Cleric is probably better as Cael states, but your stat distribution gets more nuanced depending on if you favor spells or melee. Something min-maxed like 15|10|10|8|15|15 with your level up bonuses going +1 STR, +1 CHA, +3 WIS.

You get 76 to distribute as you like (min 3), IIRC. Try 18/16/18/3/18/3. You still get 2 skill points per level as a human.

 

[0sacred]

Paladins aren't a great choice in IWD2. IWD2 start you at 10 in stats, and gives you a 16 point buy. Assuming Human Fighter with level 1 dip in Paladin, stat should be something like 15|12|14|8|8|16. Then put every ability upgrade into STR. All it really amounts to is trading 1 feat for +3 in all saves and access to that sword. Not a bad deal. 1 Pal/ X Cleric is probably better as Cael states, but your stat distribution gets more nuanced depending on if you favor spells or melee. Something min-maxed like 15|10|10|8|15|15 with your level up bonuses going +1 STR, +1 CHA, +3 WIS.

pretty much everyone dumps INT into oblivion on the paladin

 

[0sacred]

for those of you who play HoF, do you need to go into "Ultimate Powergaming Party" retard territory to play/enjoy it? Does it even make sense with a suboptimal party?

 

[Average Manatee]

HoF is easy if you just spam summons which are also buffed by the HoF difficulty bonuses. Animate undead in particular. It is very boring though.

 

[Jigby]

for those of you who play HoF, do you need to go into "Ultimate Powergaming Party" retard territory to play/enjoy it? Does it even make sense with a suboptimal party?

I don't really consider myself someone that "plays HoF", but I do remember 2 playthroughs.

One was a solo monk, where I attackmoved through the game with vampiric swords. It was mostly AFK - I let the game run in a window while doing something else.
The other playthrough was 1 level 30 sorceress + 5 level 1 sorcs at the start. The 5 sorcs were kept as xp mules throughout chapter 1. At the end of Chapter 1, I had 6 level ~30 sorcs with 50 Wailings/Mass Dominate etc. Needless to say, it was a breeze.

You don't need an "ultimate powergaming party" to play it. XP is cheap and you gain levels quickly. The UPP I think is designed with a normal play in mind - 6 sorcs with Mass Dominate is going to be stronger than whatever is in the guide.

I never played it completely with a level 1 party.

 

[0sacred]

for those of you who play HoF, do you need to go into "Ultimate Powergaming Party" retard territory to play/enjoy it? Does it even make sense with a suboptimal party?

I don't really consider myself someone that "plays HoF", but I do remember 2 playthroughs.

One was a solo monk, where I attackmoved through the game with vampiric swords. It was mostly AFK - I let the game run in a window while doing something else.
The other playthrough was 1 level 30 sorceress + 5 level 1 sorcs at the start. The 5 sorcs were kept as xp mules throughout chapter 1. At the end of Chapter 1, I had 6 level ~30 sorcs with 50 Wailings/Mass Dominate etc. Needless to say, it was a breeze.

You don't need an "ultimate powergaming party" to play it. XP is cheap and you gain levels quickly. The UPP I think is designed with a normal play in mind - 6 sorcs with Mass Dominate is going to be stronger than whatever is in the guide.

I never played it completely with a level 1 party.

This is interesting because I've read that you can't beat monsters' saves in HoF, so Mass Dominate would be useless. But that was a while ago and I guess the author wasn't very good at the game because he also said that you HAVE to hide behind summons and there's no way to melee anything.

Speaking of which, are enemy casters (both on normal and HoF) too strong for characters with weak saves to resist their spells, even if they have a high stat and feats like Iron Will?

 

[Jigby]

for those of you who play HoF, do you need to go into "Ultimate Powergaming Party" retard territory to play/enjoy it? Does it even make sense with a suboptimal party?

I don't really consider myself someone that "plays HoF", but I do remember 2 playthroughs.

One was a solo monk, where I attackmoved through the game with vampiric swords. It was mostly AFK - I let the game run in a window while doing something else.
The other playthrough was 1 level 30 sorceress + 5 level 1 sorcs at the start. The 5 sorcs were kept as xp mules throughout chapter 1. At the end of Chapter 1, I had 6 level ~30 sorcs with 50 Wailings/Mass Dominate etc. Needless to say, it was a breeze.

You don't need an "ultimate powergaming party" to play it. XP is cheap and you gain levels quickly. The UPP I think is designed with a normal play in mind - 6 sorcs with Mass Dominate is going to be stronger than whatever is in the guide.

I never played it completely with a level 1 party.

This is interesting because I've read that you can't beat monsters' saves in HoF, so Mass Dominate would be useless. But that was a while ago and I guess the author wasn't very good at the game because he also said that you HAVE to hide behind summons and there's no way to melee anything.

If you put everything into upping your spellcasting DC, you can just about get there with level 9 spells. Certainly with a sorceress, that has access to eagle's splendor as a stat bonus (in iwd2, not every stat has the appropriate stat raising spell, i.e. there's no fox's cunning). Cleric can get even a little bit higher, but clerics get mass dominate only as a domain spell... 1 cast. Sorceress can just retry, I don't remember precisely how many lvl9 castings you get with CHA30+ but certainly a lot more than 1. And then there are spells that don't have a saving throw, like Power Word: Blind.

 

[0sacred]

for those of you who play HoF, do you need to go into "Ultimate Powergaming Party" retard territory to play/enjoy it? Does it even make sense with a suboptimal party?

I don't really consider myself someone that "plays HoF", but I do remember 2 playthroughs.

One was a solo monk, where I attackmoved through the game with vampiric swords. It was mostly AFK - I let the game run in a window while doing something else.
The other playthrough was 1 level 30 sorceress + 5 level 1 sorcs at the start. The 5 sorcs were kept as xp mules throughout chapter 1. At the end of Chapter 1, I had 6 level ~30 sorcs with 50 Wailings/Mass Dominate etc. Needless to say, it was a breeze.

You don't need an "ultimate powergaming party" to play it. XP is cheap and you gain levels quickly. The UPP I think is designed with a normal play in mind - 6 sorcs with Mass Dominate is going to be stronger than whatever is in the guide.

I never played it completely with a level 1 party.

This is interesting because I've read that you can't beat monsters' saves in HoF, so Mass Dominate would be useless. But that was a while ago and I guess the author wasn't very good at the game because he also said that you HAVE to hide behind summons and there's no way to melee anything.

If you put everything into upping your spellcasting DC, you can just about get there with level 9 spells. Certainly with a sorceress, that has access to eagle's splendor as a stat bonus (in iwd2, not every stat has the appropriate stat raising spell, i.e. there's no fox's cunning).

interesting, so sorc is potentially better at CC? I already hold a grudge against wizards because they didn't manage to put in spell selection on level up for wizards.

 

[Jigby]

interesting, so sorc is potentially better at CC? I already hold a grudge against wizards because they didn't manage to put in spell selection on level up for wizards.

On normal it doesn't really matter, but in HoF, sure. Sorceress is going to have a higher spell DC and more spellcasts. And as you mention, there's no spell selection for wizards.

 

[Average Manatee]

Getting spells on level up is essential for HoF because your level will rapidly outpace the scrolls a wizard can find.