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4X The Unsurpassed Brian Reynolds' Alpha Centauri thread

Favorite Faction?


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Hellraiser

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I'm struggling to trigger GA on Hive atm.
I got less eco to juice up the talents.
So I'm just concluding, Hive popbooming doesn't work as well as other factions. Correct?

It works even on transcend and I would argue it is easier than Morgan, but still worse than everybody else.

I did it in vanilla when I played Hive in PBEM. I had the human genome project though, that is a must apparently for Hive to GA on transcend (something about odd numbers of pop being harder to GA with psych due to the 50% talent requirement, since practically you need slightly more than 50%, for example 4 talents at 7 pop). Also got the ascetic virtues, but probably after the first GA pop boom I did. If I understand +3 police correctly (police state plus ascetic virtues) it means 1 police unit squashes 2 drones each, so total -6 at 3 police units which is a fucking lot. If not it is still 3 drones less. Probably would need to test it some day, unlikely I will play Hive again in the long run.

EDIT: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3314.0
Seems both non-lethal methods and +3 police mean "+1 drone squashed per unit". And the max you can milk it for is 9 drones skull-bashed into working if you have non-lethal methods units stacked at +3 police. As noted by the furfag avart user in the topic, this is unusual since bonuses tend to stack multiplicatively and not additively in SMAC, so you would expect it to be 4 drones brutalized per unit up to 12 for 3 non-lethal methods units at +3 police in a base. Also useful for simple econ-wealth morgan GA pop-booming with ascetic virtues, since you can milk that for 4 squashed drones with 2 police non-lethal methods skullbashers, which could save a lot of energy.

Anyway you get -3 drones from having 3 units at a base at +2 police, since running fundie makes almost no sense as Yang. Compared to Morgan with simple economy and thus 0 police, that is like getting an extra facility as strong as a rec commons for just 3 rows of minerals (plus support, but no energy maintenance), in addition to the actual rec commons. If you compare with free market Morgan then Yang is even better off. The extra money Morgan makes needs to go into more psych to neutralize drones anyway, since he lacks the pure skull-crushing force of Hive police.

If you get the longetivity vaccine you get -2 drones since you will need to run planned anyway to boom, which is another free rec commons at every base. Morgan's GA boom benefits from vaccine only if he runs simple, which usually is not enough since he needs energy for that psych budget (depends on the income difference between market+wealth vs just wealth, as econ past +2 grants mostly commerce, and if everybody hates your guts like the AI that will do nothing).

So Hive has a far easier time removing drones than Morgan, meaning less cash needs to be dumped into psych, just enough for it to get you the 50% talents since you should have no drones anyway without even touching the psych slider.

If you lack energy to dump into psych you always have specialists and doctors can be assigned in any base size. Just need to feed them. Or build a +% psych bonus facility like a research hospital, or tree farm if the hospital is already in the base to get more bang for your back, the former are mandatory anyway due to the labs they give and -1 drone. Tree farms are a good later pick also due to +50% econ and lifting the mineral limit with each one you build, allowing you to really see Yang's industry turn the Hive into a monster, even if you have no forests. They are at any rate a better choice than centauri preseves that also raise the "clean" minerals limit. Seriously, look at this:

http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Centauri_Preserve

http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Tree_Farm

Just two more rows and one more energy maintenance for tree farms. The additional tree farm benefits are way better than +1 worm morale.
 
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RK47

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Will try again...

b9jaSmh.png


:x
 
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Absinthe

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Still not clear on the pop booming for Morgan.
This is only executable after achieving golden age + creche + democracy correct?
Correct, but Children's Creches and Democracy are the same tech. Also, achieving a golden age in a base gives it +1 ECON, which means you have +2 ECON without any SE settings.

But with the Hab Complex requirement, I have to wait till I'm mid-game before I can start doing that correctly?
You can do it before then to get bases up to 4 pop, but that's not as valuable. If you are doing golden ages as Morgan before Hab Complexes, it's probably because you wanted to get +2 ECON in your bases without SEs.

Even so, with pop booming, the drone suppression without a police force is proving to be a pain on Transcend.
I spent 20% Budget on PSI just to get 1 talent for the 1 drone at 2nd pop followed by Rec Commons after the Rec. Tanks & Energy Banks are out.
If I can do golden age pop booms in PBEM multiplayer as Yang, it is definitely doable as Morgan.

It seems like I'm maxing out my cheap drone suppression options at Pop 4 already. And that's assuming I have enough energy income to get the PSY slider to kick in.
You can move psych slider to 100% for one turn for the golden ages to kick in then move it down as the golden ages sustain themselves with superior energy tile yields. Also Human Genome Project and Virtual World make golden ages a lot easier. High energy tiles and facilities with psych bonuses (Hologram Theater, Research Hospital, Tree Farm, etc.) all help too.

In regular SMAC supply crawlers make booming very easy since you can just use specialists or get high energy if you want to do psych slider booms. With Human Genome Project or a Paradise Garden (or just playing Lal) to give automatic talents and crawlers to provide nutrients, you can assign every citizen other than your 1 talent into specialists too and because all your non-specialists citizens are now talents, you are in a permanent golden age.

Setting up this infrastructure takes a lot of minerals and credit spending. Is it worth it?
It is, once you have hab complexes. And once you have Hab Domes it's mandatory until the psych caps make you cry, but at that point you should have Eudaimonia anyway.

Creche and demo you would anyway, same as everyone but Yang. Obviously demo is a pain as morgan due to the support issues, on top of the fucking size 4 limit in vanilla, who at Firaxis thought that was a good idea.
Morgan is rather strong when he gets going, honestly. Extreme income is his strength and it's a potent strength too. Another crazy thing Morgan can do is Democracy+Green+Wealth and throw 100% of sliders into labs or energy with 4 EFFIC.

GA is a bit trickier to pull off and the actual hard part, not impossible but obviously the effort is high. Hive, while making less money and fucked from effic perspective, has an easier time to GA pop boom due to being able to run police state-planned for booms which gives them extra police drone squashing, but they have less options for the psych slider high. Also they can get the longetivity vaccine for extra -2 drones with planned. Lastly they don't have to deal with hab complexes as soon as vanilla Morgan and start with +1 growth anyway.
Hive methods for GAs basically involve terraforming for high energy yield (which is usually a good idea since that affects your tech speed too) and SPs. In PBEM I had Human Genome Project and Longevity Vaccine (plus owing to Kalin's fuck-up the rest of us were all playing at Librarian difficulty, not that it mattered with the aforementioned SPs and Police State) on top of a giant army of terraformers ensuring all my bases had strong energy output, so golden age booms were pretty easy for me.

Morgan might not be able to do Police State+Planned booms, but he can do Democracy+Free Market+Knowledge booms (With +1 ECON from GA this raises your ECON to the cap of 4, and as Morgan this puts you at +3 Commerce) with psych sliders. High energy is high psych and Morgan gets high EFFIC too, which is fewer bureaucracy drones and even more energy (which again converts into more psych), unlike Yang who is stuck at 0 EFFIC and -2 ECON (-1 ECON with GA, 0 ECON with Wealth value on top) doing all his pop booming shit. Yang is more likely to need to throw Psych to 100% for a few turns of booming, although last game I had everything from SPs to strong terraforming to psych multiplying facilities (Tree Farms + Research Hospitals, no Hologram Theaters though, as I will always skip them if possible because the 3 maintenance drain is shit if you can get your drones suppressed anyway), which meant that 40% psych was the most I needed and usually 20% could keep GA going in a lot of bases.

To trigger GA you need three conditions, talents equal to at least half of the base's population, a base size of at least 3 and no drones.

http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Golden_Age

Getting talents is arguably the easier part, for every 2 energy going into psych one worker becomes a talent. If you run out of workers the psych budget slider will start turning drones to workers. This sounds simple enough but the reality is the psych slider alone is the hardest way to trigger GA, because it removes drones as a last resort, so you need obscene amounts of energy or lots of +psych facilities.

http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Psych
There is another problem too: Psych is hard capped at 2 psych per citizen. Any excess psych is wasted, so you need facilities to make up the shortfall. Usually 80-100% psych sliders with basic drone suppression will get your golden ages going even if your infrastructure sucks, but it does help to have a police unit and rec commons.

With that out of the way this is what you can do in practice:

1. drone reduction facilities, rec commons and hologram theater are a must. Both reduce the number of drones by a flat amount of 2. Theater also gives +50% psych to whatever energy is going into psych at the base, that translates to one extra talent (or one drone less) for every 2 created directly by energy diverted to psych. Problem is the theatre has a maintenance fee of 3, but that still is more economical than putting that 3 energy into psych to reduce drones, plus it really is the next fastest to build drone suppression solution after police scouts or the rec commons.

Apart from that the research hospital kills one drones and grants more +% psych. Not sure if there are any other facilities reducing drones directly apart from the punishment sphere. There's also the longetivity vaccine, but you can't run planned for -2 drones, green lowers growth, so you would need to run simple econ. Probably better to just go market as explained below, unless you go wealth, simple-wealth-vaccine would give +2 drone reduction (one from vaccine, one from police) compared to market which is a lot.
You missed Nanohospital, which is basically a second Research Hospital (+50% Labs, +25% Psych, -1 drone, reduces genetic warfare pop losses). Punishment Sphere is the worst option possible for golden ages of course, since it permanently nerve staples your base (so it cannot have talents, meaning it cannot have golden ages).

Vaccine is kinda shit for Morgan. I wouldn't recommend building it. It's basically +50% econ in a single base in Market and 1 drone suppressed in Green, unless you sit in simple economics. Sitting in simple economics sucks, but it does let you retain your 1 police unit (so 2 drones suppressed with non-lethal methods) when pop booming. On the other hand Free Market gives your base +4 energy and +2 commerce while in a golden age (or when combined with Wealth), which is more psych with sliders and psych multiplying facilities, so sitting in Simple is really not necessary. Still, until you have clean reactors (or if you have independent units), leaving military units sitting in base can be a pretty ugly support cost, so generally you'd rather just defend Morganite bases with armored probe teams or armored supply crawlers which do not cost you any support.

2. Police as that also reduces drones, although as Morgan at best you will have 0 police when going demo, and have low support. Practically as long as pacifism is not an issue in the bases scheduled to boom it is better to go market and use the extra energy (since market effectively doubles it) for the psych budget. If you snatch the ascetic virtues it also makes it easier for GA pop booming if you go simple economy-wealth as you will have +1 police.
On the POLICE front there is the Brood Pits facility in SMAX, which raises POLICE score by 2 for the base in question (useful, especially if you have Ascetic Virtues).

3. anything giving free talents since those reduce the pool of workers/drones that psych has to deal with and get you closer to the 50% of the base's population. In vanilla this practically means only the human genome project, as the paradise garden is very late game. In the modded version we play in PBEM I think the starting future society value gives an extra talent making GA easier overall.
Clinical Immortality gives +2 Talents in every base too.

4. specialists granting psych, this works better once empaths are available, but doctors are good enough if the alternative is 10% more into the psych slider just to boom one more base.
Specialists are great as long as you can afford the nutrients and have at least +50% Psych in base. Freeing up psych slider is pretty valuable and there are times when your base just doesn't have the extra energy tiles (granted, as Morgan, energy tiles should not be a problem).

5. making lots of energy and pushing the psych slider up, facilities with psych multipliers are your friend. Hologram theatres are the cheapest to build, research hospitals also increase labs and squash one more drone to boot. Tree farms don't squash drones but they also give econ, food and raise the limit of minerals before eco damage starts fucking up tiles.
Once you have Hybrid Farms it's pretty easy to golden age boom a base. Tree Farm + Hybrid Farm give the base +100% Psych, and your forests give 3 nutrients and 2 energy now, giving you strong returns on econ slider and surplus nutrients that let you throw in a doctor or better yet an empath.

And the last but most popamole option:

6. Playing on a lower difficulty level than transcend since then you have less drones

:troll:
You missed four more options:

7. Specialist bases with guaranteed talents. This isn't using doctors for psych bonuses. This is leaving only the guaranteed talents from Peacekeeper faction, Human Genome Project secret project, Clinical Immortality secret project, or Paradise Garden and making all the rest of the citizens into specialists so that there cannot be any drones, only talents and specialists. Meaning you set the specialists to Technician/Librarian/Engineer/Thinker/etc for the econ or labs. You get a guaranteed golden age this way and never need any drone suppression whatsoever. It's a cheesy stunt that's usually done with Human Genome Project (or Peacekeeper faction) and lots of supply crawlers. Without supply crawlers, at 80+ population as Peacekeepers, assuming no SPs or Paradise Gardens, you will automatically end up here since every possible tile is being worked by a talent and the rest are therefore by necessity specialists, but you can end up here much sooner, especially with Paradise Garden facilities, Human Genome Project, and Clinical Immortality, or if your base just has less than 20 available tiles. Lal with Paradise Garden only needs 24 population in a base to work 8 tiles.

8. Building Cloning Vats. Build once, enjoy pop booms forever as special function of Secret Project. This thing removes all difficulties with pop booming and also lets you run Power and Thought Control values without any penalty. It effectively removes the penalty from running Green too. It's great.

9. Teching your way to the Eudaimonia SE setting, which gives +2 GROWTH, +2 ECON, +2 INDUSTRY (and is completely fucking nuts), letting you use Democracy+Eudaimonia+Creches for all your pop boom needs. But Eudaimonia is a very late tech and if you leave pop booming for that late you are probably losing. It does, however, enable you to run pop booms at later stages where psych caps permanently cripple your ability to do golden ages unless you do specialist bases with guaranteed talents.

10. Technically not a pop boom, and if you manage to do this and actually spent your turns on this, something is probably wrong with you and the game, but it's constantly developing enough Sky Hydroponics Labs that you always grow pop in 1 turn. If you go down this road it's much easier to sustain a specialist base with a Paradise Garden and Sky Hydroponics Labs where you work as many tiles as you have guaranteed talents and make all the rest into specialists for permanent golden ages since you can ignore all drone problems this way. You only really need enough talents to work all your boreholes really (so 6 max without borehole cluster, but in ICS style 2-3 talents suffice, making Paradise Gardens and/or Clinical Immortality sufficient). You should really have Eudaimonia at this point though.
 
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RK47

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You can move psych slider to 100% for one turn for the golden ages to kick in then move it down as the golden ages sustain themselves with superior energy tile yields.

Wah, this is huge.
Thanks man.
 

Absinthe

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Honestly you shouldn't be too afraid of setting sliders to 100% psych for GA booms. It may not be ideal, but the added population pays off.
 

RK47

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OK, so even turn 1 gave me a lot to think about when thinking in the PBEM perspective.

yZPcxdA.png


This start. I really want to put the colonies closer to the river but realized the moment someone gets a probe on the coast it's gonna fuck me over.
Do you guys spend 3 turns to move the colony pods 2 tiles away from the coast just to keep it safe from future probe action?

Or maybe I'm just too paranoid since I can probably get a defensive probe team faster than usual with the changed tech tree? Or just plant forests on the coatal tiles to make landing a 2 point cost?
 

Absinthe

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At 1 tile from coast people will just transport chain a group of speeder probes and probe your base your base senseless. If you want to avoid probing, you need to build lots of defensive probes and some defensive military would go well too. If you want to turtle hard, you can definitely avoid settling anything near a coastal tile to reduce risk of invasion. If you are playing Hive you get free Perimeter Defenses against invasion though.

Defensive probes are pretty mandatory in PBEM tbh and usually you just settle and fill in defensive probes. Generally you want a minimum of 2 defensive probes in bases that are a probe risk.
 

catfood

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I haven't played this in years. Are there any cool mods out there? There was this one that added some AI tweaks making some factions, such as Morgan, be able to stand on their own. Also is there any way to fix the aspect ratio?
 

passerby

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Thinker ai mod (also now includes SMAC in SMAX (terranx.exe) mod and Scient's patches):
https://github.com/induktio/thinker
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qsps5bhz...6Ity5W3o1a?dl=0&lst=&preview=Thinker_v2.0.zip
Forum thread: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21013.0

For aspect ratio, either edit Alpha Centauri.ini and add DirectDraw=0 under [Alpha Centauri] and it'll run at your desktop resolution.
Or use PRACX :
https://github.com/DrazharLn/pracx
https://github.com/DrazharLn/pracx/releases

After you get bored with vanilla there is Will To Power mod (based on thinker mod), it's a great effort that I really appreciate:
https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer
https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/tree/master/releases

It changes a lot, but at this point it grew on me, so I edit out very few of its changes.
If you prefer more vanilla experience, you can eventually edit back most of tech tree and stats changes in alphax.txt and thinker.ini to get it close to vanilla and enjoy it mostly for some essential imo rules changes like:
- Decreased weapon/defense ratio of units ( technically an alphax.txt change, binary only adds proper graphic representation on units ), but it's essential imo, vanilla favors attacker way too much.
- Adjustable perimeter defence and tachyon field bonuses ( related to increasing armor values above - I for example use TF bonus reduced to 150% from 200%, while intrinsic base defence in alphax.txt increased to 50% ).
- No collateral stack damage.
- No single turn healing with Command Center ( healing rates adjustable in the ini file ).
- Reactor level doesn't increase unit HPs, which essentially was doubling strenght with each level on top of slicing the cost in half, making it absurdly overpowered in vanilla.
- Improved artillery damage calculation ( weak artillery has small chance to do a damage, in vanilla it's useless ).
- Coastal bases expand borders into the sea like sea bases.
- Condenser only adds raininess in nearby tiles, no extra food.
- There is more optional stuff that I have mixed feelings about, like for example making GROWTH required for popboom adjustable, increased randomness of combat results, homeland combat bonus, etc...

The author also started do develop some further AI improvements on top of thinker mod.
He is also very active and shoots releases at rapid fire, so they sometimes ( rarely ) end up buggy, or unbalanced, you can give him feedback in this thread: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21359.0
 
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scient

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Created a new release on GitHub with 55 net new functions redirected. That brings total count to 420. Fixed a couple of bugs in my code base along with rolling in another from unofficial patch. Lots of improved analysis and existing code clean up on top of new functions.

https://github.com/b-casey/OpenSMACX/releases/tag/0.2.3

Not all heroes wear capes!

Hell yeah, OpenSMACX!

Gonna download and test this baby later on.

How playable is it right now?

:D

Very playable! Code goes through rigorous regression tests and manual assembly review. Two out of the four bugs fixed in this release were one off issues where I strayed from straight 1-1 decompilation. Another was just minor quirk with having to support old and new Windows API calls for certain things like PRNG. Last one was oversight in some of oldest code base prior to regression tests I've added into workflow. Even with all testing I put things through, I may have overlooked something. But I'd say it's just as stable if not more so than the original since I've been fixing issues in code (either new problems I find/reported or rolling in fixes from my unofficial patch). If you do find an issue that's specific to OpenSMACX, I give those top priority. I have generally been able to fix reported problems in a couple days tops (so far only had one report, other three I came across myself doing code review).

One nice thing is with python script and import adder exe (under Tools in repo), you should be able to apply this to any existing binary. It should work 100% with my unofficial patches. There shouldn't be any problems with Thinker or PRACX last time I tested them. Let me know if you have any questions or run into any issues. The more folks testing/using it the better chance of catching problems.
 

scient

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I created an autonomous mode patched binary that uses OpenSMACX along with expanded auto saves (turn one plus up to 50 ten year saves) and built in debug logging enabled. It's kind of cool watching AI fight each other along with doing some really dumb moves.
 

Absinthe

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Against AI or player? AFAIK the AI is not smart enough to make speeder probes and send 3 move probes against your base, much less make sea probes.
Against players, of course. He was talking about the PBEM perspective. SMAC is a pretty different game when you have to deal with all the crazy stunts that players can do and every turn matters.
 

Induktio

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Against AI or player? AFAIK the AI is not smart enough to make speeder probes and send 3 move probes against your base, much less make sea probes.

By default probes have the speeder chassis so not sure what do you mean there. But improved probe teams was actually one of the first additions in Thinker mod. The AI doesn't specifically use any pre-defined prototype, instead it tries to pick better special abilities, chassis and armor to combine in a new prototype. Sea probes are built too.

I haven't tested yet Scient's new release with Thinker, but on the last time it worked quite well without crashes. I run most of the testing on vanilla GOG binary only. The project has been on a hiatus for a while, but maybe I'll get back on it at some time...
 

RK47

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RNG tech research option is fucking retarded.
Could really screw you over hard when playing slow tech research.
 

Absinthe

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It isn't RNG. It's actually fully predictable. Here's a spreadsheet for the standard techtree.

The most basic rule is that if you want a tech that you fulfill the requirements for, but it doesn't appear on your selection screen, just get 1 more tech and it will 100% appear (2 techs works too, but get 3 and it's gone again).
 
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Unwanted

Kalin

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That's mighty useful!

As for mods Thinker is pretty swell and comes with a lovely SMAC in SMAX "mod within the mod". I particularly like the landing parameters. Playing on Huge Map of Planet with pods enabled, 2 nutrients toggled and "faction_placement=1" gives quite excellent landing distribution. All factions are - for the most part - properly distributed across Planet with one faction landing on Mount Planet being a regular occurrence (justice for the Longevity Vaccine video).
 

Absinthe

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To be honest in multiplayer we tend to tech trade a lot, and I was pretty much teching blindly for most of last game and doing fine. It wasn't until late in the game that I bothered to learn the formula for predicting techs. Owing to the furious tech trade if you tech like shit you will probably profit from being able to exchange more techs that no one else has. The real problem is if your tech speed is shit. And if you don't have probe teams, in which case no one will need to trade techs with you when they can just help themselves or trade with others that stole it from you.

As for teching options, the formula was discovered in this thread, but you'll need to manually apply it for modded techtrees. Overall formula for if a tech will appear is:

(Tech # + Total # of Techs You Have + Player Slot # - Starting Techs (0 if you ever tech traded or scenario starts with bonus techs)) modulo 3 ≠ 0

Tech # is the number of rows from the first tech under the #TECHNOLOGY heading in alpha.txt or alphax.txt, with the first row counting as row 0 (instead of row 1). Player Slot # begins at 1 iirc and is your position in the turn order. Starting techs is the number of bonus techs your faction begins with (ie. 1 for all SMAC factions except Zak, which is 2 instead, but SMAX factions have 2 starting techs). In PBEM it seems like tech trading does not toggle the switch in starting tech value. Also, the tech that would be the first (left-most) entry is always available regardless of modulo value. Techs are sorted in order of Explore (Green), Discover (White), Build (Yellow), Conquest (Red) in the order of their #TECHNOLOGY row # (lowest to highest) in alpha(x).txt. A tech's category is determined by its highest AI value: Explore (growth AI value), Discover (tech AI value), Build (wealth AI value), and Conquer (power AI value).
 
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Absinthe

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SMAC supports everything from Direct Serial and Direct Modem to TCP/IP and Play By E-Mail for multiplayer. We just do PBEM on the Codex. Kalin has the latest mod, and we seem to be slightly tweaking it every game.
 
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TROYTRON

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Thinker is a straight-up improvement over vanilla in every way, no ifs or buts.

Will to Power adds a lot of features and has potential, but it's not quite ready for prime time just yet.
 

scient

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RNG tech research option is fucking retarded.
Could really screw you over hard when playing slow tech research.

It isn't RNG. It's actually fully predictable. Here's a spreadsheet for the standard techtree.

The most basic rule is that if you want a tech that you fulfill the requirements for, but it doesn't appear on your selection screen, just get 1 more tech and it will 100% appear (2 techs works too, but get 3 and it's gone again).

I assume RNG is referring to blind research, if so there is some randomness involved. Although, it might still be somewhat deterministic for each faction based on how tech is valued with some minor variation.

This function is used for AI research or humans with blind research turned on (default game mode). If you look at this line, you'll see there is a RNG component whether a particular tech is selected to be researched. The more valuable the tech is to the faction, the more weight or likelihood it gets selected. This function handles the calculates of a tech's value for a particular faction.
 
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Vatnik
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
SMAC supports everything from Direct Serial and Direct Modem to TCP/IP and Play By E-Mail for multiplayer. We just do PBEM on the Codex. Kalin has the latest mod, and we seem to be slightly tweaking it every game.
Which mod is used for Codex PBEM? I would ask Kalin but he has been hit by DU lulz.
Just installed this game and want to learn it on the mod and then play PBEM
 
Vatnik
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Kalin sent me the mod and I just played it 6 hours straight. Not played SMAC before.
:what:
Why does the rest of the civ franchise even exist????? Goddamn consumers. Only the best civ4 mods can hold a candle to this.... and even then, not really.
 

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