The Mass Effect 3/BioWare Thread

[Xor]

Bioware's core fanbase are obsessed with romances. I think they should just double down and start making dating sims.

 

[Caim]

To me, the thing that BioWare does best is not story

I kind of like Gaider. He's an honest man at heart.

I have seen BioWare described as the anti-Bethesda: one writes characters that are sometimes interesting but crap stories, while the other writes stories that are sometimes interesting but crap characters.

I shudder to think what were to happen if those two meet.

Bioware's core fanbase are obsessed with romances. I think they should just double down and start making dating sims.

F2P dating sims, $2,50 to bed your husbando/waifu, $25 for a dozen rides. $60 season pass for three new* characters with four free rides each.

(* New character may also include old characters at a later point in their lives and/or after a traumatic, edgy, dark and deep event. Rides you buy for them at an earlier point of their lives do not carry over.)

If they really go this way, they should ask our old friend Jennifer Hepler if she would like to help, because she is very good at writing romance. Especially gay romance.

 

[Xor]

The difference I see between Bioware, Bethesda, and Obsidian is that Bioware tries to make interesting (and emotionally engaging(tm)) characters, Bethesda focuses on the experience (exploration, player "freedom", etc), and Obsidian tries to write interesting stories. As an unapologetic storyfag I obviously give Obsidian more slack for trying to write a good story and failing than I do Bethesda for writing a crap story and filling it with characters that are supposed to be interesting but aren't. I tend to avoid Bethesda games altogether because they're incompetent and I really, really hated Oblivion.

 

[kris]

I have seen BioWare described as the anti-Bethesda: one writes characters that are sometimes interesting but crap stories, while the other writes stories that are sometimes interesting but crap characters.

Bioware have well fleshed out characters, but not interesting IMO. To many of their characters are built around a singular thing.

 

[Decado]

Jesus Bioware is terrible.

I have no problem with romances of any kind. What bugs me is that they seem to be coming at the expense of MAKING A GOOD FUCKING GAME. And that's not even all of it, because from a 3rd person, cover-shooter PoV, ME3 was pretty damn good. But Bioware's writing has been absolutely fucking horrible for the last 10 years. Their stories are boring, regurgitated garbage and their characters have been a joke. They think quirkiness = depth, and that if they include enough shout outs to social justice ("Hey, we have a flamboyantly gay character! We are tolerant!") that they are somehow absolved of the responsibility of making interesting characters. For a company that prides itself on their "stories," they sure can't tell one to save their lives.

I don't have anything against David Gaider personally, and he was involved in one of my favorite RPGs of all time. But his well has been pumping dry for the last decade, Bioware, so maybe you should let someone else step up and take a crack at things before you are making dating simulators with the occasional sword fight/laser battle.

 

[Valestein]

They "shouldn't" remove romances altogether(for them it's become too much of a selling point and they can't risk the alienation) but they should limit it to a few like Jade Empire and ME1 and do a thorough crackdown of their BSN(ex. removing romance sections and the sig function).

But that would remove all the fun from ridiculing their games and fanbase.

 

[sea]

Jesus Bioware is terrible.

I have no problem with romances of any kind. What bugs me is that they seem to be coming at the expense of MAKING A GOOD FUCKING GAME. And that's not even all of it, because from a 3rd person, cover-shooter PoV, ME3 was pretty damn good. But Bioware's writing has been absolutely fucking horrible for the last 10 years. Their stories are boring, regurgitated garbage and their characters have been a joke. They think quirkiness = depth, and that if they include enough shout outs to social justice ("Hey, we have a flamboyantly gay character! We are tolerant!") that they are somehow absolved of the responsibility of making interesting characters. For a company that prides itself on their "stories," they sure can't tell one to save their lives.

I don't have anything against David Gaider personally, and he was involved in one of my favorite RPGs of all time. But his well has been pumping dry for the last decade, Bioware, so maybe you should let someone else step up and take a crack at things before you are making dating simulators with the occasional sword fight/laser battle.

The issue, at least in my opinion, is that BioWare seem to feel compelled to make romances that hit a wide variety of demographics and character archetypes, instead of having romance evolve naturally out of the possibilities of the story. For them it's a box they need to check (which their fans do appreciate), not something that has narrative value to the story being told.

 

[Decado]

Jesus Bioware is terrible.

I have no problem with romances of any kind. What bugs me is that they seem to be coming at the expense of MAKING A GOOD FUCKING GAME. And that's not even all of it, because from a 3rd person, cover-shooter PoV, ME3 was pretty damn good. But Bioware's writing has been absolutely fucking horrible for the last 10 years. Their stories are boring, regurgitated garbage and their characters have been a joke. They think quirkiness = depth, and that if they include enough shout outs to social justice ("Hey, we have a flamboyantly gay character! We are tolerant!") that they are somehow absolved of the responsibility of making interesting characters. For a company that prides itself on their "stories," they sure can't tell one to save their lives.

I don't have anything against David Gaider personally, and he was involved in one of my favorite RPGs of all time. But his well has been pumping dry for the last decade, Bioware, so maybe you should let someone else step up and take a crack at things before you are making dating simulators with the occasional sword fight/laser battle.

The issue, at least in my opinion, is that BioWare seem to feel compelled to make romances that hit a wide variety of demographics and character archetypes, instead of having romance evolve naturally out of the possibilities of the story. For them it's a box they need to check (which their fans do appreciate), not something that has narrative value to the story being told.

Exactly. They jumped the shark.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Jesus Bioware is terrible.

I have no problem with romances of any kind. What bugs me is that they seem to be coming at the expense of MAKING A GOOD FUCKING GAME. And that's not even all of it, because from a 3rd person, cover-shooter PoV, ME3 was pretty damn good. But Bioware's writing has been absolutely fucking horrible for the last 10 years. Their stories are boring, regurgitated garbage and their characters have been a joke. They think quirkiness = depth, and that if they include enough shout outs to social justice ("Hey, we have a flamboyantly gay character! We are tolerant!") that they are somehow absolved of the responsibility of making interesting characters. For a company that prides itself on their "stories," they sure can't tell one to save their lives.

I don't have anything against David Gaider personally, and he was involved in one of my favorite RPGs of all time. But his well has been pumping dry for the last decade, Bioware, so maybe you should let someone else step up and take a crack at things before you are making dating simulators with the occasional sword fight/laser battle.

The issue, at least in my opinion, is that BioWare seem to feel compelled to make romances that hit a wide variety of demographics and character archetypes, instead of having romance evolve naturally out of the possibilities of the story. For them it's a box they need to check (which their fans do appreciate), not something that has narrative value to the story being told.

Exactly. They humped the shark.

 

[Decado]

I look at it this way: In every instance where Bioware mentions "romance options!" or "your ability to have a romance with anyone you want" or "deep, satisfying romance quest lines!" just replace the word "romance" with "friendship." If their proclamations don't then sound fucking absurd, carry on I guess. But if bragging about your "friendship options" or "your ability to have a friendship with anyone you want" or "deep, satisfying friendship quest lines!" sounds completely ridiculous and horribly overwrought, like the most try-hard shit you ever heard of? Well then maybe there's a problem.

 

[Valestein]

Jesus Bioware is terrible.

I have no problem with romances of any kind. What bugs me is that they seem to be coming at the expense of MAKING A GOOD FUCKING GAME. And that's not even all of it, because from a 3rd person, cover-shooter PoV, ME3 was pretty damn good. But Bioware's writing has been absolutely fucking horrible for the last 10 years. Their stories are boring, regurgitated garbage and their characters have been a joke. They think quirkiness = depth, and that if they include enough shout outs to social justice ("Hey, we have a flamboyantly gay character! We are tolerant!") that they are somehow absolved of the responsibility of making interesting characters. For a company that prides itself on their "stories," they sure can't tell one to save their lives.

I don't have anything against David Gaider personally, and he was involved in one of my favorite RPGs of all time. But his well has been pumping dry for the last decade, Bioware, so maybe you should let someone else step up and take a crack at things before you are making dating simulators with the occasional sword fight/laser battle.

The issue, at least in my opinion, is that BioWare seem to feel compelled to make romances that hit a wide variety of demographics and character archetypes, instead of having romance evolve naturally out of the possibilities of the story. For them it's a box they need to check (which their fans do appreciate), not something that has narrative value to the story being told.

That ends up creating larger problems for them down the line with fans demanding more and more romancables and of different kinds. Take Mass Effect for example, once they opened the pandora's box of alien sex in the second game(there was SOME rationale for why Asari dating was viable in 1) with Garrus and Tali(which was ridiculous and juvenile pandering) then you end up with people demanding Krogans,Vorcha and god knows what else as waifus/manfus. The team wouldn't have any real standing against those requests either, since those other alien species aren't more biologically alien and less sexually compatible than a Turian or Quarian.

 

[DalekFlay]

I'd be fine with the romances, or even impressed, if they evolved organically based on choices. Instead you just click the romance button when it pops up in dialog, which is super lame and feels like a mini-game for sex scenes even worse than Witcher's cards did.

Bioware loves to cut features entirely rather than fix them though, so I expect every DA4 character to be asexual if people complain about DA3's romances.

 

[Valestein]

I'd be fine with the romances, or even impressed, if they evolved organically based on choices. Instead you just click the romance button when it pops up in dialog, which is super lame and feels like a mini-game for sex scenes even worse than Witcher's cards did.

Bioware loves to cut features entirely rather than fix them though, so I expect every DA4 character to be asexual if people complain about DA3's romances.

Yeah, I'd be nice if certain romances were restricted based on race, alignment, choices,etc. Of course, this wouldn't fly with Bioware's degenerate fanbase.

 

[Caim]

I'd be fine with the romances, or even impressed, if they evolved organically based on choices. Instead you just click the romance button when it pops up in dialog, which is super lame and feels like a mini-game for sex scenes even worse than Witcher's cards did.

Bioware loves to cut features entirely rather than fix them though, so I expect every DA4 character to be asexual if people complain about DA3's romances.

Yeah, I'd be nice if certain romances were restricted based on race, alignment, choices,etc. Of course, this wouldn't fly with Bioware's degenerate fanbase.

Which is funny, given that those are true choices and consequences.

 

[Delterius]

The issue, at least in my opinion, is that BioWare seem to feel compelled to make romances that hit a wide variety of demographics and character archetypes, instead of having romance evolve naturally out of the possibilities of the story. For them it's a box they need to check (which their fans do appreciate), not something that has narrative value to the story being told.

Agreed with the need to distribute waifus to as many people as possible, disagree with the disregard for its narrative value.

It is kinda natural that romances were an isolated feature for BioWare. After all, it all began with how they incorporated something their own fans modded into their games. And, besides, Romances used to be a mindblowingly new things for a lot of people so it had value on its own. But the tendency is for these things to evolve.

You see, its like what you were talking about Dragon Age 2 a few months ago. For all its shit, it is one BioWare game where they attempted a kind of thematic consistency across the board. Everything in the game turns around magical ethics (or whatever) and the Mage X Templar issue. And so do many of the the companions, choosing one over the other for a Romance means taking a stand about Magic in one way or another.

Unfortunately, there are still random characters who aren't as well integrated into the overarching plot and whose romance was put there in order to create one more archetype - just like in the wise words of the writting team, "crazy up against the wall or comely girl next door". Not to mention the whole no one has an actual sexual orientation deal so that they can have sex with whatever PC you cook up.

It may all sound like nitpicking, but I think its kind of important. I don't think most people either need or despise Romance in videogames. I myself am merely open to that possibility and will follow it whenever its interesting enough in the sense of the plot. Like in MoTB where a potential love interest isn't exactly an ideal of beauty and, yet, it all made sense. So I accepted her confession and the story was better for it. The same, I think, can be said for Dragon Age 2, even thouh most design decisions, I think, hamper it.

 

[DalekFlay]

Yeah, I'd be nice if certain romances were restricted based on race, alignment, choices,etc. Of course, this wouldn't fly with Bioware's degenerate fanbase.

"I'm at the bar, I've bought this woman two drinks and complimented her outfit but she still won't come back to my place and lick my asshole. I don't understand what I am doing wrong."

 

[Caim]

Unfortunately, there are still random characters who aren't as well integrated into the overarching plot and whose romance was put there in order to create one more archetype - just like in the wise words of the writting team, "crazy up against the wall or comely girl next door". Not to mention the whole no one has an actual sexual orientation deal so that they can have sex with whatever PC you cook up.

It may all sound like nitpicking, but I think its kind of important. I don't think most people either need or despise Romance in videogames. I myself am merely open to that possibility and will follow it whenever its interesting enough in the sense of the plot. Like in MoTB where a potential love interest isn't exactly an ideal of beauty and, yet, it all made sense. So I accepted her confession and the story was better for it. The same, I think, can be said for Dragon Age 2, even thouh most design decisions, I think, hamper it.

Bioware does not write characters. They write archetypes. Cute younger girl with a crush? Tali/Merril. Troubled cute boy? Thane/the male elves from DA1 DA2. Ice queen who eventually warms up to you(r cock)? Miranda/Morrigan. And so on, and so on.

What you said about a romance having to feel natural and part of the game instead of tacked on and not really doing anything reminds me of Yahtzee's story on why he romanced Anders in DA2: Because it felt natural. Here's his take:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...n/8768-Roleplaying-Homosexual-in-Dragon-Age-2

 

[Xor]

We can't do that; there's still DA3 to provide us with pages and pages of lulz.

 

[Jaesun]

Jaesun now that the incline has finally arrived full force, can we finally retardo this popamole shit threads?

If it were up to me, hell yes this shit would be in retardo.

And good riddance.

 

[Lhynn]

yeah, retardo this shit, been a long time since i played a game as fun as M&M 10. barely starting tho, it can still be shit.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Eh, keep it around for lulz value.

 

[Space Satan]

Damn Toaster from New Vegas Old World blues had moce personality than any Bioware character.

 

[theSavant]

Once upon a time I heard all these rumors raving about Bioware games (except the codex of course), and when I finally played one it was bland as fuck. So yes, agreed with the toaster.

 

[racofer]

There are no "plot-holes" or "bad writing".

This is my reply to this topic:

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12118984

Read the main post on that thread, and you will then understand my reply. I thought it deserved it's own thread for some reason :D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You guys underestimate Bioware too much...
Everyone blames "Bioware's bad writing" on "plot-holes".
We all know that Bioware can produce AMAZING writing - we know this from playing Mass Effect 1 and ME2, and ALL (yes, ALL) of ME3. What leads you to believe that Bioware suddenly started writing horribly for the last 15/20 minutes of the game? They WEREN'T writing horribly - they were writing BRILLIANTLY.
The OP is a fool, there are a LOAD of clues that Shepard is becoming Indoctrinated throughout the entire course of the game. And these "plot-holes" you speak of during the end of the game? They are NOT plot-holes, they are cleverly written clues pointing towards the fact that Shepard was in fact indoctrinated. Do you really think the people who wrote the Mass Effect trilogy would be stupid enough to have these "huge plot-holes"? Again, not plot-holes - clues.
---
And the main topic of discussion in the thread... the breath scene. Again, Bioware's writers are nowhere near the level of stupidity needed to create such a HUGE plot-hole. They were smart and creative enough to write the entire lore for Mass Effect and everything within the game, they would not just stick a breath scene on the end for no reason. It's not just a breath scene, again, it is clues that Shepard was indoctrinated. I honestly can't believe you think any writers in the world would write someone falling from space, landing on Earth and surviving after already being shot and hit by a laser beam.
---
So, to sum up...
There are no plot-holes in Mass Effect 3 - they are IT clues.
The writers are not stupid enough to write things that don't make sense.
The breath scene was not just a breath scene - it was obvious the setting was Earth, after Shepard got hit by Harbinger's laser - and he had been dreaming that whole time.
---
I wish you idiots would just look at what's staring you in the face and acknowledge it. You'll see when the EC comes out.

Ok, who posted that?

 

[Delterius]

Why are you so hopeful that this is a troll? This is average BSN.