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Decline The new Thiaf game is MASSIVE decline - Eidos Forum Refugee Camp

Melan

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Man, I would fucking kill to play what Thief 2 Gold could have been. It also would have been nice if the modders who wanted to fan-make Thief 2 Gold didn't give up almost immediately because they were chumps in the T2 mapping community (from how I understand it this is how it went down), but now ever since that fell on its ass no other T2 modders/mappers has thought of touching the idea of T2 Gold. I think one of the guys involved in that T2Gold fan project released 1 map inspired by the T2Gold material (it was either the college one or the museum one), but this was already way after the project had officially died and he only finished what he had started on that one map because he felt obligated to. Such a shame in any case.
There are good reasons T2 Gold never turned into a working fan project. The materials the community received in the package were not even close to a draft stage where you could even discern an overall building style or plot direction Looking Glass was going for. Just very basic rough brushwork and a few objects; on its own, not really different from what a newbie mapper might turn out. The undead mission never even existed IIRC, only a sheet of scribbles with unrealised ideas. I briefly considered adopting the "Slums" mission, but it was just a sequence of fairly cubical-looking spaces. Nothing at the level of quality seen in Assassins, or even Ambush!/Trace the Courier.

Where do you go from that basis? Anywhere and nowhere. You could build any kind of map from those .mis files, but that also means there was no concrete goal to work for and fairly little added value. Second problem, it was all stock T2 resources, and extremely basic at that. By the time the package was released, the FM community had moved on to more detail and better visuals. The people who could make the large-scale missions the project would need were not interested in completing a stock resources only outline, or risking criticism for tampering with the LGS legacy by updating it. But there was very little to work with anyway.

So it's not like T2G was a half-finished project full of hidden gems the community dropped because people bit off more than they could chew, it was a very vague promise at best. CoSaS and The Hammerite Imperium have far more advanced work than T2G ever did, and they are also out there collecting dust.
 

argan

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And a big fat "Seal of disapproval".

I gave it a chance, but it cost me several hours of my life. Fuck.
 

Sonus

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Not too long after the marketing campaign began last march, and with almost every public relations information release over this last year, it occurred to me they seemed to be approaching game design from Game Development for Dummies, following starter templates, like gaming cookbook recipes for people who burn water.
 

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Shamus Young Thiaf plot "autopsy": http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=22587

Thief Autopsy Part 1: Prologue

So Thief has come and gone. Based strictly on how much discussion it’s generating, I estimate that upwards of six people bought it. It’s not generating buzz the way Tomb Raider or Human Revolution did. It’s not generating controversy the way Duke Nukem Forever did. And it’s not getting public derision the way Aliens Colonial Marines did. The game is barely a month old, and the conversation is basically over already. 6.9/10. Meh. Which is a shame. This game is not nearly the train wreck that Aliens: CM[1] was, and I hate to see it forgotten so soon.

So let me do my part by meticulously picking at the game and pointing out all the flaws. Partly because in the world of games it’s better to be criticized than ignored, but mostly because that’s what we do here.

The various appendages of this game simply don’t fit together. Normally I blame these kinds of problems on bad writing, but in this case I think the game suffers from a severe case of re-writing and script tampering. Examining the story feels like an archaeological dig where we try to figure out what era the disparate pieces belong to.


thief2014_nitpick2.jpg



We start off with a little tutorial where we slink from one apartment to another while the game teaches the player how to sneak, extinguish lights, loot stuff, etc. Once the player has the basics down, we hear pounding footsteps on the roof outside. It’s time to meet our woman in the fridge.

Their introductory dialog:

Garret: Care to make a little more noise next time?

Erin: How else would you know it was me? (Beat.) Basso did tell you we were working together on this, right?

Garret: Well I showed up, didn't I? What do you think?

Erin: I think you haven't changed a bit.

Gah. It’s not the worst dialog I’ve ever heard, but there’s definitely something wrong here.



thief2014_nitpick1.jpg

I like to think the game designer reviewed this scene with the level designer and threw up his hands in frustration, "You fool! I can still detect faint traces of blue in the skybox. The design document clearly calls for low-contrast brown with complete uniformity, yet I can still differentiate between foreground and background elements. I can even see this incredibly important central character without needing to squint very hard, you complete hack!"


She says: “How else would you know it was me?”

Wait, is she taking pride in being noisy? And is she suggesting that she’s so notoriously and uniquely noisy that it’s kind of a calling card? Or is this supposed to be sarcastic? At first I assumed her dialog would be clearer once we get to know her character, but I’ve been through the whole game and I still can’t tell what this was supposed to mean.

He says: “Well I showed up, didn’t I? What do you think?”

Again, you could take this either way:

  1. I dislike you so thoroughly that I would never work with you, therefore my showing up serves as proof that Basso didn’t tell me you were involved.
  2. I wouldn’t have known to meet you here if Basso hadn’t told me, therefore my showing up serves as proof that Basso did tell me you were involved.
This is kind of an important distinction. This dialog exists to establish their relationship, but it’s not working because I don’t know what either one of them is trying to say.

She says: “I think you haven’t changed a bit.”

This is a standard screenwriter shortcut for “Okay, I’m done showing you these two people know each other, time to exit the conversation.” But since the previous dialog didn’t make any sense, we don’t know what to make of this. What aspect of his character “hasn’t changed”? He doesn’t know what’s going on? He’s hostile towards Erin? Grumpy? Difficult and obtuse?

This is a running theme in their dialog throughout the game. It’s both incredibly cliche while also failing to give the viewer anything to work with, character-wise. It’s confusing. And not in a “mysterious” way, but in a “muddled and distracting” kind of way. My guess is that this dialog has been written, re-written, re-organized and re-cut as the team fussed with the story, and the constant edits turned what was probably envisioned as straightforward “friendly rivalry” banter into this complete hash.

This is the start of the antagonistic relationship between Erin and the player. During the rest of the tutorial Erin uses every moment of screen time to make herself as unlikable as possible.

  1. She pretends she’s going to hand Garret a piece of paper, but at the last second she the drops it on the floor so he has to stop and pick it up. In real life this isn’t a terrible thing, but in the context of a movie this sort of behavior is usually performed by a villain. The writer has someone act like an ass to make it easier to for the audience to hate them.
  2. She murders a young guard, instead of knocking him out. Keep in mind that in the Thief universe, murder is portrayed as the work of an amateur. The game isn’t just telling us she’s a bad person, it’s also telling us she’s a terrible thief.
  3. She repeatedly insults Garret. It’s not playful buddy-cop “just like old times” kind of stuff, but more like watching a divorced couple trade barbs. And since Garret is trying to get her to show restraint and be a thief, it’s pretty natural to expect the player to take his side.


thief2014_nitpick3.jpg



This character is about to exit the story and I assume we’re supposed to feel something about that when it happens, but I have no idea what the writer is trying to do here. There is no warmth or friendship between these two. There’s not even respect. If I hadn’t known where the story was going, I would have assumed it was setting her up to be some sort of backstabbing villain. She’s certainly not sympathetic.

Erin uses this claw-thing to scale walls. It lets her reach places that Garret can’t, but he claims it’s “holding her back”. I assume he means emotionally / professionally and not in a practical sense, because it really does seem like a good tool. After yet another argument Garret pickpockets the claw from her.

They get to the manor where a bunch of cultist guys are doing a cultist thing. Garret and Erin are up on the roof, looking down on the proceedings through a giant domed skylight. Main elements of the scene:



thief2014_nitpick5.jpg



  1. The Baron, an industrialist and the nominal leader of the city. He’s leading the ceremony.
  2. A book with a gear on the cover and a lock over it.
  3. The primal stone, a glowly sea-green thing that’s used to unlock the book. This is what we were supposed to steal.
  4. The ceremony summons a vortex of green light and smoke while the Robe Guys chant.
Garret and Erin bicker some more. The Thief-Taker General (the Sheriff, basically) is down on the street, but sees the two thieves on the roof. Then a few seconds later he’s somehow up on the roof with them. Erin ends up falling through the window and right into the vortex. Garret swings down. It looks like he falls, but it also looks kind of like he’s trying to rescue her? Maybe? The roof collapses and the scene is cut off.

This doesn’t feel like a proper ending to the scene. It’s not a fade to black or a cliffhanger, because it cuts off the music and sound. It’s more like someone pausing a DVD than a scene transition. A proper scene ending would have the music build to a crescendo before ending, and it would hang at a black screen for a few seconds. Instead we go from mid-musical note to a completely silent loading screen.

My theory here is that during development this scene was written and re-written. I’m betting there was more action after the ceiling collapse, but those events were removed from the story and the cutscene was messily truncated rather than properly re-editing it.

We’re off to a strange start, and while the gameplay improves the story is pretty much downhill from here. Buckle up.
 

potatojohn

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I think the writers of thiaf basically had a competition for who could insert the most inane dialogue into the game
 

DalekFlay

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I don't think even Eidos really hid the fact this was a troubled project. It's a shame because you can see someone with talent and respect for the series worked on it at some point, in some of the smaller decisions and world-building, but overall others took control and turned it into pure shit.

I'm through chapter 3 and am amazed a big publisher could approve something so badly designed.
 

Azazel

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I don't think even Eidos really hid the fact this was a troubled project. It's a shame because you can see someone with talent and respect for the series worked on it at some point, in some of the smaller decisions and world-building, but overall others took control and turned it into pure shit.

I'm 100% certain at this point that the game featured an entirely different plot, and the build which went gold was rushed out at the last minute using the assets of that entirely different game. Explains the hamfisted story, broken cutscenes, unfinished narrative arc and the large dose of previous-game imagery which does not at all feature in the "rebooted" universe.

My theory is that Gallagher & Cantin chafed at the lack of "artistic freedom" which working in an established setting imposed on them, because they are fucking hacks who can't work around imposed limitations unlike any half-decent writer, and tossed the existing work out wholesale. This would explain why the game was asset-ready but only had a vertical slice demo finished a mere 16 months before the game released. It also clarifies why seemingly half of the games narrative context & backstory takes place in a fucking mobile app as a wall of text, rather than being sprinkled through the game as notes and books.
 
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I think the writers of thiaf basically had a competition for who could insert the most inane dialogue into the game

Writers? Rhianna Pratchett (yes, daughter of the Discworld dude) is at fault here. Look at her credits on wikipedia. Only games listed there that didn't have terrible story is Risen (and I bet she only wrote the helpless female NPC at the beginning), and Mirror's Edge (though the story isn't good either). I also feel her work in latest books by TP, downright to being pretty convinced that she wrote most of them.
 

tuluse

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Writers? Rhianna Pratchett (yes, daughter of the Discworld dude) is at fault here. Look at her credits on wikipedia. Only games listed there that didn't have terrible story is Risen (and I bet she only wrote the helpless female NPC at the beginning), and Mirror's Edge (though the story isn't good either). I also feel her work in latest books by TP, downright to being pretty convinced that she wrote most of them.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...orum-refugee-camp.81047/page-210#post-3133299
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I think the writers of thiaf basically had a competition for who could insert the most inane dialogue into the game

Writers? Rhianna Pratchett (yes, daughter of the Discworld dude) is at fault here. Look at her credits on wikipedia. Only games listed there that didn't have terrible story is Risen (and I bet she only wrote the helpless female NPC at the beginning)

Afaik, she only wrote the dialogues for the English version of Risen, which was basically only an extended translation of the German dialogues, so she didn't have a lot of writing freedom there.
 

Dreaad

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Lets also not forget that the actual story in risen is not that great to begin with. It's really the gameplay and sense of discovery that carry piranha bytes games. Specifically almost any setting where you get to trawl through ancient ruins to discover long lost secrets/magic/artifacts/societies is pretty entertaining.
 

Storyfag

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So, what's the game's plot supposed to be? Evul Industrialist Baron secretly revives the industrialist religion his industrialist ancestors banned to promote industry?

An inquiring Storyfag needs to know.
 

Cadmus

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It's hard to tell how much of the writing Pratchett was directly responsible for except Tomb Raider where she's lead. Having never played it I can't speak to it's quality though. Furthermore even if writing ability were heritable I don't recall her dad being that amazing of a storyteller, in my mind he's more known for dry humor and satire.
Tomb Raider was horrible. I don't remember the earlier Tomb Raiders, so maybe all of them were shit.
I'm pretty sceptical about these sons/daughters/ghost writers continuing the original works. It was shit with Tom Clancy, I assume it was shit with the Sherlock Holmes and I'm glad I still haven't gotten to the newer Discworld novels as I fear this cunt might have vandalized them.
 

Jick Magger

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So, what's the game's plot supposed to be? Evul Industrialist Baron secretly revives the industrialist religion his industrialist ancestors banned to promote industry?

An inquiring Storyfag needs to know.
That's one of the biggest problems with the game; it's a hodge-podge of three separate ideas that on their own could've been entire stories in of themselves.

Conflict between the upper-class industrialists who want to bring the city under their totalitarian heel and the underclass religious masses who just want to go mob violence on everything, which Garret is forced to get involved with!

A mysterious plague strikes the city, leading to innocents dying by the hundreds, and only Garret can get to the bottom of it!

Garret with his young apprentice as he shows her the ropes of thieving and is forced to re-asses his life when he finds himself actually caring for something other than stealing!

Instead, they try to focus on all three at once (with preference given to the Garret/Erin dynamic), with the results being extremely lackluster and further impeded by the fact that the writing is still terrible.
 

Unkillable Cat

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Game in going on sale in Xbox Live with 50% off!!Can't believe it, hasnt been a month yet has it? I have never seen a supposed AAA title be reduced in price so quickly. Waiting for that £5 delivered option:)

It HAS been a month, actually.
 

Infinitron

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Shamus Young autopsy part 2: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=22593

Before we go forward, I need to back up for a minute. In the last entry I tried to summarize the cutscene that ends the prologue, and I actually made a hash of it by leaving out several elements. Let me try again. In the cutscene we have:

  1. The Baron, who is leading…
  2. a cult ceremony, which features a book, which is opened with
  3. A key (or keys?) which activates the…
  4. primal stone which creates…
  5. a magical vortex of unknown utility.
  6. Erin falls into the vortex while trying to reach…
  7. the claw. This causes…
  8. Garret to fall down after her. He may or may not be trying to save her. To break his fall he throws a rope arrow into the leg of the…
  9. Thief-Taker General, who is maimed by this.

thief2014_nitpick5.jpg

And do you, Cornelious, take Aldous as your lawfully wedded... uh. Oops. Wrong script. Give me a minute here.


That’s a LOT of moving parts. In particular, I think having the book AND the keys AND primal stone makes for too many macguffins. This is certainly too many plot elements to ram into a single three-minute cutscene that’s mostly sound, fury, and bickering between our leads.

After the intro cutscene dumps us into a loading screen, Garret wakes up on a plague cart rolling through the city. We’ve done a massive time jump (a year) and now Garret has “amnesia” to explain why he doesn’t realize this. Later it’s revealed that beggars “found” his body and nursed him back to health, and that this may or may not have been a supernatural revival. But that doesn’t really fill in the important blanks. Garret was presumably trapped under rubble inside the Baron’s mansion, surrounded by cultists, with both the Baron and the Sheriff after him. “Amnesia” doesn’t begin to explain how he could possibly get out of that predicament with all his gear, as well as the claw. (There is more on this later, but I want to talk about it in context.)



thief2014_nitpick4.jpg

I feel strongly that a Thief should live in a dark hidey-hole and not in a giant open space with lots of light. And if he IS going to live there, he shouldn't put all his bling on display like the chumps he robs.


We finish up our tutorial with a trip back to the clock tower where Garret lives. As an aside: I really dislike the whole “clock tower” idea. For one thing, he’s got display cases of loot around, which sort of kills that desperate feeling that Garret needs to steal to survive. In the past, Garret made his living job-to-job, stealing just to put food in his belly. If he’s stolen enough money that he can keep his loot instead of fencing it, then it effectively makes Garret part of the decadent upper class the game spends so much time deriding. It also means all his sarcastic mocking of the upper class and their baubles is now incredibly hypocritical. I wouldn’t make a big deal of this[1] if not for the fact that the game is really heavy-handed with its class warfare message. (We do donate to the poor, though. More on that below.)

Also, living behind the clock face is pretty absurd. Isn’t Garret worried that someone will come up here to tinker with the clock once in a while? Doesn’t this thing require maintenance? Wouldn’t it make more sense for him to live in an attic or basement somewhere?

It’s not wrong. It’s just dissonant.

ANYWAY.



thief2014_nitpick6.jpg

The two best characters in the game: Basso, and Basso's hat.


We go see Basso, Garret’s fence. I really liked Basso. He’s probably the most consistent and interesting character in the game.

In the year Garret was missing a plague has broken out, and now bodies are burned to stop it from spreading. Basso asks Garret to get a ring. The guy with the ring died and his body is on its way to the furnace to be burned, presumably still wearing the ring.

On the way to the job Garret stops in to see the Queen of the Beggars. She’s not a bad character. She’s basically a replacement for the Keepers as the conscience of the city. It feels like the plot is supposed to bring her in and go somewhere with her, but it doesn’t. She’s just your upgrades vendor. You give her money, she gives you skill points. That’s fine, although from a practical standpoint it made me wish I could sell all the useless goods in the display cases in the clock tower[2]. I’d rather have the skill points than decorations.



thief2014_nitpick7.jpg

Ugh. That dialog.


We’ve got a system of hoarding extravagant baubles, a heavy-handed rich vs. poor message, and a system where you donate to the poor as a way of becoming a better thief. None of these are terrible, but they kind of clash or undercut each other.

Moving on: It’s a pretty straightforward mission. You sneak into the factory where the bodies are being cremated, slip past the guards, and reach the guy who supposedly has the ring. If you dig around you might uncover a secret room where there’s some sort of automaton sitting at a desk. It’s supposedly part of the whole “industrialization” thing the Baron is doing. It’s obviously a throwback to some earlier version of the game. No character ever discusses these things, they serve no purpose to the city or the Baron’s plans, and while Garret talks about them as if they were insidious, they are never seen to move or take any action. In an earlier version of the script, I imagine these things were part of some scheme to take over the city.

We get to the end of the factory and then this cutscene takes place. What is going on here?

The Thief-Taker General shows up. He’s obviously here for the ring. (On behalf of the Baron I presume? The game never explains.) He searches the body. Then he insinuates that one of the guards might have taken the ring. Then he grabs a cleaver, puts it in the hand of the supposedly untrustworthy guard, and forces him to chop the body a couple of times. The cutting is done off-screen, so I don’t know where he’s cutting. Then TTG finds the ring somewhere in the body and executes the guard as an example to the others for not “following orders”.



thief2014_nitpick24.jpg

I don't have any screenshots from this part of the game, so here's a picture of a guy smoking an invisible pipe.


What? What orders? What is going on here? There are actually procedures for searching bodies posted in the room, and they make no mention of opening the body, which would be a monumentally stupid idea during a plague anyway. Did you give your men orders to randomly hack all the plague bodies with a cleaver in case they have rings in their entrails? Where WAS the ring hidden, anyway? How did it get there? Did he swallow it? What did TTG expect this guard to do? And while we’re at it: Since this dead guy was obviously part of the conspiracy, why didn’t anyone in this cult or club or whatever think to secure the ring before he was dragged off to the morgue?

I’m not saying these questions are “plot holes” or story contradictions. They’re just stuff the story doesn’t make clear, which keeps you from understanding what’s going on.

Whatever. I guess we’ve established our mustache-twirling bad guy who kills his own men for no reason, so let’s move on. Garret nicks the ring and makes his escape.
 

Mofleaker

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Regardless, it's selling very well.
I'm not so sure about that. The only hint of proof I've seen is an article proclaiming it hit the top of the UK charts for a week or so after its release. That's not exactly "selling very well", at least in the context of this game's likely monumental budget.
I think the writers of thiaf basically had a competition for who could insert the most inane dialogue into the game

Writers? Rhianna Pratchett (yes, daughter of the Discworld dude) is at fault here. Look at her credits on wikipedia. Only games listed there that didn't have terrible story is Risen (and I bet she only wrote the helpless female NPC at the beginning), and Mirror's Edge (though the story isn't good either). I also feel her work in latest books by TP, downright to being pretty convinced that she wrote most of them.
I wonder what her dad thinks of her. Terry used to play fan missions and post on the old Thief news groups.
 

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