The Outer Worlds Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[mondblut]

That is generally paragon of bad writing right there.

If the game is saying that you are becoming a literal god and only this literal god can kill the enemy by shooting them in the gut with arrows/fireballs/bullets/swords, then it is already going overboard, confusing the mechanics with the story. I would rather something like AoD where you are the joe shmoe who is good at capitalizing a few skills to get what they want. You *can* become a god, yes, but then it comes out of the story as meaningful and not from the mechanics.

What does it have to with writing? You are tasked with killing a 20th level archwizard. In order to achieve that, you need to become 20th level yourself. If every village can then field a squad of 25th level cops in case that you start pickpocketing hobos, why the fuck did they bother you with that archwizard in the first place?

Oh, and protip, whatever you throw against the player, some inventive player will be able to prevail over, which leaves you with "a million rock cops fall, you die" copout. Which is far more despicable and career-ending failure than any number of "essential" NPCs.

 

[Luckmann]

[...]

But demanding "I want to be able to kill any non-hostile I want at random, AND I want to still be able to reach the end of the game regardless" is fucking entitlement personified.

[...]

This, however, I do agree completely with. Nevertheless, it should still not be that hard to do; an RPG shouldn't depend entirely on a given sequence of events. Even though the questlines were broken, Morrowind could still - however implausible - be "finished". That said, informing the player that they fucked up is pretty reasonable, and lets them make an informed decision. I can't say I'm a huge fan of it, but it's pretty reasonable, if only for those situations where the game spazzes out and something gets fucked in ways you did not plan.

Spoiler

 

[moon knight]

EDIT: This is for Infinitron, Obsidian shill (Megan Starks and Kate Dollarhyde are both writers for this project):

She's cute. Not bad at all.

The only issue I take with people like her is that often, in their (rightful) quest to fight sexism, they end up eliminating it from their games, resulting in shallow experiences where playing a female character is the same as playing a male one. Like Bioware in Dragon Age Origins, and they kinda justified it by saying that there was gender equality in Ferelden (only to then extend this to the whole world in 2 and Inquisition, because they are lazy and retarded) or Ubisoft with Assassin's Creed Odyssey, where it really makes no sense.

From the little I've played of PoE (which I didn't like because the world and the writing failed to engage me and it bored me real quick) there are no discriminations either.

 

[Infinitron]

But demanding "I want to be able to kill any non-hostile I want at random, AND I want to still be able to reach the end of the game regardless" is fucking entitlement personified.

Well...if the objective of the game's main quest is ultimately to kill some boss somewhere in the world, then "kill everyone I meet" by definition will also beat the game.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with modern games that have implemented kill-anybody. It's not a new thing. It's also not just an Obsidian thing, Larian's games do it too with Swen's "n+1" design philosophy.

Typically, you can completely lock yourself out of side quests by killing non-hostiles, but the main quest is broadly defined enough that you can't really fail it by killing people, or it offers a special path for those who have angered everybody.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

If the game is saying that you are becoming a literal god and only this literal god can kill the enemy by shooting them in the gut with arrows/fireballs/bullets/swords, then it is already going overboard, confusing the mechanics with the story. I would rather something like AoD where you are the joe shmoe who is good at capitalizing a few skills to get what they want. You *can* become a god, yes, but then it comes out of the story as meaningful and not from the mechanics.

What the fuck are you talking about. Advanced playthroughs in AoD are all about mechanics. Literally all you do is metagaming, metaknowledge and learning how to extract the most SP possible.

The only reason everybody feels like Joe Shmoe, is they spread their skills too thin only to end up sucking in all of them. Hybrid builds requires advanced knowledge. If you actually specialize for combat you will steamroll. Likewise, specialize for talky skills and you will blitzkrieg most of the quest without breaking a sweat.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

If the game is saying that you are becoming a literal god and only this literal god can kill the enemy by shooting them in the gut with arrows/fireballs/bullets/swords, then it is already going overboard, confusing the mechanics with the story. I would rather something like AoD where you are the joe shmoe who is good at capitalizing a few skills to get what they want. You *can* become a god, yes, but then it comes out of the story as meaningful and not from the mechanics.

What the fuck are you talking about. Advanced playthroughs in AoD are all about mechanics. Literally all you do is metagaming, metaknowledge and learning how to extract the most SP possible.

The only reason everybody feels like Joe Shmoe, is they spread their skills too thin only to end up sucking in all of them. Hybrid builds requires advanced knowledge. If you actually specialize for combat you will steamroll. Likewise, specialize for talky skills and you will blitzkrieg most of the quest without breaking a sweat.

You are confusing the story of AoD with the Mechanics of combat. In AoD, you do not win Godhood by being the biggest muscle in town. You win by being clever and finding all the clues (the surgery kit, all the right people and locations).

 

[Parabalus]

Anyway... didn't that very Morrowind have a window essentially stating "hey genius, you have just killed a key character, now you won't be able to finish the game, you moron. now you may keep wandering around aimlessly if you wish, of course, but why not do the right thing for once and fucking reload?" Frankly, I don't see how is that superior to "Todd Howard is essential! Todd Howard is essential! Todd Howard is essential!". At least the later can inspire some funny memes.

This is a lie though, you could still finish it (kill big baddie), but it took a lot more work. Much better than just making NPCs essential.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

If the game is saying that you are becoming a literal god and only this literal god can kill the enemy by shooting them in the gut with arrows/fireballs/bullets/swords, then it is already going overboard, confusing the mechanics with the story. I would rather something like AoD where you are the joe shmoe who is good at capitalizing a few skills to get what they want. You *can* become a god, yes, but then it comes out of the story as meaningful and not from the mechanics.

What the fuck are you talking about. Advanced playthroughs in AoD are all about mechanics. Literally all you do is metagaming, metaknowledge and learning how to extract the most SP possible.

The only reason everybody feels like Joe Shmoe, is they spread their skills too thin only to end up sucking in all of them. Hybrid builds requires advanced knowledge. If you actually specialize for combat you will steamroll. Likewise, specialize for talky skills and you will blitzkrieg most of the quest without breaking a sweat.

You are confusing the story of AoD with the Mechanics of combat. In AoD, you do not win Godhood by being the biggest muscle in town. You win by being clever and finding all the clues (the surgery kit, all the right people and locations).

You win being clever...with mechanics, yeah.

 

[Quillon]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be able to fuck up your quest-lines and become helpless. Nobody said it was or should be smart to kill everyone, just that it should be possible.

You ending up having to deal with the mess you made when you decided to shit the bed and act like a retard is a very real consequence of a very meaningful choice. It is also a far more reasonable deterrent to special NPC's being killed than "lmao no you can't".

But demanding "I want to be able to kill any non-hostile I want at random, AND I want to still be able to reach the end of the game regardless" is fucking entitlement personified.

What the fuck? There is no "right way" of playing games; if you want fail states for killing characters then there should be fail states for not killing characters also: "You didn't kill this evil non-hostile dude when you had the chance now he fucked the world up & you can't complete your quest" how nice. If the game lets you do something then tell you that you failed for doing so is bad design. People don't go around killing non-hostile NPCs cos they are incompetent, they wanna see its impact on the world, they wanna see if its possible or they do it just for fun and some retards call it is retarded to play that way(that the developers made it possible) and should be punished.

Anyway, we don't demand shit. Developers make their own bed; if they let me shoot that guy and made that guy "essential" ofc I'll complain and demand that either make it possible to kill him without a fail state or don't let me shoot the guy in the first place.(by making him unreachable or with general rule like "you can't attack civilians". It would still be retarded if I can kill the guy standing next to the one that can't be attacked/untargetable etc.)

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

If the game is saying that you are becoming a literal god and only this literal god can kill the enemy by shooting them in the gut with arrows/fireballs/bullets/swords, then it is already going overboard, confusing the mechanics with the story. I would rather something like AoD where you are the joe shmoe who is good at capitalizing a few skills to get what they want. You *can* become a god, yes, but then it comes out of the story as meaningful and not from the mechanics.

What the fuck are you talking about. Advanced playthroughs in AoD are all about mechanics. Literally all you do is metagaming, metaknowledge and learning how to extract the most SP possible.

The only reason everybody feels like Joe Shmoe, is they spread their skills too thin only to end up sucking in all of them. Hybrid builds requires advanced knowledge. If you actually specialize for combat you will steamroll. Likewise, specialize for talky skills and you will blitzkrieg most of the quest without breaking a sweat.

You are confusing the story of AoD with the Mechanics of combat. In AoD, you do not win Godhood by being the biggest muscle in town. You win by being clever and finding all the clues (the surgery kit, all the right people and locations).

You win being clever...with mechanics, yeah.

Yeah, no.

That's literally what it is, dude. You win by manipulating the SP and skill check mechanics. It's pure metagaming, there's no wololo story that naturally evolves around you.

 

[imweasel]

She's cute. Not bad at all.

Check her other pics on Twitter. She isn't very attractive and fits the stereotype perfectly.

The only issue I take with people like her is that often, in their (rightful) quest to fight sexism

These rug munching radical feminists are just pushing a regressive far-left agenda. That's it.

Before some lefttard imbecile accuses me misogyny: I have a daughter and a wife. I love them to death and believe they can do anything, obviously in consideration of the fact that there are biological differences between the sexes. That goes for all women, except for these daft far-left crazies, of course.

 

[Flou]

The only issue I take with people like her is that often, in their (rightful) quest to fight sexism, they end up eliminating it from their games, resulting in shallow experiences where playing a female character is the same as playing a male one. Like Bioware in Dragon Age Origins, and they kinda justified it by saying that there was gender equality in Ferelden (only to then extend this to the whole world in 2 and Inquisition, because they are lazy and retarded) or Ubisoft with Assassin's Creed Odyssey, where it really makes no sense.

Shouldn't the project director / lead narrative designer make sure that the characters make sense in the context of the game. For example Kingdom Come, there's no black people around because historically it would not make sense for anyone looking for historical accuracy in such game.
The Lead and PD need give the writers enough direction to stop them from hanging themselves with writing that doesn't fit in the game. Sure, the individual writer should recognize this by themselves as well but with proper management you can edumacate those writers who are trying too hard to put their personal believes into a game that doesn't have room for such nonsense.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

That's literally what it is, dude. You win by manipulating the SP and skill check mechanics. It's pure metagaming, there's no wololo story that naturally evolves around you.

I think you went into this argument feet first. In AoD you can *actually* become a god. The way to do that is not via killing everyone though, which you can also do. The way to do that is to find out about all the clues. The argument I am trying to make is that all games do not need to have a situation where you reach ultimate power through weapon damage, but rather by the means of story taking you there. Of course in AoD you can min-max and do almost everything (especially with the Thief background) but the point is just that: that the game allows you to express power in a variety of ways, by becoming a leader, a warrior, a god, or being good at sneaking around. That is refreshing and inviting.

 

[Chippy]

Chris Avellone did the main stuff on PK

I'm pretty sure his Kingmaker stuff amounts to "additional writing" besides Nok-Nok.

Yeah, I think I read an interview with Owlcat where they said they took his advice on how to get the tone right for us cowboys westerers. Which I think they did really well. I'm just wondering where the ratio will fall in setting the tone between Cainarsky (is that right? sounds like a bad cop movie title) as directors and this mob of writers who may or may not be a horde of blue haired, fat, man-hating SJWs. And who might not have even played Fallout and Arcanum.

 

[Glenda Glenn]

But demanding "I want to be able to kill any non-hostile I want at random, AND I want to still be able to reach the end of the game regardless" is fucking entitlement personified.

That depends on what kind of an end it is. If it's an end that informs you about your failure then it's perfectly acceptable.

Essential NPCs are a cheap lazy way to avoid adding the content to handle their death. It fucking kills the immersion and makes you question why the fuck you've been playing the game. Give Braith an axe she can easily take on Alduin. Fucking retarded.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Anyway... didn't that very Morrowind have a window essentially stating "hey genius, you have just killed a key character, now you won't be able to finish the game, you moron. now you may keep wandering around aimlessly if you wish, of course, but why not do the right thing for once and fucking reload?" Frankly, I don't see how is that superior to "Todd Howard is essential! Todd Howard is essential! Todd Howard is essential!". At least the later can inspire some funny memes.

I don't know what you're talking about:

Spoiler

 

[moon knight]

Check her other pics on Twitter. She isn't very attractive and fits the stereotype perfectly.

I shouldn't have done that, I saw she retweed this.

Obsidian is so fucked.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

That's literally what it is, dude. You win by manipulating the SP and skill check mechanics. It's pure metagaming, there's no wololo story that naturally evolves around you.

I think you went into this argument feet first. In AoD you can *actually* become a god. The way to do that is not via killing everyone though, which you can also do. The way to do that is to find out about all the clues. The argument I am trying to make is that all games do not need to have a situation where you reach ultimate power through weapon damage, but rather by the means of story taking you there. Of course in AoD you can min-max and do almost everything (especially with the Thief background) but the point is just that: that the game allows you to express power in a variety of ways, by becoming a leader, a warrior, a god, or being good at sneaking around. That is refreshing and inviting.

Becoming a leader - play a bard
Becoming a warrior - play a fighter
Becoming good at sneaking - play a thief

Thrilling stuff, no RPG ever did this.

And in half of them that were ever released you get to kill some sort of deity which makes you a god by any definition anyways.

 

[Glenda Glenn]

Obsidian is so fucked.

I'm sure she'd be happier if she was employed by Bioware of late. Definitely, not a good sign.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

Becoming a leader - play a bard
Becoming a warrior - play a fighter
Becoming good at sneaking - play a thief

Thrilling stuff, no RPG ever did this.

In principle yeah, but very few games *acknowledge* that your character has made so and so choices. i.e. A bard that actually inspires people mechanically is treated as John Doe by everyone outside of combat. AoD avoids that. If you kill a lot of people, you are actually feared. Or if you keep your word, people trust you, or if you are good at Lore you figure out things that change the ending radically. And I mean radically, and not pass a check and resolve the same situation without combat.

Thus, in the same way, if you kill a lot of civilians, the game should also acknowledge that and provide a response. If the game allows you to become so powerful that no matter how many people attack you you can simply buzz them off, it is a game with a bad setting/writing. Such things are fine in Serious Sam, but out of place in good RPGs.

 

[mondblut]

if you want fail states for killing characters then there should be fail states for not killing characters also: "You didn't kill this evil non-hostile dude when you had the chance now he fucked the world up & you can't complete your quest" how nice.

That's called "quest timers". Something generally not looked kindly upon, but still appreciated by a few on the codex because it "adds urgency" or some shit.

Nice job equating action with inaction, though.

 

[mondblut]

Well...if the objective of the game's main quest is ultimately to kill some boss somewhere in the world, then "kill everyone I meet" by definition will also beat the game.

Said boss tends to be locked behind a wall of quest triggers a mile high. Triggers that have to be flipped via NPC interactions

I'm not sure how familiar you are with modern games that have implemented kill-anybody. It's not a new thing. It's also not just an Obsidian thing, Larian's games do it too with Swen's "n+1" design philosophy.

I think of casting Armageddon in Ultima 7 or rampaging through friendlies in UUW (funny enough, UUW2 made the inhabitants of the castle unkillable). By about 1995 I've learned my lessons.

 

[mondblut]

The Lead and PD need give the writers enough direction to stop them from hanging themselves with writing that doesn't fit in the game.

No Lead or PD wants to be crucified by the twatter lynch mob. The moment you let SJWs in your company, you are taken hostage and have to comply with their most inane demands, or else. Just ask Riot.

 

[Quillon]

Annoying VO tho.

 

[santino27]

Check her other pics on Twitter. She isn't very attractive and fits the stereotype perfectly.

I shouldn't have done that, I saw she retweed this.

Obsidian is so fucked.

To be fair, if you liked DA:I, you'd probably be more prone to liking DA2 than DA:O, on account of your complete failure in taste and standards.

(Not that I loved DA:O either.)