The Outer Worlds Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Trashos]

That's interesting .. it sounds like you prefer a very granular system, which I guess is OK for some people ... but even when dealing with hard numbers there's nothing wrong with a spectrum. I much prefer the option to invest 48% in Throwing instead of having 0%, 25%, 50%, 100%. Fractions are numbers too.

That's not what I meant, eg I like FONV's out-of-100 skill system just fine. I just wouldn't be able to read it fast from bars.

In my previous post, the main issue is whether I know the exact numerical value, and the other issue is whether I can read said value fast. If it's a bar that goes to high numbers, I can't read it fast. But if it goes up to 5, as in Arcanum, I can.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Also, "doesn't preclude complex character development in any way", you say? What about perk requirements? Weapon skills/stats requirements to use certain equipment?

I don't see a problem with this. "Minimum STR required: Fair (the light green area)/Poor (orange area)/etc."

Anyway, I don't believe this will even be an issue, because character development won't be complex, and we'll be lucky if we even get character creation at all. It's not like Tim Cain sat down with the intention of making a hardcore old-school CRPG with shapes, realized that shapes wouldn't accommodate complexity, and thought "oh, looks like we'll have to simplify." He's not that stupid. If he wanted to make a CRPG too granular for his shapes ideas, then the shapes wouldn't be in.

If the purpose of showing these shapes is to ease people who aren't into RPGs in the first place to play the game, what other part of the game is being affected by this design decision and how much will it impact the final experience?

If this design decision is in, then it's in, and the game will be worse off for it, shapes or no shapes.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Not to belabor this point again, but Tim was talking about triangles in that presentation. The triangles would be kind of a matrix that represents how your best physical or mental stats compare to each other in character creation. One physical triangle, one mental triangle, six attributes.

Your build could be a triangle with the point at the top: that’s one maxed out stat, and two mediocre ones. So the equivalent of 10 INT, 5 PER, 5 CHA in SPECIAL. Or you could flip the triangle, you get two stats at roughly 7.5 and dump a third one to 2.5. The way he described it, it sounded like your attributes would go from 1-4 (crap, ok, good, great). Then you put your preferred stats at the points of the triangle.

Not only does this seem perfectly fine to me, flipping the triangle makes a lot of intuitive sense as a way to communicate the kind of build you’re making—is this a specialist who’s great at one thing and mediocre at everything else or a generalist who’s good at two things but totally shit at a third one?

There will be a character sheet with numbers. They’ve talked about how to invest points in your skills for fuck’s sake. Skills are grouped together, so you can put points in the whole grouping until a particular skill hits 50, at which point you need to invest in it individually. You will know they exact numerical value otherwise they wouldn’t have made this under 50 over 50 distinction. Just read the big gameinformer piece where they describe this stuff.

 

[Trashos]

The bars in Arcanum are at least easy to translate fast to *exact* numbers.

As opposed to what? The "shapes" windmill? Bars are also shapes. I can't even envision a model of shapes without underlying numbers, and easily discernible numbers at that.
I've no idea what this mythical shape looks like to you and Black Angel, but to me it looks something like this thing on the upper left (no, not the face):

This kind of shape is easily readable at a glance, and doesn't preclude complex character development in any way.

Ha, I happen to be a big Football Manager fan (although the last one I played was a few years ago), and used to do beta testing for them a decade ago. I am familiar with this screen and the shape.

Look, no, I can't read that shape in less than twenty seconds, it gives me a headache. On the other hand, I can read numbers fast. I don't mind the shape being there if it helps other people. But my main point is that I need access to the exact numbers. If, eg, Sports Interactive did away with the numbers and only kept the shape, I wouldn't want to play the game at all.

But see how smart they are? They have both!

 

[Black Angel]

I don't see a problem with this. "Minimum STR required: Fair (the light green area)/Poor (orange area)/etc."

How is that *better* than "Minimum STR requirement: 7"?

Not to belabor this point again, but Tim was talking about triangles in that presentation. The triangles would be kind of a matrix that represents how your best physical or mental stats compare to each other in character creation. One physical triangle, one mental triangle, six attributes.

Your build could be a triangle with the point at the top: that’s one maxed out stat, and two mediocre ones. So the equivalent of 10 INT, 5 PER, 5 CHA in SPECIAL. Or you could flip the triangle, you get two stats at roughly 7.5 and dump a third one to 2.5. The way he described it, it sounded like your attributes would go from 1-4 (crap, ok, good, great). Then you put your preferred stats at the points of the triangle.

Not only does this seem perfectly fine to me, flipping the triangle makes a lot of intuitive sense as a way to communicate the kind of build you’re making—is this a specialist who’s great at one thing and mediocre at everything else or a generalist who’s good at two things but totally shit at a third one?

There will be a character sheet with numbers. They’ve talked about how to invest points in your skills for fuck’s sake. Skills are grouped together, so you can put points in the whole grouping until a particular skill hits 50, at which point you need to invest in it individually. You will know they exact numerical value otherwise they wouldn’t have made this under 50 over 50 distinction. Just read the big gameinformer piece where they describe this stuff.

I still don't see how those are *better* than what we got in Fallout, Arcanum, and Bloodlines. Which reminds me, one of the underlying principles for these decisions is this:

• Mistake #1 - Steep Learning Curves: Tim thinks character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex. He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system that uses geometric shapes to visualize attributes.

If he *actually* thinks Fallout and Arcanum's character creation is 'too complex', how do you think this one's going to be simplified in regards to alleged 'over-complexity' in his past creation?

 

[Strange Fellow]

How is that *better* than "Minimum STR requirement: 7"?

Never said it was.

If he *actually* thinks Fallout and Arcanum's character creation is 'too complex', how do you think this one's going to be simplified in regards to alleged 'over-complexity' in his past creation?

It'll be p mediocre, probably. But not because of the shapes. The reason why I think this game will be popamole is quotes like that one. If a screenshot full of shapes is more palatable to modern audiences than one full of numbers, then I'm perfectly fine with it, because it won't affect me either way.

 

[Zombra]

I can't read that shape in less than twenty seconds, it gives me a headache. On the other hand, I can read numbers fast. I don't mind the shape being there if it helps other people. But my main point is that I need access to the exact numbers. If, eg, Sports Interactive did away with the numbers and only kept the shape, I wouldn't want to play the game at all. But see how smart they are? They have both!

This is all fine, as you accept (and even emphasize, thanks) the important point, which is that certain framing is easier for you to process. Preferring your native language is only natural. It's good to bear in mind that it's not the only language, and not even necessarily the objectively best one.

 

[Black Angel]

How is that *better* than "Minimum STR requirement: 7"?

Never said it was.

So it's not *better*. Why replace the numbers, again?

 

[Strange Fellow]

How is that *better* than "Minimum STR requirement: 7"?

Never said it was.

So it's not *better*. Why replace the numbers, again?

Sorry about my awful terrible habit of posting stuff and then editing it straight away.

The reason is so you don't scare away the casuals, of course. Does it work? Who knows. Market analysts, probably. Maybe Tim Cain knows, too.

 

[Trashos]

This is all fine, as you accept (and even emphasize, thanks) the important point, which is that certain framing is easier for you to process. Preferring your native language is only natural. It's good to bear in mind that it's not the only language, and not even necessarily the objectively best one.

...which also happens to be the language of everyone who has played RPGs before. So it's not just one of the languages, equal to any other. If Tim abandons this language for another one, won't the outcry be justified? I think it will be.

Anyway, the solution is exceptionally simple. Use both languages, as Football Manager does in the pic above. Why betray your older fans?

There will be a character sheet with numbers. They’ve talked about how to invest points in your skills for fuck’s sake. Skills are grouped together, so you can put points in the whole grouping until a particular skill hits 50, at which point you need to invest in it individually. You will know they exact numerical value otherwise they wouldn’t have made this under 50 over 50 distinction. Just read the big gameinformer piece where they describe this stuff.

OK, I have asked before for directions, and I wasn't given any. Where is it?

 

[Infinitron]

OK, I have asked before for directions, and I wasn't given any. Where is it?

Spoiler

 

[Trashos]

Spoiler

That does sound good, provided that they are talking about what the player sees and not just the underlying mechanics.

 

[Infinitron]

I just realized that the header "Taking Shape" might be a hint.

"The way you set those up". Did they put the character creation system under NDA? >_>

 

[conan_edw]

 

[Mr. Hiver]

This is the first good bit of news about the game so far.

I like the system even if it has a few minor flaws mentioned in that article. Like hitting something but not causing any damage at all - based solely on some starting attribute(s) being bellow average.

The system has enough numbers in it but is not solely based on often boring single number increases to skills.
You decide what your attributes will be in a general sense as bellow average, average, good, etc and that gives you the starting skills points.
Since in the usual systems the differences between single numbers of attributes is either unclear or minimal in effect you may as well round it up.

Grouping skills into several categories that is a good approach and you still have specific skill specialization by single numbers after a threshold. Seems alright.

If they just make it so you get Flaw choice on receiving a lot of damage and a lot of bad status effects from specific enemies - not just on fighting some type a lot, that would make it more plausible.
And its a free choice so you dont have to take any, which is good. It would be nice if you could get flaws from other content you fail at a lot not just combat, but that would depend on what else they have.

The visuals are still color burn crap. Really a shame they couldnt create environments in the art style of the illustrations. That would have been a great plus for the overall feel of the game.
And it would fit with the setting and main themes much better than what they went for.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.gameinformer.com/ask-aw...ns-for-our-the-outer-worlds-podcast-interview

Upcoming episode - presumably not the next one, which is in two days.

I guess the last thing to be released will be the Feargus interview.

 

[undecaf]

Spoiler

That's certainly an interesting read.

Still no word on how combat skills work? Just damage increments or Cain's recoil recovery too?

 

[Infinitron]

That's certainly an interesting read.

Still no word on how combat skills work? Just damage increments or Cain's recoil recovery too?

It's an old read, guess lots of people missed it: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...leonard-boyarsky.119594/page-157#post-5998636

Nah, they haven't gotten into that level of detail. Probably not the kind of thing anybody will ever ask in an interview except the Codex, tbh.

 

[undecaf]

Nah, they haven't gotten into that level of detail. Probably not the kind of thing anybody will ever ask in an interview except the Codex, tbh.

Codex interview when?

 

[Infinitron]

If he *actually* thinks Fallout and Arcanum's character creation is 'too complex', how do you think this one's going to be simplified in regards to alleged 'over-complexity' in his past creation?

He probably meant "too complex" not as in "difficult to figure out the UI" but "possible to fuck up". I remember there was this thread on 4chan where the guy got stuck in the endgame of Fallout 2, turns out he tagged and almost exclusively leveled Doctor, Barter and some third useless skill. No idea how he got to the oil rig, but he got stuck on Horrigan. So it's probably gonna be more streamlined and hand-holdy.

Nah, I think it's really neither of those things.

What it's really primarily about is speed - how FAST a newbie player can understand and finish character creation. Developers these days are terrified of losing players in the first hour. They don't want to scare them away with a face full of numbers, with a character creation process that looks like it'll take an hour to understand and make your mind what you want. It really is that banal.

So in theory there's room for an "easy to learn, hard to master" sort of thing, although of course it never quite turns out that way. But who was expecting this game to be difficult anyway?

 

[Simple Simon]

Nah, I think it's really neither of those things.

What it's really primarily about is speed - how FAST a newbie player can understand and finish character creation. Developers these days are terrified of losing players in the first hour. They don't want to scare them away with a face full of numbers, with a character creation process that looks like it'll take an hour to understand and make your mind what you want. It really is that banal.

So in theory there's room for an "easy to learn, hard to master" sort of thing, although of course it never quite turns out that way. But who was expecting this game to be in any way difficult anyway?

Interesting, that's like the opposite of the approach Pathfinder: Kingmaker took. You could spend hours on the character creator.

 

[Yosharian]

Nah, I think it's really neither of those things.

What it's really primarily about is speed - how FAST a newbie player can understand and finish character creation. Developers these days are terrified of losing players in the first hour. They don't want to scare them away with a face full of numbers, with a character creation process that looks like it'll take an hour to understand and make your mind what you want. It really is that banal.

So in theory there's room for an "easy to learn, hard to master" sort of thing, although of course it never quite turns out that way. But who was expecting this game to be in any way difficult anyway?

Interesting, that's like the opposite of the approach Pathfinder: Kingmaker took. You could spend hours on the character creator.

It's almost like Kingmaker respects its core playerbase instead of pushing them aside in the hopes of attracting popamole retards who don't buy RPGs

 

[Infinitron]

Comparing this game with Kingmaker is pretty apples and oranges

Speaking of which, was there ever an attempt of preset characters, barring F1/2? That seems like a good solution, zoomer retards pick the face they like the most, spergs get their excel spreadsheets. Auto-leveling will keep zoomers from seeing the scary numbers.

It seems modern developers don't believe in this as a solution. They think players, even popamole players, will always want to create their characters, and they're probably right.

 

[Thonius]

I just designed skillcheks for Tim's shapes stats. Sure it's more complex( it's shape an colors) but if you try it you'll never come back to old boring numbers! ( Still prototype )

Spoiler

 

[Yosharian]

Why is this exciting again?

Stats and attributes are never exciting, doesn't matter if they are numnbers or shapes.

This is a worrying statement