Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Gord]

Yes to everything.

I do know some Ultima fans who think Larian are overselling themselves with D:OS and that it currently isn't really like Ultima VII at all, though.

It both is and isn't, I think. I got an Ultima vibe from it in how some quests can be approached, i.e. by exploring and observing the game world and than doing something that looks as if it might work. Also it's very probable that you can bake bread in the end.
On the other hand, the atmosphere is Larian, not Ultima, the combat is very different (and better), at least so far it's not a big open world (dunno how close it will come to Ultima in that regard), they follow a totally different approach in itemization...
Depending on which aspects you are looking for, you might find it or not. But enough of D:OS in this thread.

Wasteland 2 is NOT a spiritual successor to either Fallout 1 or Fallout 2. It's a sequel to Wasteland 1. Yeah it has strong inspirations and stuff from the fallout universe and what not, but a successor, no.

Well, I said "spiritual successor", and I think that is somewhat justified. Even though it's kinda biting its own tail here, since, as you say, Fallout was a "spiritual successor" to Wasteland. And certainly many people will see it that way, anyway.

 

[Daedalos]

Yes to everything.

I do know some Ultima fans who think Larian are overselling themselves with D:OS and that it currently isn't really like Ultima VII at all, though.

It both is and isn't, I think. I got an Ultima vibe from it in how some quests can be approached, i.e. by exploring and observing the game world and than doing something that looks as if it might work. Also it's very probable that you can bake bread in the end.
On the other hand, the atmosphere is Larian, not Ultima, the combat is very different (and better), at least so far it's not a big open world (dunno how close it will come to Ultima in that regard), they follow a totally different approach in itemization...
Depending on which aspects you are looking for, you might find it or not. But enough of D:OS in this thread.

Wasteland 2 is NOT a spiritual successor to either Fallout 1 or Fallout 2. It's a sequel to Wasteland 1. Yeah it has strong inspirations and stuff from the fallout universe and what not, but a successor, no.

Well, I said "spiritual successor", and I think that is somewhat justified. Even though it's kinda biting its own tail here, since, as you say, Fallout was a "spiritual successor" to Wasteland. And certainly many people will see it that way, anyway.

I am quoting Brother None from InXile forums on Wasteland 2 NOT being a spiritual successor in any way to fallout, in fact it's the other way around..

"(...) No one is denying it looks a lot like Fallout. But it was not promised to be a Fallout sequel, spiritual or otherwise, it was not designed to be a spiritual successor to Fallout. It looks like Fallout because they're both turn-based top-down games in post-apocalyptic settings. But calling it a spiritual successor is implying a promise that does not exist, the promise that Wasteland 2 will be the true follow-up to Fallout, Fallout 2.5 if you will. inXile never promised that. That's why saying "but Fallout used full line dialog!" is a pointless remark. If you want to argue in favor of such dialog, do so, but do so on its own merits. This is not a successor to Fallout, so it is not directly relevant what Fallout did.

It is a Wasteland sequel, and while it learns from Fallout as it learned from several RPGs and strategic turn-based titles that have come out since, that is the core of what it is. Fallout makes a convenient comparison because it is in the same genre, but it does not determine what the sequel does. Of course it's not exactly like Wasteland, sequels do evolve, but it is very much so a Wasteland sequel, not a Fallout sequel.

You want to be happy about how it's turning out? Fine. Does anyone deny there are similarities to Fallout? Not at all. But it is not a Fallout sequel, and we should not foist expectations upon it based on what Fallout did. That is the very simple core notion you appear to be missing."

 

[Daedalos]

Also personally, I think Josh Sawyer comes off 90 million times more arrogant and self-indulgent than Fargo ever did.. but meh.

 

[Rake]

Also personally, I think Josh Sawyer comes off 90 million times more arrogant and self-indulgent than Fargo ever did.. but meh.

No.
Sawyer does not try to sell his product when he talks. He states how things will work, and then explains his design decisions. He doesn't try to sweeten the pill. him being arrogant is irrelevant.
OTOH Fargo is actively hyping his product as the best thing ever and is trying to sell it to unsuspecting customers. It's his job, after all he is a publiser/PR and not a dev, but that guarantees more scepticism towards his words than Saywer's.
And if you cannot tell the difference, well... it's no wonder you are shallowing his hype, and your tag was very kind to you.

 

[felipepepe]

He's said that it's bigger than any game he's ever produced. I don't recall him ever saying it will be more replayable than some other game, just that it's very replayable.

Please find sources to all your claims. Where and when did fargo state that WL2 will be the most replayable and surpass Fallout 2?

Strategy Informer:Games like Fallout 2 and Planescape: Torment were legendary for their depth and replayability. How will WL2 match up to that?

Brian Fargo: Wasteland 2 will be the most replayable role-playing game I’ve ever made in my life. I’ve never put this much subtlety and detail into a role-playing game. There’s lots of content many people won’t ever see and we’re ok with that. The game is so intricate that I think there’s no way you could see everything in the game no matter how many times you played it.

Source.

A damn big boast to make, and one that the currently released beta has no chance of ever getting near.

See, this is where you're being subjective. Pillars of Eternity is promising A LOT and has caused, is causing, and will cause MASSIVE butthurt. Sawyer is on record saying that he's going to design a system that blows AD&D out of the water and that BG2 sucks, FFS.

Why do you not notice this about PoE but do notice about Wasteland 2? Check your biases.

Sawyer has a arrogant tone, but his allegations are mostly solid. I disagree with him on mage fights in BG2, but most of his his proposals are indeed a well thought "fix" for infinity engine games. His "hype" is "I'll do X like this, to solve the Y issue", pure designer talk, while Fargo just go on empty promises of reactivity/replayability/gamers feedback/buy this game now, like a salesman.

Besides, I can't judge PoE yet, for nothing was released. Is PoE's system better than AD&D? No way of knowing atm. Is W2 more replayable than Fallout 2? No fucking way.

Larian have promised quite a lot with D:OS, as well (spiritual successor to/highly inspired by Ultima 7, high level of interactivity in the world, alternative quest solutions, emergent gameplay, etc.). Might be that they have done so in a less sensationalistic manner, or their ongoing record of bro-ness is helping. Or simply because it gets far less attention on the Codex.

Yes, they have a more humble tone, and more importantly, their beta shows that they are really on the right path. All they promised is in, just unpolished and unfinished.

 

[Gord]

You want to be happy about how it's turning out? Fine. Does anyone deny there are similarities to Fallout? Not at all. But it is not a Fallout sequel, and we should not foist expectations upon it based on what Fallout did. That is the very simple core notion you appear to be missing."

Ok, I'll not call it a spiritual successor anymore, but I think it's a broad enough term that, given the circumstances, it is perceived as such.
Btw., I don't think that "spiritual successor" implies that it has to stay extremely close to it's spiritual predecessor in every way. There's still huge amounts of freedom in how you can apporach it.
What I was trying to say is that people will inevitably compare W2 with both W1 AND Fallout, which InXile surely was aware of (and of the futility of all attempts at avoiding that) and that this will lead to some very high expectations that are hard to meet.
I haven't played the beta, nor have I even backed Wasteland 2, and I'm just sitting back and waiting for the final product before making a verdict about the quality of the game.

Yes, they have a more humble tone, and more importantly, their beta shows that they are really on the right path. All they promised is in, just unpolished and unfinished.

I agree that the beta (which is still called alpha, by the way) looks quite good already, but they are still far from including everything they have promised.

 

[felipepepe]

Yes, they have a more humble tone, and more importantly, their beta shows that they are really on the right path. All they promised is in, just unpolished and unfinished.

I agree that the beta (which is still called alpha, by the way) looks quite good already, but they are still far from including everything they have promised.

True, that's why they called it a alpha. The big difference I see is that they have the core design right; it feels like the game that was promised, just missing some features.

W2 core design doesn't match its promises. You cannot make a extremely replayable game that has mandatory boring dungeons. You don't patch a linear game into a open-world RPG. You don't simply add complexity to combat as an afterthought. It seems like they did a cookie-cutter mediocre RPG game first, and now they are trying to transform him into all that was promised, instead of designing it from the ground to be great.

 

[Infinitron]

Sawyer has a arrogant tone, but his allegations are mostly solid.

Again, this is subjective. There are people who think what Sawyer is doing is the worst thing in the world, and we have an 1000 page thread to prove it. Just like there are a bunch of angry MM6 fans who thought MMX was a terrible travesty and filled its Steam page with angry reviews, hurting its sales, and yet to us they seem ridiculous.

The past year has taught me that people can get very weird where nostalgia is involved. Something rubs them the wrong way, and suddenly the game isn't just imperfect and unfinished, it's "just downright NOT fun" and everything is horrible. And the entire world needs to know how angry they are!

Fargo just go on empty promises of reactivity/replayability/gamers feedback/buy this game now, like a salesman.

Well, he's not a designer. I too wish that Wasteland 2's actual designers got more voice time. This is inXile's true failing.

Besides, I can't judge PoE yet, for nothing was released. Is PoE's system better than AD&D? No way of knowing atm.

Fair enough. We'll see what happens when it is. It can't be more than a few months off...

You cannot make a extremely replayable game that has mandatory boring dungeons. You don't patch a linear game into a open-world RPG. You don't simply add complexity to combat as an afterthought.

How do you know? inXile says you're wrong.

 

[felipepepe]

Again, this is subjective. There are people who think what Sawyer is doing is the worst thing in the world, and we have an 1000 page thread to prove it.

Not really that subjective... Fargo promising to hang the hat on reactivity (and how well he does that) is subjective, but Sawyer saying he will not allow 100% damage immunity is a design choice that wither you agree or you don't. You can say it's a dumb decision, but you can't say that he is lying or making empty promises...

Fargo just go on empty promises of reactivity/replayability/gamers feedback/buy this game now, like a salesman.

Well, he's not a designer. I too wish that Wasteland 2's actual designers got more voice time. This is inXile's true failing.

Yeah, it feels like there is no one leading the game's design... Fargo just read that a lot of people wanted aimed shots, and shouted in the office that they must be in the next patch. I would really like to hear the designers talking about why they didn't implemented it in the first time, why they are doing it now, how they will do, etc...

You cannot make a extremely replayable game that has mandatory boring dungeons. You don't patch a linear game into a open-world RPG. You don't simply add complexity to combat as an afterthought.

How do you know? inXile says you're wrong.

And have they done anything yet to prove me wrong?

 

[Infinitron]

You can say it's a dumb decision, but you can't say that he is lying or making empty promises...

You can, if you believe that such things are a core element of Infinity Engine-style game design. That's the game's promise.

And significant numbers of people do believe this. Enough that Sawyer regularly has to go on the Obsidian forums and have arguments with people to cool them down, instead of working on his game.

I wish the Wasteland 2 devs did this too. It's something I've bugged Brother None about often.

Yeah, it feels like there is no one leading the game's design... Fargo just read that a lot of people wanted aimed shots, and shouted in the office that they must be in the next patch. I would really like to hear the designers talking about why they didn't implemented it in the first time, why they are doing it now, how they will do, etc...

Well, it's Brother None, Monty Markland and now sea who are reading things and passing on their recommendations to Fargo and the rest. But again, I agree with you here.

And have they done anything yet to prove me wrong?

We'll see when the update comes out, won't we.

 

[Gord]

Yeah, it feels like there is no one leading the game's design... Fargo just read that a lot of people wanted aimed shots, and shouted in the office that they must be in the next patch. I would really like to hear the designers talking about why they didn't implemented it in the first time, why they are doing it now, how they will do, etc...

If they concluded so far during the beta phase (which is about testing the game and getting feedback after all) that aimed shots might be a good addition, what's wrong with adding them? Because a "Beta" has to be feature complete and you therefore can't add any new features, even if they would improve the game?

You cannot make a extremely replayable game that has mandatory boring dungeons. You don't patch a linear game into a open-world RPG. You don't simply add complexity to combat as an afterthought.

How do you know? inXile says you're wrong.

And have they done anything yet to prove me wrong?

A lot of open-world games with replayability have mandatory dungeons, so I don't se a problem with that per se.
That doesn't mean that it's ok if they are boring, or placed poorly (as in right at the start), but it doesn't necessarily make the game totally linear, imho.

Regarding the reactivity/C&C, Brother None had posted a few quite nice examples in this thread that did show a lot of reactivity, imho.
I'm a bit unsure what to think about W2 there, since I have somewhat conflicting informations on it. Given that the beta has the early parts of the game, I anyway wouldn't expect tons of extremely huge reactivity already, and judging from the info by BN, much of it is quite subtle, too.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Also personally, I think Josh Sawyer comes off 90 million times more arrogant and self-indulgent than Fargo ever did.. but meh.

No.
Sawyer does not try to sell his product when he talks. He states how things will work, and then explains his design decisions. He doesn't try to sweeten the pill. him being arrogant is irrelevant.
OTOH Fargo is actively hyping his product as the best thing ever and is trying to sell it to unsuspecting customers. It's his job, after all he is a publiser/PR and not a dev, but that guarantees more scepticism towards his words than Saywer's.
And if you cannot tell the difference, well... it's no wonder you are shallowing his hype, and your tag was very kind to you.

This. Despite my dislike for Josh's design decision. I respect his straight forwardness with his dumb decisions. And more often than not, he takes an effort to explain his PoV. To me he comes off as a bit aspie, hardworking, arrogant and misguided... but honest.
Whereas, after the WL2 Beta, Fargo just comes off as a sleazy salesman.

 

[Daedalos]

People still thinking that the WL2 beta can't improve MASSIVELY in regards to C&C and reactivity, because they feel the current (and very outdated) beta client is representative of anything final..and WON'T change..

That puzzles me greatly... because InXile have said numerous times now, that this simply is not true. But still, people don't believe them. We'll have to wait for the next big beta patches to silence the critics then, perhaps.


I fail to understand how people think the amount of C&C and reacitvity in a starter area, early beta client of WL2, will be representative of the final 2.5/3 of the game that we have seen NOTHING or heard something of yet.

It's like... well the outdated beta client was bad.. now you had your shot, I don't like it.. therefore I deduct that no matter what happens for whatever reason between now and release time, the game will be bad!!


Excellent reasoning.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Daedalos, could you please take Fargo's dick out of your mouth for a second, I can't understand a word.
Oh, wait a minute, I could finally make out something.

That puzzles me greatly... because InXile have said numerous times now, that this simply is not true.

Words are cheap.

But I didn't play the alpha excessively anyway, still waiting for the final product because unlike D:OS testing this alpha doesn't seem fun for most of you.

 

[Daedalos]

Daedalos, could you please take Fargo's dick out of your mouth for a second, I can't understand a word.
Oh, wait a minute, I could finally make something out.

That puzzles me greatly... because InXile have said numerous times now, that this simply is not true.

Words are cheap.

Deal. If you, and some other retards, stop spouting retarded shitposts around, about how WL2 is doomed and InXile is the nemesis of cRPG's. It gets boring and stale. Beating that deadhorse. If you don't like the way the game is headed or disagree with the way they handle it.. then stay the fuck out. Or start making sense with some of the posts, because they reek of ignorance and blind hatred.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Daedalos, could you please take Fargo's dick out of your mouth for a second, I can't understand a word.
Oh, wait a minute, I could finally make something out.

That puzzles me greatly... because InXile have said numerous times now, that this simply is not true.

Words are cheap.

Beating that deadhorse.

So you admit it's a stillbirth?

If you don't like the way the game is headed or disagree with the way they handle it.. then stay the fuck out. Or start making sense with some of the posts, because they reek of ignorance and blind hatred.

I wasn't really finished with my last post so you got me all wrong. I played the alpha for about half an hour before deciding that it isn't enough fun to volunteer as playtester.
So I backed the game and therefore despite the direction this thread is taking I still hope for the best. But I have a strong suspicion that Fargo might be a better salesman than game designer or that maybe they outsourced too much (too large scope for 3 millions maybe?). It's only a suspicion atm, I wait for the final product.

 

[Dokkalfar]

Wasteland was an 80's dungeon crawler and you morons are complaining about mandatory dungeons?

 

[tuluse]

If you don't like the way the game is headed or disagree with the way they handle it.. then stay the fuck out.

 

[Dokkalfar]

Yes, they have a more humble tone, and more importantly, their beta shows that they are really on the right path. All they promised is in, just unpolished and unfinished.

I agree that the beta (which is still called alpha, by the way) looks quite good already, but they are still far from including everything they have promised.

True, that's why they called it a alpha. The big difference I see is that they have the core design right; it feels like the game that was promised, just missing some features.

W2 core design doesn't match its promises. You cannot make a extremely replayable game that has mandatory boring dungeons. You don't patch a linear game into a open-world RPG. You don't simply add complexity to combat as an afterthought. It seems like they did a cookie-cutter mediocre RPG game first, and now they are trying to transform him into all that was promised, instead of designing it from the ground to be great.[/

Have you even played Wasteland? The game was full of dungeons and unavoidable combat. Get your head out of your ass. Stop with the incessant comparisons to Fallout when this game isn't about being a lone vault dweller, it's about being a squad of rangers, post apocalyptic police for all intents and purposes. The role you play is to maintain order and kill things.

The game is open world, there's the mandatory dungeon at the start (Highpool/AC) which exists for story reasons, because you can only save one. But after that you can travel anywhere on the map, including Rail Nomads or wherever. Stop claiming the game is 'linear', that's a lie. There's also the situation with Kebekkah, Cassey and the Golden Spike, which offers multiple ways to solve.

 

[tuluse]

felipepepe will you really be disappointed unless Wasteland 2 is the most reactive RPG ever made? I can see how Fargo's hype can be annoying, but really if they make a good RPG, no one will care what sort of pie crust promises Fargo made beforehand.

The problem right now is that Wasteland 2 is not a good game. It doesn't matter what Fargo said, you and me would be disappointed right now.

He's said that it's bigger than any game he's ever produced. I don't recall him ever saying it will be more replayable than some other game, just that it's very replayable.

He said it's the most reactive game he's ever worked on.

Maybe that's because he didn't work on Fallout 1 or 2

 

[Ramireza]

Wasteland 2 dies by Fargo's mouth, he hypes it to a point that he simply can't deliver. No mater how good it will be after months of patching, it will still be less than what he sold, and thus a disappointment.

100% agree.

 

[Dokkalfar]

95% of feedback to the beta has been positive, backers are overwhelmingly happy even with the game still in beta. The words of some people on the Codex aren't going to change anything.

 

[tuluse]

95% of feedback to the beta has been positive, backers are overwhelmingly happy even with the game still in beta. The words of some people on the Codex aren't going to change anything.

Then why is InXile claiming they are going to change things a lot?

 

[Dokkalfar]

95% of feedback to the beta has been positive, backers are overwhelmingly happy even with the game still in beta. The words of some people on the Codex aren't going to change anything.

Then why is InXile claiming they are going to change things a lot?

Because they are acting on suggestions via center code?

Certainly nothing to do with some posers on some board.

 

[Brother None]

Yes, the overall response has been pretty positive, but also with a lot of suggestions and feedback on where to improve. The game just isn't good enough yet at things we want it to be good/great at, including things like combat and reactivity. Certain Codexers are perhaps laying it on a little thick, but good feedback is good feedback, no matter how it's phrased or where it comes from. I think there are plenty of instances in the beta already where you can see good writing and good C&C shine through, instances I've pointed out before, so it's not like we don't get it at all, we just have to do more of it. Codex doesn't believe we can. I'll be curious to see how you feel about the upcoming update. But that was the core of what Brian was saying (and I feel like I've said this before); we got a lot of good feedback, and have a lot of work left to do.