The original Tomb Raider, its remake, and the loss of subtlety

[Semiurge]

I've never played the original TR. Which version should I play? PS1, Saturn, or PC?

Forget the PS1 and install the Automated Fix on a digital version for the complete experience.

 

[JarlFrank]

Games are funner when they're not forced to explained as much and guides/manuals are given to figure out how to play them, handholding cinematic bullshit had a good part in ruining games.

One element of the nuTomb Raider games illustrates this problem perfectly: instead of loading screens, there are painfully slow area transition scenes where you squeeze yourself through a narrow gap and have to manually hold down W for Lara to walk through it. It's not even gameplay, it's literally just a loading screen, all you do is hold down W to make Lara walk slooooooooowly but modern devs seem to think this is more "engaging" and immersive than having a loading screen.

Tomb Raider Anniversary did that too. It added some unnecessarily long transitional hallways into the first game's levels because the levels were too big for console hardware of the time to load at once. But because loading screens were determined to be immersion-breaking they were masked by long winding hallways you have to run through, so it feels like just part of the level rather than a loading screen (it doesn't, because it's obvious that it's just a loading zone). The modern "hold down W while squeezing through a narrow gap" phenomenon is a further development of that approach.

It fucking sucks and is much more intrusive than a simple loading screen. Even worse: loading screens pass quicker on better hardware, but this shit always takes the same amount of time.

 

[Ezekiel]

Like, do they think a good film director doesn't want the viewer to feel a sense of danger for the character as they walk along a ledge or whatever? The kind of automation, magnetic walking and invisible walls protecting the player nowadays are completely antithetical to what a movie scene with that same scenario tries to convey. Canned animations of the character squeezing between two walls again and again just make the thing feel more artificial and make you feel less like the adventurer in that movie you like, because of how the control is taken away from you.

But this is what modern film offers. Canned ‘animations’ and CGI, and everyone knows that there’s no risk to the actors and actresses whatsoever. People expect it all to be fake.

This may sound like a silly example, but it isn’t. I just recently watched a few interviews with Rowan Atkinson about the ‘Mr. Bean’ series. One scene in particular comes to mind, where he can’t fit a new armchair in his car, so he puts it on the roof and drives home sitting on it. This one:

It’s all real, he actually was just sitting in the chair as they drove around. Only in a few parts did they put the mini (with him still in the chair) on top of a flatbed truck and drive him around that way. And the shots where the car is driving right at the camera, were them just driving right at a camera man. None of this would ever be allowed today, because ‘what if the brakes don’t work?’. But of course they will! ‘Too risky, not allowed!’. By current day standards ‘Mr. Bean’ was a total cowboy production.
That doesn’t even address something like this:



Just analog reality, so pure you can taste it.
The truth is that faking everything has profound consequences for how people perceive their relation to the world around them. And so, yes, you get audiences that want to, expect to, see only set-piece cutscenes with no thrill of danger and only the alienation of CGI.

P.S What didn’t load?

At first I was gonna say that even in many CG-filled action movies, there is still an attempt for a sense of danger, at least, that comes through more convincingly than in the cinematic games that actively sabotage it by holding the player's hand. Then I remembered that the Harold Lloyds, Charles Chaplins, Jackie Chans and, indeed, Rowan Atkinsons, were always rare. Studios have been protecting their stars forever, letting no risk come to them. Really sticks out in some of the classics.

Has it gotten worse? Are actors allowed to perform fewer stunts now? Yes.

 

[JarlFrank]

Replacing your actor with a stuntman for dangerous scenes is one thing.

Replacing dangerous scenes entirely with CGI is another.

Films have turned into shit too thanks to CGI, you can spot everything being fake. Action scenes don't look real anymore.

 

[fork]

Movies/TV becoming unwatchable due to CGI started decades ago though.

 

[Victor1234]

True, but CGI used to be the dessert instead of the main course. Now it's literally the whole movie aside from pauses to deliver cringe one-liners.

Also, here's real stunt riding (not the Bluray unfortunately! Rio Grande, 1950):

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Films have turned into shit too thanks to CGI, you can spot everything being fake. Action scenes don't look real anymore.

just look at die hard 3 vs 4. masterpiece vs retardation galore.

 

[Rincewind]

Films have turned into shit too thanks to CGI, you can spot everything being fake. Action scenes don't look real anymore.

I was lucky enough to go and see the first Alien movie in a cinema a few years ago, and it still holds up amazingly well. Actually, it doesn't just "hold up"—it's a timeless masterpiece. That movie 100% uses practical effects and miniatures (if you discount some obviously computer generated stuff like the Nostromo's displays).

It's not all decline, though; the first series of the nu-Westworld TV show (which I'm quite fond of) uses a nice mixture of oldschool practical FX with modern CGI to good effect (pun intended). Modern CGI certainly has its place, but often it's just too overused.

https://www.vfxvoice.com/behind-the-vital-violent-visual-effects-in-westworld/

 

[Vlajdermen]

Replacing your actor with a stuntman for dangerous scenes is one thing.

Replacing dangerous scenes entirely with CGI is another.

Films have turned into shit too thanks to CGI, you can spot everything being fake. Action scenes don't look real anymore.

Like, do they think a good film director doesn't want the viewer to feel a sense of danger for the character as they walk along a ledge or whatever? The kind of automation, magnetic walking and invisible walls protecting the player nowadays are completely antithetical to what a movie scene with that same scenario tries to convey. Canned animations of the character squeezing between two walls again and again just make the thing feel more artificial and make you feel less like the adventurer in that movie you like, because of how the control is taken away from you.

But this is what modern film offers. Canned ‘animations’ and CGI, and everyone knows that there’s no risk to the actors and actresses whatsoever. People expect it all to be fake.

This may sound like a silly example, but it isn’t. I just recently watched a few interviews with Rowan Atkinson about the ‘Mr. Bean’ series. One scene in particular comes to mind, where he can’t fit a new armchair in his car, so he puts it on the roof and drives home sitting on it. This one:

It’s all real, he actually was just sitting in the chair as they drove around. Only in a few parts did they put the mini (with him still in the chair) on top of a flatbed truck and drive him around that way. And the shots where the car is driving right at the camera, were them just driving right at a camera man. None of this would ever be allowed today, because ‘what if the brakes don’t work?’. But of course they will! ‘Too risky, not allowed!’. By current day standards ‘Mr. Bean’ was a total cowboy production.
That doesn’t even address something like this:



Just analog reality, so pure you can taste it.
The truth is that faking everything has profound consequences for how people perceive their relation to the world around them. And so, yes, you get audiences that want to, expect to, see only set-piece cutscenes with no thrill of danger and only the alienation of CGI.

P.S What didn’t load?

At first I was gonna say that even in many CG-filled action movies, there is still an attempt for a sense of danger, at least, that comes through more convincingly than in the cinematic games that actively sabotage it by holding the player's hand. Then I remembered that the Harold Lloyds, Charles Chaplins, Jackie Chans and, indeed, Rowan Atkinsons, were always rare. Studios have been protecting their stars forever, letting no risk come to them. Really sticks out in some of the classics.

Has it gotten worse? Are actors allowed to perform fewer stunts now? Yes.

A snippet from an era when even the fake shit was real.

Also, Terminator 2 was turbo decline.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I wonder how many threads on the codex can be filed under "things were a lot better when I was 13"

 

[Rincewind]

I wonder how many threads on the codex can be filed under "things were a lot better when I was 13"

Clearly, we need more. Well, *I* need more, that's for sure!

 

[Viata]

first Alien movie

Still the best movie in that series. Rewatch it every once in a while, the rest I don't even touch.

 

[Rincewind]

first Alien movie

Still the best movie in that series. Rewatch it every once in a while, the rest I don't even touch.

I enjoyed Aliens too, but it's very meh from the 3rd movie onwards.

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

I wonder how many threads on the codex can be filed under "things were a lot better when I was 13"

Or just "thing were a lot better the first time I encountered them". A big part of my enjoyment of the original Wizardry, back in the day, came from the sense of open-ended possibility. It seemed like anything was possible. After playing enough video games you inevitably start to see the bones underneath and that erodes the sense of wonder. Maybe just file this under "getting old sucks but it still beats the alternative".

 

[Arthandas]

I've never played the original TR. Which version should I play? PS1, Saturn, or PC?

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...and-other-pc-games.90431/page-17#post-7888986

Here's the currently best FMV upscale, and remastered OST (download the Glidos version, it needs to be renamed* and converted to flac).
ReShade supports the fork of CRT Royale from RetroArch if you want a CRT filter.

* Just make a .bat file with this:

Spoiler

rename 01maintitle.mp3 Track02.mp3
copy 02ambient.mp3 Track57.mp3
rename 02ambient.mp3 Track05.mp3
rename 03rain.mp3 Track58.mp3
rename 04wind.mp3 Track59.mp3
rename 05heartbeat.mp3 Track60.mp3
rename 06natla.mp3 Track22.mp3
rename 07larson.mp3 Track23.mp3
rename 08scion.mp3 Track24.mp3
rename 09hieroglyph.mp3 Track25.mp3
rename 10revelationchorus1.mp3 Track03.mp3
rename 11maintitle2.mp3 Track04.mp3
rename 12chase1.mp3 Track06.mp3
rename 13revelation1.mp3 Track07.mp3
rename 14tension1.mp3 Track08.mp3
rename 15atmospheric.mp3 Track09.mp3
rename 16revelation2.mp3 Track10.mp3
rename 17incidental1.mp3 Track11.mp3
rename 18incidental2.mp3 Track12.mp3
rename 19shortsound.mp3 Track14.mp3
rename 20shortchorus1.mp3 Track15.mp3
rename 21tension2.mp3 Track16.mp3
rename 22shortchorus2.mp3 Track17.mp3
rename 23ominouschorus.mp3 Track18.mp3
rename 24revelationchorus2.mp3 Track19.mp3
rename 25chase2.mp3 Track20.mp3
rename 26revelation3.mp3 Track21.mp3
del 27.mp3
rename 28.mp3 Track26.mp3
rename 29.mp3 Track27.mp3
rename 30.mp3 Track28.mp3
rename 31.mp3 Track29.mp3
rename 32.mp3 Track30.mp3
rename 33.mp3 Track31.mp3
rename 34.mp3 Track32.mp3
rename 35.mp3 Track33.mp3
rename 36.mp3 Track34.mp3
rename 37.mp3 Track35.mp3
rename 38.mp3 Track36.mp3
rename 39.mp3 Track37.mp3
rename 40.mp3 Track38.mp3
rename 41.mp3 Track39.mp3
rename 42.mp3 Track40.mp3
rename 43.mp3 Track41.mp3
rename 44.mp3 Track42.mp3
rename 45.mp3 Track43.mp3
rename 46.mp3 Track44.mp3
rename 47.mp3 Track45.mp3
rename 48.mp3 Track46.mp3
rename 49.mp3 Track47.mp3
rename 50.mp3 Track48.mp3
rename 51.mp3 Track49.mp3
rename 52.mp3 Track50.mp3
rename 53.mp3 Track51.mp3
rename 54.mp3 Track52.mp3
rename 55.mp3 Track53.mp3
rename 56.mp3 Track54.mp3
rename 57.mp3 Track55.mp3
rename 58.mp3 Track56.mp3
rename 59.mp3 Track13.mp3

I played it on Saturn with save crystals in '97 or whenever it came out. I highly recommend this way of playing because it ramps up the tension and the stakes a hell of a lot. It also forces you to think, even if just a little bit.

More games should use this system today, or have it as a difficulty option.

Why do you need crystals to enforce that? Just because the game allows you to save anywhere doesn't mean you have to use it, hell you don't have to save at all.

 

[Rincewind]

Dunno man... just give me the original. This is a bit like recoloring movies.

 

[JarlFrank]

Films have turned into shit too thanks to CGI, you can spot everything being fake. Action scenes don't look real anymore.

just look at die hard 3 vs 4. masterpiece vs retardation galore.

It's funny because Die Hard 4 is exactly what I was thinking about. All three previous films are classic action flicks with practical effects, their action scenes feel great, fun movies throughout.
Die Hard 4 could have been a cool movie, if it weren't for those ridiculously stupid CGI action scenes. When I saw the first car chase scene and a car ended up bouncing around like a basketball, obviously animated by CGI with worse physics than even the video games of the time, I completely checked out.

This has stuck in my mind as the perfect example of why replacing all your action scenes with CGI sucks.

 

[Pound Meat]

In Die Hard PG-13's defense they had to come up with bloodless action scenes for their pussy movie, hence throwing cars at helicopters and immortal Maggie Q. (And before some homo says to watch the unrated cut, I'll say that the UC is just the theatrical version with some dubbed in swears and CG blood, so knock if off.)

Yippie-kay-yai Mother-- *gunshot*

 

[JarlFrank]

I wonder how many threads on the codex can be filed under "things were a lot better when I was 13"

Or just "thing were a lot better the first time I encountered them". A big part of my enjoyment of the original Wizardry, back in the day, came from the sense of open-ended possibility. It seemed like anything was possible. After playing enough video games you inevitably start to see the bones underneath and that erodes the sense of wonder. Maybe just file this under "getting old sucks but it still beats the alternative".

I never really got deep into the Tomb Raider games as a kid because I found them a bit too creepy lol
Only much later, in my mid 20s, did I decide to check them out again, and really enjoyed them. They were a breath of fresh air compared to the painfully handholdy and cinematic third person action games of the day.

So no, it's not "I like this thing because I played it as a kid!" it just so happens that a thing that was made when I was a kid is a thousand times superior to the shit we get today.
I first played through the classic Tomb Raider games in 2012.
I first played through Thief in 2009, at the age of 21, and it became my favorite game of all time. I never even liked stealth games before that.

The whole nostalgia argument is bullshit and you know it. The games back then were genuinely better in every single way.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

It's funny because Die Hard 4 is exactly what I was thinking about.

great minds think alike u_u

Is CGI even cheaper to make than live action?

funnily, no. apparently it's more expensive and more time consuming. but money goes to a single entity instead of being spread out for licenses, sets and stuntmen.

 

[Arthandas]

PC, it has save-anywhere which most people find better than the PS1's save crystal system. Runs fine at 1920x1080 in DOSBox too, and I always liked the keyboard controls more than the controller.

There's some fan patch with a few fixes which also resotres the original music, which you'll probably want to get since the soundtrack is a big part of the fun.

PC, it has save-anywhere which most people find better than the PS1's save crystal system.

Save-anywhere is popamole, I'll play the PS1 version.

You can disable/enable crystals in Tomb1Main which is the best way to play TR1.

 

[Ravielsk]

The whole nostalgia argument is bullshit and you know it. The games back then were genuinely better in every single way.

Its a cope not an argument. Like all copes it never made any sense as nostalgia is embellishment of previous experiences not a revision of the current ones. You remembering a experience from your childhood being better than it was really was does not somehow make your current experiences worse. The human mind is not infallible but that does not mean its somehow a literal sieve made up of nothing but holes.

On that note about the all encompassing fakery in movie making, I think the same concept could be broadly applied to video games as well. What keeps happening is that modern games are essentially faking themselves into existence while old games were just made what they are. The Tomb Raider running sequeces are the easiest example of this.

The 90s Lara is just put into a genuine gauntlet that is simply dangerous on its own and so even through its graphically downright sterile the sense of danger is still clearly communicated because the situation is actually legitimately dangerous. Modern Tomb Raider fakes this with all the particle effects, intense music and shaky cam yet there is functionally no actual danger or even potential to fail(unless you count literary putting the gamepad down as a "failstate") so it all comes across as phony and fake.
Fallout 1 is a legitimate roleplaying game because it simply lets you create your role and then plops you down into a world functionally built for playing said role. Fallout 4 fakes this by letting you distribute some points and make a face but then plops you down into a world that invalidates all of it by always scaling to whatever level your character is therefore invalidating the very concept of even making one, so of course it feels phony.

The irony in all of it is that all the fakery is more demanding than doing things legitimately. One graphically intense scene requires a small regiment of VFX artists to produce and yet carries no actual stakes while the just mechanically dangerous hallway can be done by one level designer over the weekend. Designing a world where everything scales is a trouble shooting nightmare where you have to rely on the community to catch all the bugs that arise from it because of the sheer number of possible screw-ups it can produce while one with fixed levels would entirely side-step the issue and take less time to make on top of it.

Its all driven by this insane need to make "the thing" for people who hate "the thing" but pretend to like the idea of it to make them feel better about themselves.

 

[Neuromancer]

Is CGI even cheaper to make than live action?

funnily, no. apparently it's more expensive and more time consuming. but money goes to a single entity instead of being spread out for licenses, sets and stuntmen.

There is no Yes or No answer IMO, but it depends very much on what things you are doing and to what extend you go into details.

Babylon 5 for example couldn't have been made with real models for the same budget.
Sure, from today's view the CG in that series looks dated - but on the other hand, models and mattpaintings could also look very fake, when not being done correctly.

 

[Arthandas]

The whole nostalgia argument is bullshit and you know it. The games back then were genuinely better in every single way.

Its a cope not an argument.

No it's not, he's completely right. Big games today are streamlined and popamolized so even 50 IQ Americans can enjoy them. Just look at TR reboots:
- you have a detailed map showing you where you are and where you need to go
- survival instincts showing you all interactables
- collectibles shown on the map
- Lara tells you solution to puzzles, unless you're playing on the highest difficulty setting
- long "gameplay" sections (climbing, walking, running etc) where you simply hold one or two buttons and the game plays by itself
- QTEs
- small, linear environments with no meaningful exploration
- crafting because all AAA games need to have crafting by law
- all climbing surfaces are marked with white paint, scratches etc

I forced myself to play it for almost 2 hours before I physically felt my braincells deteriorating, and I went to the original TR1 which I have never played before and I'm having a blast. No nostalgia involved. And it's not like this is some kind of exception, compare original Resident Evil 3 to the remake or God of War games to the reboot. Currently the games are made for retards first and true gamers second.

 

[Ravielsk]

No it's not, he's completely right.

Ehm, yeah thats what I said.