Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The Mass Effect 3/BioWare Thread

Jick Magger

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
5,667
Location
New Zealand
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria
If anything, I thought the fact that the prothean AI on the Asari homeworld was able to detect whether or not someone was indoctrinated (since it outright stated so and shut down in response to the arrival of Kai Leng) would outright disprove this.

I've heard people try to excuse this through some bizarre argument of "He's only partially indoctrinated so it didn't notice", which only really shows to me that all Indoctrination theory really is is a blanket excuse to try and hide all of Bioware's poorer writing decisions in the later games. Since the indoctrination process itself is fairly vague and not well explained in any of the games, you can just plop it over all the plot holes in the series and just say "Indoctrinated!". It's basically just a sci-fi equivalent to "It's magic, I don't have to explain shit".
 

Invictus

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
2,789
Location
Mexico
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Hey the indoctrination theory at least seemed like a fun way to justify Bioware's ineptness over the fact that the ending sucked.
Its like the people claiming that Elvis is alive...
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,894
If anything, I thought the fact that the prothean AI on the Asari homeworld was able to detect whether or not someone was indoctrinated (since it outright stated so and shut down in response to the arrival of Kai Leng) would outright disprove this.

I've heard people try to excuse this through some bizarre argument of "He's only partially indoctrinated so it didn't notice", which only really shows to me that all Indoctrination theory really is is a blanket excuse to try and hide all of Bioware's poorer writing decisions in the later games. Since the indoctrination process itself is fairly vague and not well explained in any of the games, you can just plop it over all the plot holes in the series and just say "Indoctrinated!". It's basically just a sci-fi equivalent to "It's magic, I don't have to explain shit".
But you werent even close to being indoctrinated at the asari world, you just had the early signs of being so in occasional nightmares. Ninja boy was indoctrinated.
And it is fairly well explained, either tru datalogs, the bug queen, etc. Every sign being present there, the fact that they forced the dlc into being an important piece of the third game when it literally brought nothing but the possibility of an indoctrinated shepard. Its just too easy to say yes to that theory because it has strong basis, when the reasons for saying the opposite are weak as fuck.

Xor As i said, the lead writter had complete and total creative freedom, they didnt even knew what the ending was going to be like at release, they didnt care, the dude made them tons of money and they trusted him.
As for companies getting sued for no reason, granted, its true, but its a matter of image, a lot of those companies are small, indie and players dont give a fuck. bioware is big, had a lot of expectations hanging on their shoulders and their whole value literally comes from their renown as good writers (as fucking funny as that may be). Now add revolting writing to false advertising into their biggest title ever, and it does not look pretty.

As for IT, name shit that debunked it before the extended cut. give me a list, something as big as the whole world around sheppard shifting a bizzarro nonsensical dreamlike thing that was described before by in game documentation and interactions. Extended cut was just a bandaid to prevent further loses.
 

Xor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
9,345
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
But you werent even close to being indoctrinated at the asari world, you just had the early signs of being so in occasional nightmares. Ninja boy was indoctrinated.
:nocountryforshitposters:

We see several indoctrinated characters in the series. Some of them seem to act normally except that they're working toward the reapers' ends, and some are little more than zombies. But the fact is, we never see indoctrination from the perspective of the victim, nor is it really clear what goes on in their heads, so we don't know what it would look like.

From the codex entry on indoctrination:
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears.
These are all so vaguely worded that you could attribute anything to them. I have stress-related headaches and tinnitus, I must be getting indoctrinated!

As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences.
As far as I remember, Shepard never had feelings of being watched or hallucinations of ghostly presences, unless you think a completely ordinary-looking kid as being "ghostly". And please don't say "but the dreams", as hallucinations are by definition not dreams.

A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.
Shepard never did any of this, that we saw. You can argue unreliable narrator all you want, but if we're going that route I could make a much more convincing argument that Shepard was injured when he was buried under rubble at the end of the first game and the entire rest of the series was just his coma dreams. Hey, it explains away pretty much all the plot holes in the series, so it's obviously it must be true!

Beyond that, every case of indoctrination we saw in the series occurred with people who were in reapers or near reaper artifacts. Shepard wasn't near a reaper long enough to actually be indoctrinated any time during ME3. Unless you think someone can be partially indoctrinated and then set loose for the process to finish on its own, but not only is there no evidence of that whatsoever, it also directly contradicts how indoctrination is described to actually work.

As i said, the lead writter had complete and total creative freedom, they didnt even knew what the ending was going to be like at release, they didnt care, the dude made them tons of money and they trusted him.
You're not making any sense. The lead writer had complete creative freedom, so they wouldn't let him do the game with the IT as the plot? Or did the other writers want to do the IT and the lead writer came in and stopped them? I think it's pretty naive to assume that the higher-ups wouldn't be aware of what the game's plot was at every stage of development. EA isn't exactly famous for their hands off style of management when it comes to a game's content.

I still don't buy your reasoning about changing the game's plot based on legal fears, by the way. Not only is there no real world evidence the game's plot was changed from the indoctrination theory to something else, but there's no evidence EA ever had legal concerns about ME3's content, or that Bioware was ever considering trying to release a 4th mass effect game continuing the story. Your entire reasoning for the plot to be changed is nothing but pure conjecture, not supported by any real world facts and built around the myriad of inconsistencies and plot holes ME3 is littered with because it's a half-finished half-assed game made by hacks with delusions of grandeur.

And that's why the indoctrination theory is bullshit.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,894
Shepars wasnt indoctrinated, he fought it, for months, slowly messing with his mind. Yeah, the boy was an hallucination, unless you believe in teleporting brats besides space magic that is stablished 5 minutes before the end of the game, or psychic holograms that take the form of your darkest deepest fears along with visions of an impossible escape from an all desctructive magical force. And this is right after shepard shoots Anderson and is wounded in exactly the same place for no reason.
:retarded:
The Rachni queen talked about the oily figures that shepard saw, which were a dead giveaway. Shepard never betrayed his friends because he was too strong to simply be indoctrinated, and that strenght takes him into the final fight. gravely wounded, with all hope lost his will falters, and thats when the conversion kicks in, and the only way to avoid it is to fight it with every fiber of your being, both green and blue where about what had tempted Saren and Tim, red was about resisting them no matter what.
It is also stablished that indoctrination can work on a long term, and the slower it is the more time it allows the victim to...
Fuck it, i just found a video, watch it if you want to waste more time on the stupid franchise, i be done. I really dont care about what you retards chose to think or not.



PS: Bioware writers are bad, they are not infinitely stupid. How could they make more mistakes on the last 15 minutes of the final game than in the entire trilogy.
 

Q

Augur
Patron
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
199
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2
And that's why I love ME3 ending. It's bioware-bad as it is, yes. But it raises discussions, all those indoctrination theories and others. ME3 is rather interesting, sometimes in butthurt ways, big ending for banal shit boring ME1 and console popamole ME2. Overall it's a nice interactive B-movie, I think.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,401
My indoctrination theory:
EA flagship (Developer Devourer I) parks over planet Bioware and send a subliminal message: Mass Effect 3 will start on earth for marketing reasons. Illussive man and space ninja are going to be main villains for marketing reasons. The plot will be about saving earth for marketing reasons.There need to be a boy dead for Marketing reasons. Focus groups are always right.

People on the Bioware planet: Thanks EA for giving us creative freedom and allowing us to make a great game. We had a great idea, Mass Effect 3 will start on earth, a boy will die then you save the earth and the Illusive man will be the end villain. Thanks for giving us creative freedom, we love you.
 

Dreaad

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
5,604
Location
Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
Sued over not providing the expected story =DDDDDD.

As for the ending of Mass Effect 3, that was an absolute classic. Almost as good the "then you wake up and it is was all a dream" ending. Space ghosts and machine gods who decide to have a chat with the chosen one :roll:
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
Suing for storyline seems unlikely to succeed - Bioware never stated that they were using a particular ending, and the promises they did make 'your choices count' are vague enough to not amount to anything. It's like the woman who tried to sue the movie studio who made 'Drive' because the film wasn't actually a car racing film like the Fast and the Furious.

But more broadly, gaming has got a hell of a free ride (compared to other industries) when it comes to misleading and deceptive conduct, largely because consumers haven't known their rights, those that do take legal recourse tend to be nutters suing over not getting the story ending they wanted, and fair trading prosecutors who don't understand the games. But they're getting a lot more conscious of this than they once were. Remember when it wasn't 'that' uncommon for a game box to blatantly promise something like multiplayer and leave it out completely, or post recommended specs that were utterly inadequate? Now that's something you could easily sue over (though there'd be no point for an individual gamer - at most you'd get a portion of the purchase price back; if a fair trading prosecutor took it up though, the company could get hurt).
 

Dreaad

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
5,604
Location
Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
Suing for storyline seems unlikely to succeed - Bioware never stated that they were using a particular ending, and the promises they did make 'your choices count' are vague enough to not amount to anything. It's like the woman who tried to sue the movie studio who made 'Drive' because the film wasn't actually a car racing film like the Fast and the Furious.

But more broadly, gaming has got a hell of a free ride (compared to other industries) when it comes to misleading and deceptive conduct, largely because consumers haven't known their rights, those that do take legal recourse tend to be nutters suing over not getting the story ending they wanted, and fair trading prosecutors who don't understand the games. But they're getting a lot more conscious of this than they once were. Remember when it wasn't 'that' uncommon for a game box to blatantly promise something like multiplayer and leave it out completely, or post recommended specs that were utterly inadequate? Now that's something you could easily sue over (though there'd be no point for an individual gamer - at most you'd get a portion of the purchase price back; if a fair trading prosecutor took it up though, the company could get hurt).
This shit still happens. It's not uncommon even now for big publishers to release completely broken buggy games and make vague promises to fix their shit with patches over an unspecified period of time. Look at Rome 2, or Colonial marines. That's not even mentioning the crap indie developers can pull, releasing alpha games with malware attached then going out of business before anything is "fixed".
 

dryan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
1,443
It's been what, 2 years since the ME3 debacle? All I remember was that the indoctrination theory not only required a lot of wishful thinking and confirmation bias, but even if you were willing to do all the mental gymnastics needed to accept it, you still ended up with something far worse than the shitty ending taken at face value.
 

StaticSpine

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
3,232
Location
Moscow
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Actually, this Indoctrination Theory Documentary video makes more sense and is made better than the ME3 extended cut DLC.
 

Coyote

Arcane
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
1,149
Sued over not providing the expected story =DDDDDD.

"Your honor, at this point the plaintiff moves to submit People’s exhibit A into evidence.”

"You may proceed."

vlE2cf0.gif
 

Jetblack

Literate
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
16
Well i just took work time off to play ME3 for the first time, having been very fond of ME1 and ME2. I thought ME3 was pretty good other than the depressing ending. Yes i am one of those who wants a happy ending to my escapist fantasies. I do not see the point of trying to stay alive the whole game to be written off like a redundant soap actor at the end of the series.

Leaving aside the ridiculousness of this lawsuit against Bioware, for me, the sin Bioware committed, and why i think so many people got upset is that they used a really crap justification at end of series to "move on", regardless of how all those folks emotionally invested in Shepard. That´s the real killer, that it feels he dies no matter your ending. If i want that sort of post game depression I´ll just go spend some time on a terminal patient ward at the local hospital.

I think the whole space boy narration bit is almost an easter-egg because they use the same rationale about the reapers sort of weeding the organic garden to keep them from becoming too chaotic, as Bioware´s commercial decision to off the Shepard series and pretty well any connection to it.

Bioware has made it absolutely clear...you are to forget Shepard, move along, nothing to see here. And for sure this decision to end Shepard was Bioware´s and theirs alone. I suspect EA were against killing off Shepard. Would Apple kill off the i-phone while there is still huge demand for it? Or howabout heinz stops making baked beans. Its an insane proposition. So there must have been really strong reasons to kill Shepard arc off and i reckon it was the development would be chaotic going forward dealing with everyones LI or whatever.

Easier to wipe the slate, just like the Reapers. But hey i still think on the whole its one of the greatest series in gaming history. They created a very cool, sexy universe, which at times felt alive, but i still think killing off Shepard in such a permanent way was a big mistake. Its going to be really hard to resurrect him in the future, and if ME 4 is a flop, EA will demand a new game with Shepard, no matter how crazy that sounds now.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,894
Actually, this Indoctrination Theory Documentary video makes more sense and is made better than the ME3 extended cut DLC.
The bar isnt set very high. They took an uncompromising pure faggotry posture. Mass effect 4 will have to settle things once and for all tho.

IT was their obvious intent, too many things done deliberately to be lazy design, if it was they wouldnt even exist in the game to begin with.
 
Last edited:

Caim

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
16,236
Location
Dutchland
Bioware has made it absolutely clear...you are to forget Shepard, move along, nothing to see here. And for sure this decision to end Shepard was Bioware´s and theirs alone. I suspect EA were against killing off Shepard. Would Apple kill off the i-phone while there is still huge demand for it? Or howabout heinz stops making baked beans. Its an insane proposition. So there must have been really strong reasons to kill Shepard arc off and i reckon it was the development would be chaotic going forward dealing with everyones LI or whatever.
Nah, it just means that in the next space tavern we'll meet a stranger named Bommander Bhepard.
 

Tytus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
3,619
Location
Mazovia
Sued over not providing the expected story =DDDDDD.

"Your honor, at this point the plaintiff moves to submit People’s exhibit A into evidence.”

"You may proceed."

vlE2cf0.gif



To be fair killing of Kal'Reegar in the e-mail section when they made such fuss about him dying or suriving in ME2, was kinda shitty.
But turning EDI into sex-bot was also kinda shitty.
And adding Javik as a DLC so he didn't have any impact on the story was shitty too.
Hmmm... I'm begining to see a pattern here.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom