Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[lukaszek]

You should have gotten a few of the dwarf mine ring.

i do wear one. Didnt know it spawns? Cant say I paid much attention to my items

Also in water you could have just flown away and ignored the combat. In that plane you could fly without having the fly spell.

use terrain to your advantage and you will be fine. In air palace had to make sure I position myself well not to be hit by plethora of sparks

 

[fantadomat]

You should have gotten a few of the dwarf mine ring.

i do wear one. Didnt know it spawns? Cant say I paid much attention to my items

Also in water you could have just flown away and ignored the combat. In that plane you could fly without having the fly spell.

use terrain to your advantage and you will be fine. In air palace had to make sure I position myself well not to be hit by plethora of sparks

To me the fire plane was always the most annoying. Especially the entry group,it is pretty hard to kill in one go. Indoors they are not much of a problem tho.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I really don't understand where this bad Legacy reception comes from. This is a really great little game. It has a slightly different style than previous M&Ms, but that's okay. Personally, I am rather surprised by the admiration for M&M 6-8. These are just boring, underdeveloped games. M&M VI was a betrayal of the series. M&M Legacy is a noble return to the roots and a modern development of the formula (not perfect, but solid).

6 certainly broke the Terra/Xeen formula, but it retained a lot of its charm, with a vast leveled colourful overworld that you could explore by walking/waterwalking/flying, the 4-team and optional extras, the shitty party that struggles vs a single goblin at first to end up wiping entire cities with a single spell, the themed dungeons, the crippling debuffs... It managed to keep a lot of the spirit while breaking a lot of the mechanics. Personally, while it was unsettling at first, I loved it. Plus there's a lot to be said for spells like meteor shower which have you murder mobs by the dozen on the horizon. That said, never really got into 7 and 8 as I was out-grinded already with 6 and couldn't face another full run form zero to hero and opening every town door to find trainers. But I still have them lying in wait, someday maybe I'll go back and finish them.

Can't comment on X though, I picked it up on the cheap but never got round to playing it. It looks decent from what I've seen.

As for 9, I have seen the wife cry and mention suicide while playing it. I'm not touching that... thing...

Besides what Fishy just said, VI, VII and VIII retained the essential while improving the UI a lot.
VI (and 7, 8) is still lightning fast, one of the fastest UI ever made, faster inventory navigation for sure.
Fast and easy to navigate cities and areas, very good dungeon design.
There's something to be said for fighting hordes of enemies and annihilating them with a single spell (or two).

Meanwhile, X did many things wrong
Moving, how could they fuck that up?
That's the most basic thing, every single tester had to notice it and yet, every step is marked long enough to be a nuisance
Their cities are hard to navigate labyrinth, yet, you don't have the fly spell or the early teleport spell, they even nerfed Lloyd's beacon because not only it's one location per beacon but its shared with every caster that have it, it's so much retarded i'm speechless.
JRPG blocks in every fucking corner locking shortcuts even in cities and in every fucking dungeon just to get to a single chest and all that backtracking in empty dungeons is so painful.
And i'm not talking about Ubisoft client and their hate for modders.
On top of that, dungeons are just boring mazes, III, IV and V had way better dungeons and even the most basic ones were better because of the spells to navigate them and how fast it all was.
VI+ even improved on the dungeon design overall.

Had they improved their engine (a lot) and added these little QoL improvements, the game would have been way better and gotten a way better reception.
And with full modding support on top of that, it'd have just been great.

Instead, it's just a mediocre and really tedious game.

 

[jackofshadows]

Moving, how could they fuck that up?
That's the most basic thing, every single tester had to notice it and yet, every step is marked long enough to be a nuisance

I don't remember how it's been on release but now you can just press the walk button and move forward freely. With strafe the same way and by looking at the mini-map it's easy to move in the cities and sometimes outside.

you don't have the fly spell or the early teleport spell, they even nerfed Lloyd's beacon because not only it's one location per beacon but its shared with every caster that have it, it's so much retarded i'm speechless.

The world is tiny and via obelisk teleports is very easy to quickly move around even w/o transport/lloyd. That said, I agree that they still should've separate lloyds for different casters, I mean - why not?

JRPG blocks in every sucking corner locking shortcuts even in cities and in every fucking dungeon just to get to a single chest and all that backtracking in empty dungeons is so painful.

It refers to the tiny game's world again and ultimately budget restrictions. I was ok with the blocks, otherwise the world would've felt even smaller after the first run. Forest blocks are only blocking well, forest areas, same for rocks and then water which blocking few tiles in the cities among others yes but is that really big of a deal? The only blocks in dungeons are concentrated in elemental forge but that's the point of that dungeon.

 

[Dungeon Lord]

Potion making can be very dangerous to your health in MM6.
I got tenosynovitis with many right clicks.

 

[Kliwer]

Meanwhile, X did many things wrong
Moving, how could they fuck that up?
That's the most basic thing, every single tester had to notice it and yet, every step is marked long enough to be a nuisance
Their cities are hard to navigate labyrinth, yet, you don't have the fly spell or the early teleport spell, they even nerfed Lloyd's beacon because not only it's one location per beacon but its shared with every caster that have it, it's so much retarded i'm speechless.
JRPG blocks in every fucking corner locking shortcuts even in cities and in every fucking dungeon just to get to a single chest and all that backtracking in empty dungeons is so painful.
And i'm not talking about Ubisoft client and their hate for modders.
On top of that, dungeons are just boring mazes, III, IV and V had way better dungeons and even the most basic ones were better because of the spells to navigate them and how fast it all was.
VI+ even improved on the dungeon design overall.

Had they improved their engine (a lot) and added these little QoL improvements, the game would have been way better and gotten a way better reception.
And with full modding support on top of that, it'd have just been great.

Instead, it's just a mediocre and really tedious game.

It never ceases to amaze me that different people have such different tastes. It's kind of wonderful and uplifting in this globalized, unified world.

In my opinion the word "tedious" is no better for anything than M&M 6-8. Especially 6. It is a torment to survive the pointless hordes of monsters in this game. Moreover, this engine, in my opinion, is not an "upgrade". It is a heresy. It is played like a crippled shooter, not cRPG. And M&M X offers us a very good, very RPGish combat system.

Dungeons are obviously worse than in M&M 3-5 (if only because we don't have access to spells like teleport, ethereal, jump, wizard eye etc.). But compared to those of the M&M 6 - they're gorgeous. With an interesting structure. And a lot of riddles and puzzles in them (in M&M 6 we practically only fight). These puzzles are a bit too simple, but still good. Tower of Enigma is a really good, unique dungeon - even from the perspective of the good old days. Blobber without puzzles is an abomination - and in M&M 6-8 there are almost no puzzles at all. This alone makes M&M X dominant over them.

Also, I have never felt that M&M X is playing too slowly. The fact that the game world unlocks as the plot progresses is acceptable to me. A slightly different structural idea.

The Ubisoft client is a disaster, no doubt about it.

 

[lukaszek]

in mm6, do you get more xp when you run solo?
thinking about doing either archer, druid, sorc... leaning on druid but cant decide yet

 

[CryptRat]

Stop playing party-based games without a party, it's so sad (although' 8 is borderline since you don't create your party).

 

[Sinatar]

Stop playing party-based games without a party, it's so sad (although' 8 is borderline since you don't create your party).

It gives us something to do after we've finished the game 20 times.

 

[lukaszek]

Stop playing party-based games without a party, it's so sad (although' 8 is borderline since you don't create your party).

It gives us something to do after we've finished the game 20 times.

future of rpgs is single guy against the odds. Parties were a mistake. Parties of more than 4 were even bigger one.
It might have started as group thing with dice, but evolution is bound to kick in at some point

 

[jungl]

I liked how in 10 some fights have you moving back and forth tiles to avoid death. 6-8 yes very annoying checking houses for trainers or whatever really. There obvious easy ways developers could do spiritual sequels to 3-6 and 6-8 make them vastly better games.

 

[Storyfag]

6-8 yes very annoying checking houses for trainers or whatever really

Oh, look. A goldfish.

 

[Darth Canoli]

In my opinion the word "tedious" is no better for anything than M&M 6-8. Especially 6. It is a torment to survive the pointless hordes of monsters in this game. Moreover, this engine, in my opinion, is not an "upgrade". It is a heresy. It is played like a crippled shooter, not cRPG.

Nobody thought Mandate of Heaven was an upgrade when they released it.
I was the first to hate them for "betraying" their legacy but they were right to do it, that's where the money was and we probably wouldn't have 7 & 8 if they stuck to their previous engine.

I don't think 6's engine is an upgrade, the UI is a massive upgrade though.
The real masterpiece is probably a mix of III, IV, V, VI, VI and VIII, possibly with some bonus additions from X (well, after 20 years, if they didn't add anything, it would be even worse) like the leveling artifacts, the combat skills and the more dynamic combat with some movement like the boss fight on top of the tower (the second dungeon).

I think every single game from the second and third trilogy has something very good the other ones don't have and i'm sure 1 and 2 do too.
And in spite of their weaknesses, because none is perfect, they all remain extremely fun and all have an extremely polished engine.

That's why Legacy's engine and Ubisoft client are the worst betrayals, aside from the dumbed down and removed traveling spells (teleport, fly, walk on water, LLoyd's becon, ...)

Dungeons are obviously worse than in M&M 3-5 (if only because we don't have access to spells like teleport, ethereal, jump, wizard eye etc.). But compared to those of the M&M 6 - they're gorgeous. With an interesting structure. And a lot of riddles and puzzles in them (in M&M 6 we practically only fight). These puzzles are a bit too simple, but still good. Tower of Enigma is a really good, unique dungeon - even from the perspective of the good old days. Blobber without puzzles is an abomination - and in M&M 6-8 there are almost no puzzles at all. This alone makes M&M X dominant over them.

Also, I have never felt that M&M X is playing too slowly. The fact that the game world unlocks as the plot progresses is acceptable to me. A slightly different structural idea.

The Ubisoft client is a disaster, no doubt about it.

I disagree here, sure, there is some very good dungeons in the series before 6 and i particularly like the traps you can only avoid with spells instead of the "modern" way, aka BG's retarded "disarm some geometric forms", also, cities in IV and V are way more interesting than in 6 and 7 (they're better in VIII though).

Still, even if i was horrified by the 3D dungeons at first, particularly the platformer elements, looks like they were visionary as it seems to be the new trend, verticality sells...

I'd like to know when you first played the Might & Magic series, obviously, you started by early ones but which ones and when?
Also, if all these JRPG blocks don't get to you, maybe you're used to play JRPGs?

I agree about the puzzles, even if there is some "light" puzzles in 6, 7 and 8, they've been dumbed down, which is a shame, it's probably their worst offense with the reduced party size.
Still, X puzzles are nothing like early M&M puzzles; one of my favorite being the cartographer's charade in Darkside in the first city; so ti doesn't make it a better game than 6, 7 or 8.

As for the hordes of enemies, i kind of like it, I like fighting colossal and tough scarce enemies but blasting through hordes of mobs also has it's charm.
And it only turns into a shooter if you want it too, you can have a party without archery or with limited archery to hit and run early on if necessary.

Dungeons are obviously worse than in M&M 3-5 (if only because we don't have access to spells like teleport, ethereal, jump, wizard eye etc.). But compared to those of the M&M 6 - they're gorgeous. With an interesting structure.

I forgot about this...
Did you play 8? Dungeons are way shorter but quite interesting for most of them.
But then, i wonder why you're thinking they're so gorgeous in Legacy?
What's so gorgeous about them and don't talk about the one dungeon you like, tell me how many dungeons in X you think are so gorgeous ?
Do you mean you like the way they look? It would be the beginning of an answer...

Because i don't see it, most dungeons are boring, starting with the first tutorial one, the catacombs under the second city, the castle is a railroaded slog, the dungeon where you get the corrupted earth heart or something is a borefest and so on...

edit : typos

 

[Dungeon Lord]

Sorry, I cannot remember any dungeon in Legacy X. They were all boring snorefest.

But Darkmoor of MM6! That is always in my nightmares!

 

[Kliwer]

I'd like to know when you first played the Might & Magic series, obviously, you started by early ones but which ones and when?

Nay. This is my M&M story. I started with HoM&M 2. The game had a great aesthetic for me, but I didn't like it as such (I'm not a strategy fan). I was around 14 at the time and it was the first game on my new computer (CD, not floppy!). If you remember - in the HoM&M2 main menu, if you click on the wooden door - M&M 6 advertisement is displayed. I loved it and I wanted to find this game very much. But it didn't happen until 4 years later. When I was 18, I played M&M 6 for the first time and this game disgusted me, disappointed me and rejected me. Then, in college, I played the M&M7 and 8 - they were a little better in my eyes, but still weak.

So a few years ago I decided to break my prejudices against the M&M series and played World of Xeen. I was enchanted by the game immediately. I liked the manual and the world map. I liked the graphics. Enjoyed the world exploration, dungeons and dungeon puzzles. I have become an admirer of this game. Then I played M&M 3 Isles of Terra - I liked this one even more. I tried to play M&M 2 - it was nice too, but a bit too archaic for me. Since then, I can't understand how such a great series of games could be so spoiled by M&M 6-8.

In 2019 I bought M&MX: L (already patched - I don't buy games younger than a year) and I also fell in love. This is fresh air for me. For years I have not seen any "new" role-playing game and not be disappointed. It was the first "new" game that I really enjoyed. After rubbish such as Skyrim, Witcher 3 or PoE - this game restored my faith that there are still talented game designers.

 

[Fishy]

Sorry, I cannot remember any dungeon in Legacy X. They were all boring snorefest.

But Darkmoor of MM6! That is always in my nightmares!

My memory is hazy but... is that the one with the floating eyes madness extravaganza? Because that one absolutely broke me.

 

[Kliwer]

Also, if all these JRPG blocks don't get to you, maybe you're used to play JRPGs?

No. I don't know JRPGs at all, I don't like Asian aesthetics. However, I never really liked sandbox games. I've always preferred semi-open world games like BG2 or Gothic. Fully open ended games are fun in theory, but in practice it never (in my opinion) succeeds.

As for the hordes of enemies, i kind of like it, I like fighting colossal and tough scarce enemies but blasting through hordes of mobs also has it's charm.

We can agree to the disagreement, I suppose. Like I said - I don't like M&M 6-8, but I don't see anything wrong with the fact that others like them.

Did you play 8? Dungeons are way shorter but quite interesting for most of them.

It is true. M&M 8 has the best dungeons in the 6-8 trilogy.

But then, i wonder why you're thinking they're so gorgeous in Legacy?
What's so gorgeous about them and don't talk about the one dungeon you like, tell me how many dungeons in X you think are so gorgeous ?
Do you mean you like the way they look? It would be the beginning of an answer...

First of all - as I said - there are riddles here. Rhymes on chests, levers, pressure plates etc. in the very structure of the dungeons. Nothing fancy when compared to the old titles (M&M 3-5, Anvil by Dawn, Lands of Lore), but compared to the present day it is something great.

Second - I like the turn-based combat system in this game. It is the only M&M game with a relatively developed combat system. I will say more - this is almost the only blobber combat system I like. I don't like realtime blobbers. I don't like the "phase" system (like in Wizardry), and I don't like hybrid systems (like in M&M 6-8 or Wizards and Warriors). I like the classic turn-based system. Maybe that's why I like M&M X so much. I also believe that in M&MX, encounters with enemies are cleverly inscribed in the structure of levels (e.g. fighting ghosts on narrow footbridges - when enemies can levitate over gaps and we cannot).

Third - I like the system of hidden, stat-dependent passages. It could be done better, but it's okay.

Fourth - I believe that these dungeons have charm and an interesting structure. Not all, but many. Lighthouse - good placement of enemies in a narrow space and a great final boss + a delightful view on the land as a reward. Tomb of Thousand Terrors with a dark atmosphere. The already mentioned Tower of Enigma - a dungeon without enemies I have not seen since when? Realms of Arkania 1? Elemental Forge - also cool, both in terms of puzzles and boss fights. Even the Underground City - a multi-level dungeon with exits at different points on the map.

To this it should be added that I like the dynamics of this game. Gold is scare on higher difficulty. Fighting is still a challenge. I like character development - very "narrow", you have to count skill points well, never have place for everything you want.

These dungeons - as I mentioned - are not the best ever. But they are solid. Plus, all the rest of the game's aspects are very good.

In my opinion, the best dungeons in this genre of games are offered by Wizards and Warriors. I've never seen anything better. But at the same time, this game is so underdeveloped, so crippled in technical terms, that I often had to force myself to keep going. The M&M X, by contrast, is less brilliant, but more technically polished. Sometimes it's hard to say which game is better. Is the one with a spark of genius, but deeply flawed in some aspects (W&W, Arcanum)? Or the one that does everything only by craftsmanship solidly, but without breaking anything seriously (M&MX: L, Drakensang, BG2)?

 

[Darth Canoli]

Well, let's agree to disagree then, interesting discussion.

Still, one point i strongly disagree with is the hordes of mobs, i hate it in most games but New World Computing made it work in M&M 6+, mostly because of their great AoE spells, outdoors and even indoors.

 

[J_C]

6-8 yes very annoying checking houses for trainers or whatever really.

That gave the games a unique charm, made it more real and "immersive". If I'm making an RPG in the future, you can bet that it will have that feature.

 

[Fishy]

Well, let's agree to disagree then, interesting discussion.

Still, one point i strongly disagree with is the hordes of mobs, i hate it in most games but New World Computing made it work in M&M 6+, mostly because of their great AoE spells, outdoors and even indoors.

Yeah, the AoE spells suddenly feel glorious instead of a simple mana/damage ratio calculated on 1-4 mobs. The hordes also have their moments early game like when you first find a couple disciples of Baa by a hill, then 2 more, then 4 more, then 8 more, then the entire skyline is filled with them. They go down easily but it's a nice touch that plays on what the different engine can bring to the table.

I also feel like we haven't given enough credit to 6-8 in terms of exploration. Water walking and flying make you revisit maps and find a lot of nooks and crannies on islands, high perches or hidden valleys. This is a bit akin to the feeling you get in 3-5 after picking up swimming, forestry or mountaineering and go back to clear up the old maps.

I won't lie, I find the game engine itself clunky and rather ugly, but I really think they managed to make it work. That said, I'm not sure I could get into 6-8 today if I hadn't played them in their days.

 

[Storyfag]

Sorry, I cannot remember any dungeon in Legacy X. They were all boring snorefest.

But Darkmoor of MM6! That is always in my nightmares!

My memory is hazy but... is that the one with the floating eyes madness extravaganza? Because that one absolutely broke me.

I don't really understand the beef you guys have with Castle Darkmoor. I felt right at home there.

Spoiler

 

[J_C]

Sorry, I cannot remember any dungeon in Legacy X. They were all boring snorefest.

But Darkmoor of MM6! That is always in my nightmares!

My memory is hazy but... is that the one with the floating eyes madness extravaganza? Because that one absolutely broke me.

I don't really understand the beef you guys have with Castle Darkmoor. I felt right at home there.

Spoiler

The perfect solution for Castle Darkmoor is to visit other places first and get overleveled, then go back to Darkmoor and mow down the pathetic inmates of the place.

 

[Storyfag]

Sorry, I cannot remember any dungeon in Legacy X. They were all boring snorefest.

But Darkmoor of MM6! That is always in my nightmares!

My memory is hazy but... is that the one with the floating eyes madness extravaganza? Because that one absolutely broke me.

I don't really understand the beef you guys have with Castle Darkmoor. I felt right at home there.

Spoiler

The perfect solution for Castle Darkmoor is to visit other places first and get overleveled, then go back to Darkmoor and mow down the pathetic inmates of the place.

 

[octavius]

Nothing wrong with saving Castle Darkmoor for later. That's the beauty of nonlinear and open world games.

 

[lukaszek]

in mm6, if you were to go all in on selected elemental school of magic, which would give you most devastating spell? Im talking about resistant enemies like kregans or varn. Would it be poison spray paired with acid burst on whatever is immune?