4X The Unsurpassed Brian Reynolds' Alpha Centauri thread

[scient]

Pushed a new update to GitHub. Lots of clean up and 50 new functions mostly related to tech/map. Most interesting thing for players is probably how AI / blind research priorities tech:
https://github.com/b-casey/OpenSMACX/blob/master/src/technology.cpp#L302

 

[chuft]

Wow scient you're still around and working on this?

 

[scient]

Wow scient you're still around and working on this?

Hey chuft, long time! Hope you're well. Haha yep, haven't gotten rid of me yet.

Dreaming of Huge OpenSMAC modpacks and 14-faction games

Me too!

Question: Do you think the climate model could be reworked to allow for permafrost/tundra as low temperature terrain? AFAIK Chiron has a higher temperature than Earth due to its constant greenhouse effect, but it still has poles (we can even melt or freeze those), the game just doens't show them. Such an odd decision.

Yeah, I don't see why not. There is already a value that determines temperature of a tile. And there are game mechanics around global warming/cooling. You would need to add assets to the game. You could probably take some from Civ2/Civ3 and tweak them.

What's up with Blind Research? I remember discussing it early in the thread and I think the consensus was that it is a pretty interesting mechanic which represents how scientific development works more adequately, but the whole implementation was janky and flawed.

I don't remember the details exactly, so if you don't mind, I would like to see your take on it.

My understanding is that blind research for a human player is pretty similar to how AI player picks their tech. The priorities are based on value of each tech that's all outlined in tech_val() function I've completed. I can't really speak on effectiveness. This could likely be enhanced or expanded upon to give better results. There are still some additional functions on picking tech that I've yet to do.

 

[scient]

What's up with Blind Research? I remember discussing it early in the thread and I think the consensus was that it is a pretty interesting mechanic which represents how scientific development works more adequately, but the whole implementation was janky and flawed.

I don't remember the details exactly, so if you don't mind, I would like to see your take on it.

You might find this thread interesting.

https://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21389.msg125097#msg125097

 

[chuft]

I seem to recall always playing with blind research after awhile to give the AI more of a chance, so I couldn't beeline to things like AirPower.

 

[scient]

So AI research is a mix of weights and values alongside code in the Binary making the AI seek certain techs to get to certain projects or buildings?

Yep! The weights/values inside alpha/x.txt and faction files are the user moddable part. Then tech_val() has some hardcoded beeline paths to nudge AI in certain directions based on these weights and values.

For example, if a faction has a base Social Engineering probe score less than zero (University) they are likely more susceptible to probe attacks. So here you see the game nudging a faction towards the prerequisites to Hunter Seeker Secret Project. The faction would also need to have ai-power set to false (0) and/or ai-tech set to true (1). The vanilla University faction lines up with both of these values. Likely, this particular check was designed to specifically push University towards building HS to make up for their lack of SE Probe.

There is some randomness involved. There is another function that cycles through available tech, passes it to tech_val() then selects one for research based on random value within tech_val() range. So if a tech has higher value, it is more likely to fall in upper bounds and end up being selected. That tech_ai() function can be viewed here.

Also, that tech_ai() I'm pretty sure handles blind research for human players as well. There is a specific check to force growth or wealth factions played by humans to gain Formers.

 

[index.php]

 

[Induktio]

The flaws of the original blind research formula are immediately obvious when you consider that some AI factions with mismatched priorities can even fail to research formers during the first 100 turns. The AIs are basically always doing blind research while never adjusting their focus priorities. There are various ways to mod around these limitations though.

 

[RK47]

I've been digging through Morgan's gameplay of late and discovered a frustrating flaw when I play on island maps.
The lack of easy access to military units to pop pods safely in the waterways.
For land-based pods, it's just a matter of having probes to open pods and an independent Unity Rover to deal with the random worms.
But for sea-based pods, I can't deploy these without drones due to Free Market.
I would pop open pods with probe foils, only to have isles of the deep appear and start dropping worms on my shores.

How would you advise Morgan players on this problem in the early game?

 

[Nevill]

How would you advise Morgan players on this problem in the early game?

Designate a couple bases that won't be doing anything but riot. Assign all of the ships there.

I assume you won't have more than 4 ships doing scouting, which incidentally is how many can be supported by 2 dummy bases.

End turns next to the pods so that if there is an IotD inside (which costs 3 movement points to pop - a bug?) your foils would still have 1 movement point left to move away. Most of the time Isles won't pursue units that don't stand next to them. That way you won't be losing your foils.

Don't attack IotDs. It's generally hopeless under FM, and damaging your foils slows down exploration and pod popping.

Land-based worms are easier to handle, just keep a couple of Empath Rovers in good condition, and make sure to attack first.

 

[RK47]

Transcend game - started as Believers.
Snagged the Weather Paradigm and started a few boreholes on mineral tiles. Very nice.
The peace period ended when Zakharov made contact and DECLARED VENDETTA immediately.
Good thing I had mobility and probes ready.
Probes stole tech and unleashed hell on their units. Bribed a few troops to turn the tide and switched to Fundamentalism + Planned Economy. Research dropped but linking 3 artifacts nets me Supply Crawler tech.
Got Command Nexus going and crushed the University with mass probes and cheap monolith boosted recon rovers.
After taking 3 colonies, University declared submission pact, took all his tech - including the Super Conductor (Gatling 5)
Good shit.

Now I'm about to complete the Planetary Transit System to go on Democracy / Planned / Wealth spam.
Should I stop research and just rely on University? University has Virtual World that made them immune to drone strikes while my fleet of formers is busy getting soil enrichers ready for the mass pod spam game. Thinking of donating colonies to Uni as research generators.

Update: nvm, sunspot means free nerve stapling for everyone.
Literally squatted the Uranium Flats and mind-controlled a Uni base that is standing next to a mineral-rich tile.

 

[RK47]

Oh well... so much for submission pact. The moment sunspot ends Zhakarov got butthurt over me nerve stapling his former colonies.
His rover blew up two of my formers but managed to stay within my colony... how does that work?

 

[Nevill]

His rover blew up two of my formers but managed to stay within my colony... how does that work?

Normally when a Pact is ended, the units within your former Pactmate's borders end up deported to your nearest base as part of the procedure. Somehow this chain of events managed to bypass the regular flow. Perhaps you were at Vendetta even during sunspot? Did you get the message that the Pact has ended?

This kind of thing also happens when you buy a base that hosted units from your enemy's Pact Brother. They get to keep their allegeance, meaning they get to occupy the tile even though they are hostile. Even worse is your enemy's Pact Brother is also yours, then you can't attack the enemy base at all as it is defended by an allied unit.

 

[passerby]

Oh well... so much for submission pact. The moment sunspot ends Zhakarov got butthurt over me nerve stapling his former colonies.
His rover blew up two of my formers but managed to stay within my colony... how does that work?

They may break the pact if you commit a hostile probe action, or an atrocity against them, demand money, or bases with threat of breaking the pact, or they grow more powerful than you. So nerve stapling, or rising their former base counts as atrocity.
I think the base loose the status of a former base of a faction ( graphic on the map changes ) after 50 turns, or after being taken over again by another faction before 50 turns passes.

When thay stay your puppets, they'll always support you on the planetary council, always join your wars and keep giving away all their tech for free.
From my experience immidiately after submission you can demand one of their bases with a threat, if you try it again they'll break the pact.

 

[RK47]

Oh well I thought that sunspot moment was a mini golden age for me with no riots and 8+ bases created with 3 pop and no hunger with democracy /freemarket/wealth...

Well time to spin the gatling guns again...

 

[RK47]

Gave SMAX a more sincere attempt and was doing fine .. except the AI (I've yet to meet) are dropping like flies. First the Planet Cult followed by the Data Angels. Aliens? Who knows, I'm busy expanding my Morgan franchise in my decent chunk of island paradise, taking on incoming alien lifeforms well - until the fucking artillery worm showed up and refused to disembark from the isle of deep.

Instead, it kept bombarding my improvements, destroying around 5-10 turns of former production.
I haven't even researched artillery or foil tech...

 

[Hellraiser]

This is why when merc proposed to use his sanitized modded version of SMAX for PBEM, I asked him to remove spore launchers and fungal towers from the premises first. Hate that crap, but especially the spore launchers.

Since you are playing morgan I bet your morale and planet rating sucks, but I think you could just building a cheap lazor foil, maybe even with empath song if the penalties are that huge or the isle is beefy. Can make decent monies off hunting them isles, japanese whaler style.

Kalin, BTW if Merc could remove spore launchers and fungal towers as units, can't we remove artefacts the same way so we're not forced to play scenarios?

 

[Nevill]

Artillery can not destroy improvements on tiles that are occupied by your units. Just put crawlers/scouts on top of the improvements in range of a spore launcher.

Formers can work as well but be warned the bombardment sets back the terraforming timer, so they won't be doing any work.

 

[chuft]

I like having armies of spore launchers slide around in the fungus, looking for trouble.

 

[RK47]

OK, playing a Transcend Morgan game, went fast impact rovers and bullied a neighboring Lal into a submissive pact. I took the Human Genome Project, Command Nexus, and Planetary Transit SP. Things look great until the Spartans landed and started buggering my pact ally. I struck back, of course, drove them back to their own neighboring lands. But that's when Free Market starts having issues with the Pacifism bullshit and the extra drones from extra bases is causing loss of productivity.

Planetary Governor Election happened and Miriam and Zakharov (who took Virtual World SP, fuuuuck) are leading hard. That means Miriam must be in a Monsoon Jungle paradise. Gaians are wiped out. Probably by the Believers.

Now I don't think I'm that far behind but my war against Sparta isn't going to end that quickly. I had to switch to Fundamentalism, maintained Free Market, and turned off Wealth to have a killing chance against their plasma armor.
Mass probe actions net me the Gatling Laser tech (5), but I'm having great difficulty in holding on to the seized colony that is literally 3 tiles away from the Spartan HQ loaded up with 6-8 units.

So I'm gauging my options now:
- I should try for a blood truce. Pull back and find a good base to borehole crawler, soil enricher crawler and assign all my units there. And give them perma-holiday so I don't have to deal with pacifism. Also, turn Wealth back on.
- I should blow up the Spartan base I've captured? Is the sanction worth it? Or do I hand it over to one of the leading factions to cause friction with the Spartans...and perhaps probe it for easy infiltration? University is a prime candidate here. I would love to get my hands on some of their techs.

- I'm 20 turns away from Doctrine: Power and Punishment Sphere. That is gonna be the turning point I guess. The two bases with mineral boreholes are prime candidates for the Punishment Sphere. Hopefully, with Fundamentalism and Power doctrine, I can start rolling over Spartans.

Well shit, new turn, new opportunities.
Zakharov contacts me with an irresistible offer: Pact up vs Hive and I get Cyberethics (Knowledge SE)
Well fuck yeah. That's gonna help with the colonies income from +2 Research, +1 Efficiency, -2 Probe
Gonna accept that offer and then hand over control of the Spartan former colonies to Zakharov for easy infiltration and Spartan friction.

 

[RK47]

Well shit, I went full retard and set sliders to 80-20-0 after unlocking the Chaos Gun (8). It wasn't needed. I broke through Sparta Command core colonies and left them with just a few sea colonies.
There is just one problem: I have no naval force to finish them off and a lot of Gatling Rovers with nothing to do. But that's ok, I have the entire island to myself and punishment spheres are deployed to keep the size-6 Sparta Command under control. I might scrap the non-Elite Gatling rovers eventually to get Chaos Cruisers online. Believers took Maritime SP - this is gonna be a pain in the ass.

Also, I forgot to keep tabs on my University ally and found him being systematically destroyed by Hive & Believers. I don't think he'll make it. I wanted to gift Zakharov a lifeline colony but sunspot happened. Good luck, Zakharov. It's probably going to be Morgan's Continent vs Hive-Believer-Spartan Remnants.

Time to get a navy going on and revert to Democracy - Freemarket - Wealth.

 

[RK47]

New game - The Degenerate Believers seems p. strong.

Entered a pact with University and Morganites for nice research and income.
Vendetta vs Hive, Spartans (they're both fighting each other as well. Allowing me to profit.)
I've shut down most research to bare minimum because the best techs are stolen.

The recent acquisition of airpower and military tech is sold to allies for credits or tech.
Now in the process of deploying missile jets and artillery to wipe out the Hive.
Hopefully, we can get a truce from the Spartans.

Bonus footage of Hive not having any credits for probe team to drain...

Adopting Values: Power enables us to enter a Pact with the Spartans.
But we are wary of Morgan and Lal.

The Hive is sufficiently knocked down a peg or two after we've taken control of their Command Nexus.
The Hive rebellious populace is put down with a Punishment Sphere but the war continues until the Chairman is utterly destroyed. Zakharov already voiced his displeasure over our ambitions for power.

The Gaians are too weak to be of any influence and the Believers take center stage in political power. We'll continue this course. Spartans are completely reliant on us to fend off the Hive military forces and have donated their hardware to our cause.

Glory to God.

 

[Silva]

I always thought the "steal tech then trade it immediately" as broken. A more rational approach would be either: a) Civ 4-like, where you can only trade what you researched yourself or b) take some time (5 years? 10 years?) before selling it. This should have been an option in the starting menu, just like "stealing tech by conquer" is.

Something I realized just now by looking at your screens: SMAC has a tint of that dirty grain aesthetics, which my brain associates with late 80s/early 90s and all the cool shit that were in vogue then (cyberpunk, Terminator movies, etc). Oh man, I would kill for a remake, or even a remaster of it.

 

[Space Satan]

I still amazes me that SMAC Governor system is still the best automation mechanics than all civilization and other franchize had to offer. I mean it was a simple if-then-else, yet noone could copy it.

 

[RK47]

Sunspots descended upon Chiron as the battle on its surface hits a fever pitch.

The combined forces of Spartan and Believers have successfully driven back the Hive into their last holdings.
The Monsoon Jungle, once a great source of power and wealth to the Chairman is seized completely by the Believers' forces.

The numerous populace were resistant to control at first but succumbed upon witnessing the erection of Punishment Spheres.

In total, more than 200,000 Hive colonists were subjugated.
It's only a matter of time before the last of the Chairman's Dystopian Experiment comes to an end.
The Hive's industrial strength was matched with Believers' zeal and cunning. Sabotage was key in disabling defensive perimeters and stolen war technology was adopted at a rapid pace.
Boreholes were drilled to provide the Believers with much-needed industry. That was until the treacherous Peacekeepers conducted a sneak attack on the defenseless Formers and put an end to the project.

Retaliation was swift. Sea colonies were bombed from the skies and foils rapidly took over the defenseless installations. Once every facility was scrapped for parts, control was handed over to the Morgans.
This provides a two-fold benefit: The Believers infrastructure is straining under the immense stretch of holdings, better to offload it to the Morganites and gain a steady source of commerce in return. The cowardly UN, of course, could only seethe in anger as a treaty protects the Morganites from any retaliation.

Relations with University also went sour as Believers agents were caught stealing more technology. Zakharov vows the completion of the Hunter Seeker Algorithm will put an end to future leaks, but the theft of Fusion Power meant the Believers can now deploy more powerful war machines in the field.