The Mass Effect 3/BioWare Thread

[Zeriel]

Yeah, considering that was written before the extended cut came out, that's exactly what you'd expect from a delusional fanboy. I only wish I could see the look on his face when the "definitive edition" that came out showed him it was all intended to be shit all along, no indoctrination, just lazy writers phoning it in.

 

[racofer]

 

[Valestein]

Yeah, considering that was written before the extended cut came out, that's exactly what you'd expect from a delusional fanboy. I only wish I could see the look on his face when the "definitive edition" that came out showed him it was all intended to be shit all along, no indoctrination, just lazy writers phoning it in.

Actually, there were still a bunch of IT whackjobs like that spewing the same shit after the EC and even claiming that had more "clues" in it.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Yeah, considering that was written before the extended cut came out, that's exactly what you'd expect from a delusional fanboy. I only wish I could see the look on his face when the "definitive edition" that came out showed him it was all intended to be shit all along, no indoctrination, just lazy writers phoning it in.

Actually, there were still a bunch of IT whackjobs like that spewing the same shit after the EC and even claiming that had more "clues" in it.

Didn't one of the writers do an interview, where he said that they had actually played around with the idea of Shepherd being indoctrinated, and that they'd written test drafts incorporating the idea, but then ditched it? Even that actually undercuts the whole EC thing, in that it illustrates how Bioware would have actually done a 'shephard is indoctrinated' arc - i.e. with a generic mid-game that's bland enough to be remapped onto whatever interpretation they want ('shall we say that all this just happened in Shephard's head?' 'maybe, I'll raise it with Bob and Sarah at the design meeting - no rush, it isn't like we have to change any of the content'). The idea that Bioware would drop subtle hints throughout the game is just delusional.

If they were doing IT, it would be like KoTOR (notice how little of KoTOR they'd have to change if they had decided to ditch the 'you are Revan' twist?) - a couple of totally unsubtle cinematics punctuating 'plot chapters', a few genuinely subtle hints in dialogue (changing 1 line of dialogue is an acceptable and expected cost, so there's much more room for it), and then a 'big reveal' before you find out the truth and get your action-hero ending.

It's not even just a Bioware thing. The kind of 'hidden clue' storyline the IT fans want is almost universally rejected by designers. The only exception I can think of is the team that did Pathologic and The Void (Troika's liked their 'unanswered mysteries', e.g. the half-ogre quest in Arcanum and Bloodlines' suggestions that there's something unusual about the PC's bloodline, but they're far less central to the plot and in Bloodlines it seems likely it's the left-overs of a partly implemented story component that was cut for budget reasons). Crpg designers are already worried that they'll have worked for ages on a particular mechanic/class/quest only for 90% of the gamers to overlook it. In any plot-oriented AAA game, they're expecting their writers to communicate the material to the player - withholding key information even after the game has finished (like making Shephard indoctrinated, but only telling the player through a series of subtle clues and an ending that maybe 10% of the fanbase will interpret 'correctly') is the last thing they'd permit.

Edit: Now if only game writers could learn how to write narratives that organically create tension, instead of relying on withholding information to create a false mystery, throughout the rest of the game. Out of the last 10 games you played, how many relied on hiding the true stakes/motivations from you for most of the game? Waaayyy too many. (by 'withholding information', I don't mean having to discover whodunnit, and working out the agendas of different characters, when you're solving a murder. I'm talking about withholding the fact that you're solving a fucking muder to start with.)

 

[DraQ]

They gave Jack a goatee in the latest Mass Effect branded toilet paper.

Jesus Bioware is terrible.

I have no problem with romances of any kind. What bugs me is that they seem to be coming at the expense of MAKING A GOOD FUCKING GAME. And that's not even all of it, because from a 3rd person, cover-shooter PoV, ME3 was pretty damn good. But Bioware's writing has been absolutely fucking horrible for the last 10 years. Their stories are boring, regurgitated garbage and their characters have been a joke. They think quirkiness = depth, and that if they include enough shout outs to social justice ("Hey, we have a flamboyantly gay character! We are tolerant!") that they are somehow absolved of the responsibility of making interesting characters. For a company that prides itself on their "stories," they sure can't tell one to save their lives.

I don't have anything against David Gaider personally, and he was involved in one of my favorite RPGs of all time. But his well has been pumping dry for the last decade, Bioware, so maybe you should let someone else step up and take a crack at things before you are making dating simulators with the occasional sword fight/laser battle.

Humping dry, you say...

Bioware does not write characters. They write archetypes.

You don't *write* archetypes. You can merely recycle them.

 

[Valestein]

Yeah, considering that was written before the extended cut came out, that's exactly what you'd expect from a delusional fanboy. I only wish I could see the look on his face when the "definitive edition" that came out showed him it was all intended to be shit all along, no indoctrination, just lazy writers phoning it in.

Actually, there were still a bunch of IT whackjobs like that spewing the same shit after the EC and even claiming that had more "clues" in it.

Didn't one of the writers do an interview, where he said that they had actually played around with the idea of Shepherd being indoctrinated, and that they'd written test drafts incorporating the idea, but then ditched it? Even that actually undercuts the whole EC thing, in that it illustrates how Bioware would have actually done a 'shephard is indoctrinated' arc - i.e. with a generic mid-game that's bland enough to be remapped onto whatever interpretation they want ('shall we say that all this just happened in Shephard's head?' 'maybe, I'll raise it with Bob and Sarah at the design meeting - no rush, it isn't like we have to change any of the content'). The idea that Bioware would drop subtle hints throughout the game is just delusional.

If they were doing IT, it would be like KoTOR (notice how little of KoTOR they'd have to change if they had decided to ditch the 'you are Revan' twist?) - a couple of totally unsubtle cinematics punctuating 'plot chapters', a few genuinely subtle hints in dialogue (changing 1 line of dialogue is an acceptable and expected cost, so there's much more room for it), and then a 'big reveal' before you find out the truth and get your action-hero ending.

It's not even just a Bioware thing. The kind of 'hidden clue' storyline the IT fans want is almost universally rejected by designers. The only exception I can think of is the team that did Pathologic and The Void (Troika's liked their 'unanswered mysteries', e.g. the half-ogre quest in Arcanum and Bloodlines' suggestions that there's something unusual about the PC's bloodline, but they're far less central to the plot and in Bloodlines it seems likely it's the left-overs of a partly implemented story component that was cut for budget reasons). Crpg designers are already worried that they'll have worked for ages on a particular mechanic/class/quest only for 90% of the gamers to overlook it. In any plot-oriented AAA game, they're expecting their writers to communicate the material to the player - withholding key information even after the game has finished (like making Shephard indoctrinated, but only telling the player through a series of subtle clues and an ending that maybe 10% of the fanbase will interpret 'correctly') is the last thing they'd permit.

Edit: Now if only game writers could learn how to write narratives that organically create tension, instead of relying on withholding information to create a false mystery, throughout the rest of the game. Out of the last 10 games you played, how many relied on hiding the true stakes/motivations from you for most of the game? Waaayyy too many. (by 'withholding information', I don't mean having to discover whodunnit, and working out the agendas of different characters, when you're solving a murder. I'm talking about withholding the fact that you're solving a fucking muder to start with.)

Yes.

Thing is, facts and sense don't factor into the IT. It's delusional biodrone grasping at straws in a feeble hope for a "get out of bad endings" free card. The current remnants of IT have even moved the goal post to ME4 or 5 for the "reveal" (LOL).

 

[Lhynn]

The IT is true, they didnt aknowledge it because it woulda meant legal problems. Stupid as it sounds, if it had been true then the game would have not been complete and the story arc would have not been finished, meaning they sold an incomplete product meaning shit woulda gotten bad.
Extended cut was there to subvert it, an ass pull to leave the sheep content, but they wrote themselves into a corner.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

The IT made sense at first because the ending was so fucking horrible and did not make any sense at all. Any alternative sounded more credible than what we actually got.

But the EC put the whole thing to bed, Bioware doubled down in their "ORGANICS AND MACHINES MUST ALWAYS FIGHT, LALALALALALA" mindset and much of the IT no longer held up to scrutiny. I remember a big part of that theory was that there were trees stood around in the final push to the portal in London, to resemble the forest from Shepard's dreams, therefore the whole thing was imaginary. But after playing it again, those trees were just normal trees that can be found anywhere and no part of it was anything like Shepard's dream.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure why anyone could give Bioware credit for putting as much thought into one of their games as the IT demands. They've always been hacks and lazy writers, I don't think they've ever subverted a cliche or defied genre expectations.

 

[Lhynn]

The IT made sense at first because the ending was so fucking horrible and did not make any sense at all. Any alternative sounded more credible than what we actually got.

But the EC put the whole thing to bed, Bioware doubled down in their "ORGANICS AND MACHINES MUST ALWAYS FIGHT, LALALALALALA" mindset and much of the IT no longer held up to scrutiny. I remember a big part of that theory was that there were trees stood around in the final push to the portal in London, to resemble the forest from Shepard's dreams, therefore the whole thing was imaginary. But after playing it again, those trees were just normal trees that can be found anywhere and no part of it was anything like Shepard's dream.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure why anyone could give Bioware credit for putting as much thought into one of their games as the IT demands. They've always been hacks and lazy writers, I don't think they've ever subverted a cliche or defied genre expectations.

Already explained it in my post. Plus its not "clever", i thought about it when i first played that shitty dlc from me2 and im not that smart.

 

[xemous]

the ending to mass effect 3 overshadowed how crap the entire game actually was

 

[Athelas]

The real indoctrination is the widespread delusion that the Mass Effect trilogy was the pinnacle of video game storytelling and that the ending was the only thing wrong with it.

 

[Lhynn]

The real indoctrination is the widespread delusion that the Mass Effect trilogy was the pinnacle of video game storytelling and that the ending was the only thing wrong with it.

The real indoctrination is the widespread codexian delusion that the mass effect trilogy was the downfall of RPGs and that there werent good elements in the first and second game only because Bioware did it.

 

[Athelas]

That's...not what I said. A game can be okay or even great without being 'the pinnacle of video game storytelling and role-playing'.

 

[Lhynn]

Yeah but i see polar opposites and people not being fair a lot around here too, as a matter of fact i see more biowhore idiots saying that ME3 blew goats than i see codexers acknowledging that more than a few bits of them were actually good.
Plus it fit so nicely i just couldnt resist.

 

[Xor]

The IT is true, they didnt aknowledge it because it woulda meant legal problems. Stupid as it sounds, if it had been true then the game would have not been complete and the story arc would have not been finished, meaning they sold an incomplete product meaning shit woulda gotten bad.
Extended cut was there to subvert it, an ass pull to leave the sheep content, but they wrote themselves into a corner.

I think it's far more likely that the IT was just one of several ideas they had for development. Considering what a mess ME3's narrative is, they probably had no idea how the game was going to end during pre production, so they just planned out a bunch of set pieces that could be put together in any order with minimal changes and then wrote the beginning and ending during development. That explains why the beginning and ending are such a fucking mess, why the various missions for the most part have nothing to do with each other, etc. The game is a mess because they couldn't figure out how to satisfyingly end the series.

If they were really going to do the IT, it's also pretty likely it would have been the standard Bioware end of act 2 twist and would have been completely resolved at the beginning of act 3.

Also, they wouldn't get into legal trouble for changing the series from 3 games to 4. That's fucking stupid.

 

[DalekFlay]

The real indoctrination is the widespread delusion that the Mass Effect trilogy was the pinnacle of video game storytelling and that the ending was the only thing wrong with it.

Yeah.

ME3's ending didn't bother me much because I honestly didn't see a drop in quality. It seemed to be the same mediocre sci-fi fapping from all of ME2 and ME3. The original game was considerably better to my mind, but that might be because I'm a sucker for the music.

 

[Night Goat]

The IT is true, they didnt aknowledge it because it woulda meant legal problems. Stupid as it sounds, if it had been true then the game would have not been complete and the story arc would have not been finished, meaning they sold an incomplete product meaning shit woulda gotten bad.
Extended cut was there to subvert it, an ass pull to leave the sheep content, but they wrote themselves into a corner.

It sounds stupid because it fucking is stupid. Your understanding of the law is so egregiously wrong that I don't even know what to say.

 

[Lhynn]

I think it's far more likely that the IT was just one of several ideas they had for development. Considering what a mess ME3's narrative is, they probably had no idea how the game was going to end during pre production, so they just planned out a bunch of set pieces that could be put together in any order with minimal changes and then wrote the beginning and ending during development. That explains why the beginning and ending are such a fucking mess, why the various missions for the most part have nothing to do with each other, etc. The game is a mess because they couldn't figure out how to satisfyingly end the series.

If they were really going to do the IT, it's also pretty likely it would have been the standard Bioware end of act 2 twist and would have been completely resolved at the beginning of act 3.

Also, they wouldn't get into legal trouble for changing the series from 3 games to 4. That's fucking stupid.

Stupid as it is, they did get sue for false advertising, and IT would have made a really strong case in court, plus the people that would have felt cheated out of their choice at the end because they picked another "color" would have been yet another mess they would have had to clean up. Thats why they debunked it themselves.
The only reason the IT made it was because the lead writer was given complete creative freedom to write it, Bioware would have never approved a thing that would have left so many people out.
There is no denying its there unless you didnt play the game or werent paying attention, i meant its RIGHT THERE. the visual effects, the matching descriptions that wouldnt have been added otherwise, the whole plot set up, everything.

Night Goat Its not my law to understand you laughable piece of shit (i still love you tho <3). But if they say "this is green", and you buy it because they told you it was green, and then it turns out its red, it is, in fact, false advertising/fraud.

 

[Jick Magger]

 

[Lhynn]

Not saying it would have a shot in court, but i doubt that was the intent, it was probably to raise awareness, which does have a bite.

 

[Delterius]

Sued for not finishing a story arc? If that's is true, I wonder when the Firefly fans will get a clue.

 

[Lhynn]

Sued for not finishing a story arc? If that's is true, I wonder when the Firefly fans will get a clue.

Bioware PR outright promised a lot of stuff, it turned out to be word by word a lie, down to the description of the ending, saying it wouldnt be like it ended up being, textbook false advertising.

Not even sure if the law punishes that sort of thing in kwa, but thats pretty much what happened. Of course it was out of incompetence, misinformation or both and a lot of bad luck and not out of malice, but shit happened.

 

[Delterius]

I'm sure that the first thing the Judge will say right before dismissing the claim is 'Its just Videogames, bra'.

 

[Lhynn]

Not saying it would have a shot in court, but i doubt that was the intent, it was probably to raise awareness, which does have a bite.

Plus you can never tell when a judge son is a mass effect player, a codexer, or worse, smudboy.

 

[Xor]

I think it's far more likely that the IT was just one of several ideas they had for development. Considering what a mess ME3's narrative is, they probably had no idea how the game was going to end during pre production, so they just planned out a bunch of set pieces that could be put together in any order with minimal changes and then wrote the beginning and ending during development. That explains why the beginning and ending are such a fucking mess, why the various missions for the most part have nothing to do with each other, etc. The game is a mess because they couldn't figure out how to satisfyingly end the series.

If they were really going to do the IT, it's also pretty likely it would have been the standard Bioware end of act 2 twist and would have been completely resolved at the beginning of act 3.

Also, they wouldn't get into legal trouble for changing the series from 3 games to 4. That's fucking stupid.

Stupid as it is, they did get sue for false advertising, and IT would have made a really strong case in court, plus the people that would have felt cheated out of their choice at the end because they picked another "color" would have been yet another mess they would have had to clean up. Thats why they debunked it themselves.
The only reason the IT made it was because the lead writer was given complete creative freedom to write it, Bioware would have never approved a thing that would have left so many people out.
There is no denying its there unless you didnt play the game or werent paying attention, i meant its RIGHT THERE. the visual effects, the matching descriptions that wouldnt have been added otherwise, the whole plot set up, everything.

Night Goat Its not my law to understand you laughable piece of shit (i still love you tho <3). But if they say "this is green", and you buy it because they told you it was green, and then it turns out its red, it is, in fact, false advertising/fraud.

First of all, how many game companies do you see getting sued for not delivering things they stated in their marketing? Because game companies lie in their marketing all the fucking time. Gamers don't give a fuck about this stuff, and I doubt you'd even be able to find a lawyer willing to go to court over something like this.

But really, take a step back from this lawsuit stuff for a second. Why the fuck would Bioware plan the plot of the 3rd game intending to extend the trilogy if they weren't going to be able to release the game in that state? Or do you really think Bioware's management and legal department wouldn't be aware of the writers' plans until it was too late? And beyond that, if they had really wanted to go with the IT, why would they have to leave the story unfinished? If it was so important that they had this grand vision, why didn't they just change the 3rd act to reveal Shepard was indoctrinated and have the characters overcome the problem in the 3rd act?

There is no direct ingame evidence in ME3 that Shepard is indoctrinated, just a few unexplained things like the dream sequences, and when you step back and look there's actually a bunch of evidence that Shepard isn't indoctrinated. Face facts - Bioware's writers are hacks. You are defending people who don't deserve it. I don't expect much more of you, though. Anyone self deluded enough to actually believe in the indoctrination theory has a tenuous grasp of reality themselves.