Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Roguey]

Don't you win either way since that means American developer stronk Euro developer weak?

I suppose, but it doesn't matter now since the latest update once again proved Roguey Right. Q3-Q4 it is, as I've been saying all along.

 

[Daedalos]

Who cares how long it takes... as long as they make it very good.. it's worth waiting for... go do other stuff meanwhile..

Like.. living your life.

 

[MicoSelva]

Is it just me, or do these screenshots look like inXile eased up on the blur filter? I will need to check the new build later today.

I can't say that I don't care about the release date at all, but even months of delay are not an issue for me, so I hope they take their time.

 

[Infinitron]

Meanwhile, in Grognardia, a rebellion by the forum moderators who are angry the game is becoming too different from Wasteland 1: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=74&start=760#p96524

Ok, the info is extremely light on for targeted shots, but the association with Fallout is bad, the last thing I want to see is where we are shooting/punching everyone in the eyes, with the occasional groin shot just for fun. That was fucking inane stupid and boring.

After the images of the inventory being fucked in the arse, and then this shit, it's getting hard to remain positive at times.

Indeed. I think I'm just about over this game already. I'm honestly not caring when the next update comes out and that makes me sad.

This line jumped out me in the Eurogamer article:

"And - perhaps unsurprisingly - don't hold your breath for an inXile-developed Fallout, either"

Add in aimed shots and Wasteland 2 is really starting to feel more and more like an inXile developed Fallout.

MSPE? Gone.
Heal over time? Gone.
Top down? Gone.
Straight-up keywords? Modified.
List-based inventory? Gone.

It's an isometric game using SPECIAL er, I mean, "CLASSIC", and now we're adding targeted shots. Judging by the maturity on display with the ass trio, we're probably going to have lawldickshots. At least it's still party-based.

Hit the nail on the head. You can probably add learning by doing to the list because I don't see how it can work with the mechanics that inXile have gone with.

I knew I was forgetting something. Added to the list.

Brother None responds:

You forgot turn based instead of phase based and 3D instead of 2D and portraits aren't animated etc. etc.

I'm not sure why this is suddenly coming up now. Brian didn't say we were doing called shots for sure and if we do I wouldn't expect them to work like they did in Fallout.

But Wasteland 2 has always been a game that takes a lot of lessons from many great cRPGs on board, Fallout included. It's not a Fallout sequel, but it isn't a mechanical duplicate of Wasteland 1 either. It was never going to be, we knew that even during the Kickstarter, so what's with the sudden vehemence? We're looking to make the best game we can, retaining what Wasteland is (party-based, keyword-using, phase/turn-based, bird's eye perspective) but without feeling mechanically tied down with no other arguments for mechanics other than "that's how it's done". Are you honestly saying it should have been a straight-down, helicopter-view top down game, simply because that's what Wasteland did it and for no other reason than that? Mechanics need to be able to stand on their own feet and be in sync with how the game as a whole works, or you get a disjointed mess.

Also, this is another reminder that this is a beta, and it's an iterative process. A form of learn by doing being a part of the game is not off the table yet, and there are other Wasteland 1 mechanics that you will see as we progress, such as ranger trainees you can use to replace your original party members if they die.

Also, Drool, what ffordesoon said was "I dunno. I think the similarities to Fallout have been blown way out of proportion by some folks." You then replied with a bunch of mechanics that Fallout *didn't* have. CLASSIC is not that mechanically identical to SPECIAL, especially in how skills work, the keyword system is something Fallout only had incidentally and it didn't work like this, Fallout didn't have a rotatable camera, Fallout had a resting mechanic that Wasteland 2 currently does not (expect iteration on how healing over time/resting works as well), Fallout had a list-based inventory of icons, not a grid-based inventory. So you're kind of defeating your own point.

Wasteland 2 isn't more Fallout than Wasteland. What it *is* is more 90s in mechanics than it is 80s, with more recent lessons sprinkled in for interface and the like. That is what is was promised to be from the Kickstarter out.

And there's lots more fun there. Soon enough the Codex will be more positive about this game than the WL2 forums are, albeit for different reasons.

 

[Daedalos]

It's good to see that the mods of the InXile forums are sceptical too. That's a good sign at least, because some people might be worried that they were just a bunch of yes men. BN schoolin' his mod bros is always fun to look at.

Still the impression I get of how the codex views WL2, are quite negative.


Basically Codex people shitting on Fargo for not making it "fallout-esque" and the tropes of good cRPG enough

and the WL community shitting on Fargo for making it TOO fallout-esque!


This guy just can't win

 

[FeelTheRads]

What's MSPE?

And BN is right. Funny whining about health regeneration, top down (gone? was it ever in?) and lists, like these are what made W1 but nothing about the combat system. Well, except the aimed shots, those will definitely un-wasteland.

 

[Infinitron]

What's MSPE?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenaries,_Spies_and_Private_Eyes

That's right, Wasteland was based on a PnP ruleset (although I don't think it was really as loyal as the AD&D adaptations of the time)

 

[Zetor]

Considering what inxile did to Bard's Tale (a shovelware-grade arpg? really?), skepticism about the treatment of their once-great RPG franchises can be healthy. That said, the old Wasteland - while being one of my favorite RPGs - wasn't perfect by any measure, and complaining about changes just because wl2 isn't an exact replica of its 30-year-old predecessor doesn't make sense. (even though MSPE was better than Fallout's system /trollface)

My questions are along the lines of "Can they have combat that's at least as deep as SRR's (heh)?" and "Is the game going to be good?" I'm going to hold back on judging the game either way until it's in beta -- mostly because I'm not really interested in doing free QA work on systems they've still not finalized.

 

[FeelTheRads]

and complaining about changes just because wl2 isn't an exact replica of its 30-year-old predecessor doesn't make sense.

Well, see... then there's Fallout 3 vs Fallout 1&2. The same kind of ehm.. reasoning was used then too. What, you want Fallout 3 to be just like Fallout 1? Who wants turn-based nowadays? And so on.

Basically, what I'm saying is that they should at least be consistent. It should have been game over for them when it was obvious that the game won't have the same combat system, which was pretty much the best thing about W1.

 

[hiver]

That train left the station loooong time ago. But of course, its Drool, one of the biggest morons on that site.

also, a pearl by bn:

And Fallout's aimed shots were not a particularly good mechanic,

:snort:

 

[Gregz]

Considering what inxile did to Bard's Tale (a shovelware-grade arpg? really?), skepticism about the treatment of their once-great RPG franchises can be healthy. That said, the old Wasteland - while being one of my favorite RPGs - wasn't perfect by any measure, and complaining about changes just because wl2 isn't an exact replica of its 30-year-old predecessor doesn't make sense. (even though MSPE was better than Fallout's system /trollface)

My questions are along the lines of "Can they have combat that's at least as deep as SRR's (heh)?" and "Is the game going to be good?" I'm going to hold back on judging the game either way until it's in beta -- mostly because I'm not really interested in doing free QA work on systems they've still not finalized.

Assuming the game has random encounters with trash mob packs, not including a quick-combat option (like Wasteland had) is a VERY valid complaint.

It's fun to LARP through important story battles using VATS/JA2 level of detail combat, but it's equally unfun to have to use that level of detail vs. 4x20 giant fleas.

 

[Infinitron]

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=74&start=780#p96612

Honestly, I'm not going to dig down and argue blow-by-blow because I sympathize with the perspective of WL1 fans (I am one, though I'm more of a Fallout fan), it's similar (though hopefully not as bad) to a place I've been in myself. There are a lot of mechanical changes and dissimilarities with both WL1 and Fallout, the first task of Wasteland 2 is to live up to its vision doc more so than anything else, and for that we pick the best mechanics we can. A slanted-eye perspective *is* better than straight top-down, and this new inventory is used in good part because it just works better. I've been playing the latest build a lot this week and inventory has gone from kind of a chore to an easy, intuitive part of the game. Decisions like these are made purely because we want to make the best game we can, not the most Fallout-like game (the inventory works nothing like Fallout's, which was terrible, and yes it was a list, a list of icons, the worst of both worlds).

Yes, as we iterate mechanics are dropped and added. Some will be Wasteland 1 mechanics that just don't work for game balance and challenge (like HOT), but some are Wasteland 1 mechanics added back into the game, like recruits or possibly learn-by-doing. The perspective that this is marching towards being less and less like WL1 is not to my mind an accurate one, the core vision of the game is set and unchanged and I think you guys were ok with most of what we're doing then, right? 3D top-down, turn-based, etc. Things changed and are iterated on one the periphery, and I think generally this is for the best even when it differs from WL1. We didn't add full sentences to keywords to "be like Fallout", it was added because it's mechanically better because it prevents vagueness and confusion while not changing the core way the keyword system works. We didn't go grid-based to "be like Fallout", we did it because it makes for a better inventory.

If we have mechanics that we can make work to make the game better, like a system for aimed shots, we're not going to not do it just because Fallout did it. I can understand that phobia from a fan's perspective, and wanting to be divorced from Fallout, but that's not a good approach to take to game design. Good mechanics are good mechanics, regardless of the inspiration. And Fallout's aimed shots were not a particularly good mechanic, so again, if we do end up doing them (and no one said we will) I'd expect them to work differently. For the sake of making the best cRPG we can we can't slavishly follow either mechanics from WL1 or Fallout, and that will disappoint people on both sides at times, but that's ok in my mind as long as we end up making a great Wasteland game.

 

[Zetor]

and complaining about changes just because wl2 isn't an exact replica of its 30-year-old predecessor doesn't make sense.

Well, see... then there's Fallout 3 vs Fallout 1&2. The same kind of ehm.. reasoning was used then too. What, you want Fallout 3 to be just like Fallout 1? Who wants turn-based nowadays? And so on.

That's because the changes made for F3 were shit. I was actually thinking changes between Wizardry 7 and Wizardry 8, which were similarly extreme, and yet the resulting game was pretty damn good. Just because something is different doesn't mean it's inherently crap.

 

[hiver]

Its a pointless discussion, way too late, they are all stupid.

It was clear from the get go the game will be a Wasteland setting-lore-style + Fallout mechanics hybrid. Without which the kicstarter would never have worked. The kickstarter got the money it did specifically because of TB combat, isometric PoV and Fallout references.
Everyone knew that from day one.

Lots of better posters complained and tried to alter that so Wasteland features get represented more strongly, but were ignored.

 

[Gord]

and complaining about changes just because wl2 isn't an exact replica of its 30-year-old predecessor doesn't make sense.

Well, see... then there's Fallout 3 vs Fallout 1&2. The same kind of ehm.. reasoning was used then too. What, you want Fallout 3 to be just like Fallout 1? Who wants turn-based nowadays? And so on.

Basically, what I'm saying is that they should at least be consistent. It should have been game over for them when it was obvious that the game won't have the same combat system, which was pretty much the best thing about W1.

Fallout 3 was a completely different game with a different scope, while even given the changes, W2 is aiming for something much closer to the intention of W1. Also what would you call consistent in that case?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Fallout 3 was a completely different game with a different scope, while even given the changes, W2 is aiming for something much closer to the intention of W1. Also what would you call consistent in that case?

All I'm saying is that this

complaining about changes just because wl2 isn't an exact replica of its 30-year-old predecessor doesn't make sense

and this

Are you honestly saying it should have been a straight-down, helicopter-view top down game, simply because that's what Wasteland did it and for no other reason than that?

are exactly the kind of arguments used in the Fallout 3 vs Fallout 1&2 argument, and that they are bad.
Not saying that the differences between W1 and W2 are as extreme as between F3 and F1&2.

This is all theoretical, of course, supposing they were actually so very "hardcore" about it, but they only care about some things it seems.

So enough of that. Based on what I read on the W2 forums and kickstarter comments (when I used to read those) those are probably people with ZOMG 1 GAJILLION HOURS OF SKAYRIM + FALLOUT 3 BEST GAEMS EVER butthurt that they can't run around in circles waiting for the health to go up so fuck them.

 

[Daedalos]

Pretty awesome response from BN there...

I'm getting more and more excited about WL2 just reading the updates from him and Fargo... !

Things will be VERY interesting the next 3-4 months... ! Can't wait.

 

[Gord]

You know, this post makes you sound like Roguey made an alt for Wasteland/Fargo...

 

[Daedalos]

You know, this post makes you sound like Roguey made an alt for Wasteland/Fargo...

So it's frowned upon behaviour to express excitement from other people and their work? Well colour me, suprised. Is that the codex mantra? Throw shit at it, regardless of how good or bad it is?

You gotta admit though. BN is very articulate, and quite "right" with his points and arguments. Seems pretty solid so far. I would like to see some counter arguments, he even brings in the vision docs..

This harkens back to what most people say about Fargo "promises" and all that bullshit... BN further shows that InXile actually is on point of what they PROMISED from the kickstarter. People can't accept that, it seems. Oh well.


Most people seem to be sucking fair amounts of dick on Styg (Underrail), along with Larian and a few others... but that's okay. As long as it's not InXile.. because hatin' them is the cool and edgy thing to do right now it seems.

Rather ironic

 

[Gord]

Hey Roguey, don't be upset that I found out your little secret...

Spoiler

You can be all excited about whatever you want, I just pointed out a certain similarity, that's all.

 

[Roguey]

You know, this post makes you sound like Roguey made an alt for Wasteland/Fargo...

Nah, my posts are tinged with bitterness and/or smugness.

 

[sea]

It's fun to LARP through important story battles using VATS/JA2 level of detail combat, but it's equally unfun to have to use that level of detail vs. 4x20 giant fleas.

With Outdoorsman you can skip encounters if you want (and get XP for it). Pretty similar mechanic, but it adds more depth to the skill system as well (especially because there is further opportunity to tweak how Outdoorsman works down the line to give it more functionality).

 

[felipepepe]

Roguey at least is amusing and argue with Sawyer's quotes, almost like debating with Sawyer via proxy. Daedalos is just a fanboy, it's all "I believe in Fargo-senpai, he said W2 will be aweshum!".

 

[Commissar Draco]

Roguey at least is amusing and argue with Sawyer's quotes, almost like debating with Sawyer via proxy. Daedalos is just a fanboy, it's all "I believe in Fargo-senpai, he said W2 will be aweshum!".

Almost? I agree that Rougey is best troll left after late purges.

 

[Gregz]

It's fun to LARP through important story battles using VATS/JA2 level of detail combat, but it's equally unfun to have to use that level of detail vs. 4x20 giant fleas.

With Outdoorsman you can skip encounters if you want (and get XP for it). Pretty similar mechanic, but it adds more depth to the skill system as well (especially because there is further opportunity to tweak how Outdoorsman works down the line to give it more functionality).

I assume that's a perk or skill, I also assume you don't get any loot out of the deal.

In Wasteland you could quick-roll a trash mob set for loot + xp if you want to, and set macros to generate and devour packs of mobs for hours at a time over and over and over XP'ing all the way to a party of supreme jerks (level 255?). Same with The Bard's Tale which used the same engine (4x99 berserkers fight), I miss being able to do that stuff.

There's no way in HELL I would want to do that manually, attack by attack, mob by mob.

Spoiler

Don't get me wrong, JA2 style combat is fun as hell, but sometimes you just wanna roll.