The original Tomb Raider, its remake, and the loss of subtlety

[Arthandas]

Ehm, yeah thats what I said.

Ok, maybe I misunderstood you, I forgive you.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

for example

and he proceedes to pull a 30 years old one.

 

[agentorange]

I wonder how many threads on the codex can be filed under "things were a lot better when I was 13"

Or just "thing were a lot better the first time I encountered them". A big part of my enjoyment of the original Wizardry, back in the day, came from the sense of open-ended possibility. It seemed like anything was possible. After playing enough video games you inevitably start to see the bones underneath and that erodes the sense of wonder. Maybe just file this under "getting old sucks but it still beats the alternative".

If that's the case why am I able to go back the these old games that I supposedly only like because I am seeing them through rose tinted glasses, or because of the novelty of my first experience with them or what have you, and still enjoy them? Sometimes enjoy them more or in different ways than the first time I played them because I have over the years developed an appreciation for the technical aspects and artistic subtleties I didn't fully appreciate in my youth. And certainly enjoy them more than most of the recently released games I am playing and experiencing for the first time (with all kinds of awful new mechanics I am experiencing for the first time). Important to note that I'm still perfectly able to enjoy new games, regardless of if they offer a completely new experience (say The Talos Principle) or if they are similar to games I experienced before (Prey 2017, the new Hitman games), so long as those games are good.

Conversely, there are plenty of bad games I played for the first time as a kid and really enjoyed, but I don't claim these games are good under the influence of rose-tinted glasses or whatever. I might remember my experience with those games fondly, but the games themselves are not good. There is a thread about Deus Ex IW someone started recently where I mentioned that I loved playing IW as a kid because it was my first experience with that kind of game, but when I go back to it now it is clearly a terrible game, whereas I can still play the original DX and enjoy it despite having played it for the first time years later when I was older. Same goes for Hitman Blood Money, a game I thought was the best thing ever when I first played it, but after playing the earlier games in the series later I find it to be inferior both mechanically and atmospherically, and I also find Blood Money to be inferior to the new games in the series (a combination of opinions and circumstances that should be completely impossible for the drones who try to brush the concept of taste away with claims of nostalgia and rose tinted glasses). RE4 was another game I thought was awesome as a kid, but I can recognize now that it is a shallow game that ruined an entire genre; the QTEs that I experienced for the first time in that game when I was 13, and which gave me an enjoyable thrill the fist time, were shit then and are shit now.

After playing a lot of video games (or reading a lot of books, looking at a lot of paintings, watching a lot of movies, etc etc) and getting older yeah maybe some of that magic that is only possible to experience through naivety and unawareness is lost, but it hopefully gets replaced by a deeper, critical ability to appreciate and analyze the "bones underneath." You may not be taken in by the same childhood wonder that is only possible when you still can't totally separate reality from fiction, but you can experience a new sense of wonder towards all the ingenious techniques and artistic choices that went into the work.

This is not a bad thing, it is how one develops a discriminating taste, which in turn is why a thread like this can exist where people can write in-depth criticism of a game and discuss it on a level that would not be possible when you're a kid (until of course inevitably some bozo comes in and drops the trite "you only liked this because you played it as a kid" line). I resent seeing people rely on the nostalgia and rose tinted glasses argument (which seems to be a very popular thing to do now days), because it tries to handwave away the fact that people can develop a discerning taste about what is really good and what is really bad, which is more important now than ever with how much absolute shit is being produced these days.

Small addendum related to what you said about Wizardry, I actually bounced off Morrowind the first time I played it as a kid because of how open ended and seemingly incomprehensible it was, and it was only relatively recently I was able to get immersed into that game, despite the fact that now days I am fully aware of how limited the game world is I now appreciate all the ways in which they were able to hide that and tried to create the illusion of a large, exotic world.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If that's the case why am I able to go back the these old games that I supposedly only like because I am seeing them through rose tinted glasses

because they remind you of when your life didn't suck

tomb raider was never good, and female protagonists were always subversive feminist trash, not sorry

 

[Rincewind]

You're speaking from my heart agentorange — I can't add much else to what you posted above, except that I'm in full agreement with it. I'm playing many of these old games for the first time now, and I'm enjoying the experience a lot. Understanding these old computers better and having a deeper appreciation of the underlying technological limitations also plays a great part in it, like you said. Also, the ability to re-live the evolution of computer games in the 80s and 90s through the wonder of emulation.

 

[Rincewind]

If that's the case why am I able to go back the these old games that I supposedly only like because I am seeing them through rose tinted glasses

because they remind you of when your life didn't suck

tomb raider was never good, and female protagonists were always subversive feminist trash, not sorry

You start to sound like a professional agitator, man

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If that's the case why am I able to go back the these old games that I supposedly only like because I am seeing them through rose tinted glasses

because they remind you of when your life didn't suck

tomb raider was never good, and female protagonists were always subversive feminist trash, not sorry

You start to sound like a professional agitator, man

How is that being an agitator?
Tomb raider was always feminist propaganda, but now it's ~amazing~ because it released when a lot of posters here were impressionable 13 year olds.

You know, sort of like how baldur's gate was considered trash until the forum was full of millennials whose first game was baldur's gate 2.

 

[agentorange]

If that's the case why am I able to go back the these old games that I supposedly only like because I am seeing them through rose tinted glasses

because they remind you of when your life didn't suck

tomb raider was never good, and female protagonists were always subversive feminist trash, not sorry

You start to sound like a professional agitator, man

How is that being an agitator?
Tomb raider was always feminist propaganda, but now it's ~amazing~ because it released when a lot of posters here were impressionable 13 year olds.

You know, sort of like how baldur's gate was considered trash until the forum was full of millennials whose first game was baldur's gate 2.

As opposed to now, when it's filled with 19 year old faggot zoomers like yourself who are salivating over Baldur's Gate 3.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If that's the case why am I able to go back the these old games that I supposedly only like because I am seeing them through rose tinted glasses

because they remind you of when your life didn't suck

tomb raider was never good, and female protagonists were always subversive feminist trash, not sorry

You start to sound like a professional agitator, man

How is that being an agitator?
Tomb raider was always feminist propaganda, but now it's ~amazing~ because it released when a lot of posters here were impressionable 13 year olds.

You know, sort of like how baldur's gate was considered trash until the forum was full of millennials whose first game was baldur's gate 2.

As opposed to now, when it's filled with 19 year old faggot zoomers like yourself who are salivating over Baldur's Gate 3.

Even oblivion is better than the garbage this thread is about, paintpig.

 

[Ash]

Ban all deniers of the decline. The one echo chamber I want from the internet doesn't exist.

Games went from wonderful relatively complex interactive experiences (but still pretty accessible even for myself as a kid) that provided absolute peak home entertainment, to "press x to watch animation" as the norm, and the majority of people deny there is any issue, and actually enjoy that shit.

...I hate that eugenics sometimes has its appeal.

 

[Semiurge]

If that's the case why am I able to go back the these old games that I supposedly only like because I am seeing them through rose tinted glasses

because they remind you of when your life didn't suck

tomb raider was never good, and female protagonists were always subversive feminist trash, not sorry

Playing as a girl protag is gei. All games should have 150% male cast, but no males masquerading as females in the kitchens, that would be gei also. Just plain ol' males giving birth and shit, like in that comic strip.

 

[Storyfag]

If that's the case why am I able to go back the these old games that I supposedly only like because I am seeing them through rose tinted glasses

because they remind you of when your life didn't suck

tomb raider was never good, and female protagonists were always subversive feminist trash, not sorry

You start to sound like a professional agitator, man

He xir is one.

 

[Jvegi]

Guys and JarlFrank

I'm playing the og TB for the first time, having played 2 and 4 extensively. It's fun, my daughter loves it. Anyway, the T-Rex fight. It's cool, my 6-year-old LOVED it, it was exiting despite me knowing it was coming. But gameplay-wise it's very basic, the dino isn't even that tough, his hp is maybe that of 5 wolves. The one cool thing is that he can one shot you if you jump into his mouth. It's easy, too easy, and the lack of an interesting environmental puzzle associated with him is a missed opportunity.

I'm not saying the remake is better, but it is cinematic, the gameplay is no less sophisticated than in the original, and it could be much worse. Let's not pretend the T-Rex's main strength is not "omfg, a t-rex out of nowhere" aspect, and let's not judge someone trying to replicate this experience too harshly.

 

[Lemming42]

The trouble with the remake is that it curates the player's experience to a ridiculous extent. The TR1 fight is very basic (and combat in general is mechanically weak and usually just irritating to deal with in the Core Design games), but it still leaves control with the player.

You advance into the jungle clearing and get the "omfg, a t-rex out of nowhere" experience, but then it's up to you what to do next. You can try to run past and hide in the cave network in the walls, you can retreat to the entrance and climb the rocks to try and escape, you can charge past it and try to reach the temple on the other side of the clearing, or you can try to fight it. The "fight it" option is uninteresting because of the poor combat (just backflip away while holding down the fire button) but compare with the remake:

You advance towards the jungle clearing and the t-rex arrives in a cutscene during which you have no control. Instead of letting you have your own reaction to the t-rex's arrival, the game stops everything to give you some cinematic shots of it. Then, instead of letting you choose how to proceed, the game gives you an abominably stupid QTE sequence, and then you're locked into a boss battle arena that a) looks very stupid - what the hell are these spiked things meant to be? and b) can't be moved away from until you've killed the t-rex.

Turning the fight into an environmental puzzle is not a bad idea, and the original combat definitely did need improving on, but ripping control away from the player to force them into that very specific situation, and then only giving them one way out, ruins the entire experience. A similar "upgrade" to the encounter could have been achieved by, say, repurposing the old temple from the original game. Let the player move through the valley at will and respond to the t-rex however they wish, as in TR1, but make it so that the easiest and most viable way to stop the t-rex is to flee into the temple, luring the t-rex to bang its head into the crumbling pillars and causing the entrance to collapse on top of it, or something to that effect. As it stands, the fight is arguably more interesting in TR1 than in Anniversary despite how simple it is, since at the very least the player can choose how to approach it.

 

[kangaxx]

I liked Anniversary from the POV of revisiting locations I loved as a kid and seeing a different, updated take on them... but the gameplay systems and exploration etc are all worse IMO, maybe with the exception of the combat. "Curated" is a good word to describe that game Lemming42 .

Let the record show that my first sighting of the T Rex in '96 resulted in me pooing my pants, a 180 flip, running away like a coward because of the music and climbing into a cave/niche where it couldn't get me. It took ages to kill him from there because the fucker kept running out of my FOV.

Top thread.

 

[Semiurge]

Tomb raider was always feminist propaganda

 

[Rincewind]

I *like* playing female protagonists in games.
Also, I'm attracted to women in real life, not guys.

Now spam the ratings! <ducks>

 

[Viata]

Only if it's attractive females. I have no time to look at ugly woman when playing games.

 

[AndyS]

Wasn't the whole justification of Lara Croft that if you had to spend hours watching a person's ass, better that it be a hot chick's ass than a guy's?

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Remakes make sense only for bad/mediocre games.

 

[Viata]

Remakes make sense only for bad/mediocre games.

Why would anyone make remake for those games? They only do remakes of games that sold well because that is a guaranteed sale from fans.

 

[JarlFrank]

Guys and JarlFrank

I'm playing the og TB for the first time, having played 2 and 4 extensively. It's fun, my daughter loves it. Anyway, the T-Rex fight. It's cool, my 6-year-old LOVED it, it was exiting despite me knowing it was coming. But gameplay-wise it's very basic, the dino isn't even that tough, his hp is maybe that of 5 wolves. The one cool thing is that he can one shot you if you jump into his mouth. It's easy, too easy, and the lack of an interesting environmental puzzle associated with him is a missed opportunity.

I'm not saying the remake is better, but it is cinematic, the gameplay is no less sophisticated than in the original, and it could be much worse. Let's not pretend the T-Rex's main strength is not "omfg, a t-rex out of nowhere" aspect, and let's not judge someone trying to replicate this experience too harshly.

But the remake doesn't give you the "omfg, a t-rex out of nowhere" aspect. It gives you a lengthy cutscene that telegraphs the t-rex's arrival. You get a scene of raptors running away from something in terror while Lara looks on with a concerned facial expression. Then t-rex appears and the cutscene goes on, showing t-rex slaughtering a bunch of helpless little raptors, and Lara running away in panic. It takes a long while until control is handed back to you.

That's not "out of nowhere". That's heavily telegraphed, and the shock has worn off long before you get to put your fingers on the keyboard again. By making it more "cinematic" they ruined the whole surprise of the moment.

 

[Storyfag]

Can't have a game cause trigger an actual adrenaline rush, now can we?

 

[Semiurge]

Lara's character was ruined by Crystal Dynamics. Look at her AoD incarnate which was peak design

and compare it to

The change in design illustrates how they turned Lara into a pussy. She's capable of surviving life-threatening situations, sure, but the classic Lara seemed to love getting into them - that's the main difference.

 

[Semiurge]

AoD

Is AoD worth checking out? Don't remember playing it.

Neither have I. There seem to be some fixpacks that improve the controls and fix other issues. It looks great visually, but I won't bother with it if the gameplay sucks.