Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[hiver]

It didnt have actual vampires, surely?

i could take tomato killer vampires, or tomato vampire killers, sure... but "real" ones? - you know what i mean...

 

[sea]

Perhaps one could imagine having an intimidation/brute speechcheck that requires both strength 5 AND hard ass level 3 or 4.. for a highlevel check on a baddie..

There are attribute checks in dialogue in the game, though off the top of my head I can't recall any specifics.

I think it would be cool to stack attribute checks with speech checks depending on the situation though... i.e. even if a solution occurs to you, it's not a given that you will actually be able to convince the other person of it.

Btw, it just occured to me that maybe this whole skill C&C discussion might be completely pointless anyway.
Aren't there highly specialized NPCs for you to recruit out in the gameworld so if you come across a skillcheck you can't pass you could just pick up one of them and try it again? I didn't play the alpha extensively and I can't remember most of the stuff they announced in the kickstarter so I would appreciate it if someone could shed light on this.

At least in the beta there are zero situations where you will be progression blocked as a result of not having an adequate skill level, to my knowledge. But, you will probably get non-ideal outcomes as a result. I doubt that will be a problem.

 

[SuicideBunny]

It didnt have actual vampires, surely?

i could take tomato killer vampires, or tomato vampire killers, sure... but "real" ones? - you know what i mean...

so magic 80ies radiation causing ghouls, killer tomatoes and fast moving rootless human shaped plants is ok but magic 80ies radiation causing vampires is not?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

People complaining that there are too many skills? People saying they deserve to be able to have all skills "because it's a party-based game"? (Wtf?)

Purge the popamole.

Arbitrarily subdividing skills just so that every partymember can have their own private skill to invest in and use is just weird. It's kind of applying the logic of a single character game to a party based one: if a raider has to be intimidated, the guy with the highest intimidation skill does the intimidating while the rest sit in a corner playing cards. Either pool the skill scores together or have one "primary" user with the other party members giving part of their skill as a bonus. That way you can get rid of stuff like hardass/smartass/kissass and just do cumulative speech skill + cumulative strength = hardass, cumulative speech + charisma = kissass, cumulative speech + intelligence = smartass, etc.

 

[Lhynn]

People complaining that there are too many skills? People saying they deserve to be able to have all skills "because it's a party-based game"? (Wtf?)

Purge the popamole.

Arbitrarily subdividing skills just so that every partymember can have their own private skill to invest in and use is just weird. It's kind of applying the logic of a single character game to a party based one: if a raider has to be intimidated, the guy with the highest intimidation skill does the intimidating while the rest sit in a corner playing cards. Either pool the skill scores together or have one "primary" user with the other party members giving part of their skill as a bonus. That way you can get rid of stuff like hardass/smartass/kissass and just do cumulative speech skill + cumulative strength = hardass, cumulative speech + charisma = kissass, cumulative speech + intelligence = smartass, etc.

I liked the way exile handled it.

 

[felipepepe]

It didnt have actual vampires, surely?

Bro, we're talking about possibly the most vast and flexible setting ever. You can do almost anything and it fits. You could find a exposed tomb on the ruins of a bombed mega-corporation building. There's a coffin there, right bellow the sun; if you open it, the vampire CEO insides screams and dies. If instead you do something to cover the sun, he rises and attacks you, and after a tought fight you get his sword as a melee weapon or something like that. It could be W2's Kangaxx.

Wasteland 1 fake paragraphs talked about going to Mars, fighting in Verchitin armor and riding Ornijetcopters to save Earth... and it fooled people because it would fit the setting perfectly. Focusing on raiders going pew-pew behind rocks is such a waste...

 

[Infinitron]

People complaining that there are too many skills? People saying they deserve to be able to have all skills "because it's a party-based game"? (Wtf?)

Purge the popamole.

Arbitrarily subdividing skills just so that every partymember can have their own private skill to invest in and use is just weird. It's kind of applying the logic of a single character game to a party based one: if a raider has to be intimidated, the guy with the highest intimidation skill does the intimidating while the rest sit in a corner playing cards. Either pool the skill scores together or have one "primary" user with the other party members giving part of their skill as a bonus. That way you can get rid of stuff like hardass/smartass/kissass and just do cumulative speech skill + cumulative strength = hardass, cumulative speech + charisma = kissass, cumulative speech + intelligence = smartass, etc.

I fail to see why single character games and party-based games should have different "logic".

And it sounds to me like you've been reading the PoE thread a bit too much

Wasteland 1 fake paragraphs talked about going to Mars, fighting in Verchitin armor and riding Ornijetcopters to save Earth... and it fooled people because it would fit the setting perfectly. Focusing on raiders going pew-pew behind rocks is such a waste...

I'm actually not sure that was the intention, for people to be "fooled". I think Wasteland's writers wrote that stuff to be purposely outrageous and thought players would go "wow, WTF is this crazy shit", not "wow, this makes perfect sense in this setting and I can't wait to get there".

 

[felipepepe]

I'm actually not sure that was the intention, for people to be "fooled". I think Wasteland's writers wrote that stuff to be purposely outrageous and thought players would go "wow, WTF is this crazy shit", not "wow, this makes perfect sense in this setting and I can't wait to get there".

58
The Martian Commander slithers forward on his coppery-scaled stomach. "So, Rangers, you have found our secret starport." His laughter, hissed quietly and malevolently, crackles through the speaker on his helmet. "It matters not.
Our robot warriors have conquered your world. You will now come and be our slave..."

You smell the sweet odor of owers as your sight dims and you fall unconscious...

59
The thin Martian atmosphere saps your strength, but you dash across the maroon landscape and dive at the Slavemaster. He raises a pseudo-pod and crashes it down upon your head. A sucker tears your esh, but you strike out and smash his writhing purple lips back into his needle-sharp teeth. The Slavemaster reels back, but you give him no pause, no chance to recover. You wrap your hands around a rock and, as your tortured lungs labor to pull in enough of the oxygen-poor air to keep you conscious, you crush the Slavemaster's head.

You cast the green, gore-spattered rock aside and look at the other slaves. "Come," you growl breathlessly, "Now we ght for our freedom and for our world!"

64
Your Martian guide leads you through a twisting pathway of long-abandoned tunnels that nally leads into a beautifully-sculpted city. The artistry, though alien, makes harmonious symbols that give you a warm feeling when you look at the buildings. The architecture almost sings, and you hear a pleasant symphony of echoes as your booted feet click against the city streets. Your guide, her golden hair riding unfelt breezes, leads you to a massive door. You feel the power and you could swear the patterns change, but you cannot put your ngeron any particular change at any one time. At about the time it hits you, the door speaks - it's alive! "Welcome, Earthmen," it booms, "Speak the name of your beloved and enter as friends."

72
You bow deeply out of respect for the Martian Emperor, and he smiles graciously. He nods toward your guide and looks upon her with love in his eyes. "I thank you, Alandriana. Once again, my beloved daughter, you have served me well."

81
The Ornijetcopter takes o on an azure tongue of ame and shoots toward Phobos. Suddenly, out of the brown shadow of Deimos, three SerFioid ghters stoop on your craft and re their missiles. Your craft shudders under the impact. The blast rips the cockpit away and shreds the controls beyond any chance of repair. With black, choking smoke pouring from the cockpit, the OrnijetCopter spirals into the dense Phobosian jungle!

102
The Serpioid ambush almost takes you by surprise. The Serpioids rise up from the underbrush, which you ignite with your Hamelances, but their tactical advantage spells doom for you. Their advantage evaporates, however, when Finster appears and launches himself at the Serpioid leader. Finster's kick snaps the Serpioid's head back and drops him where he stood. The battle begins and energy weapons burn to life around you...

I would play the shit out of that game. :3

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I fail to see why single character games and party-based games should have different "logic".

Single character game like Fallout can have 18 skills because you'll usually just invest in something like 6 in any playthrough, meaning (in theory) you're forced to specialize. If you had to do the same thing with six characters, you'd need six times the skills, while FO already had trouble creating content applicable to half the skills they had. From what I'm hearing here you'll probably end up with a party with more than enough invested in every skill available, even with nonsense skills like toaster repair thrown in.

edit: unless you say you shouldn't have any type of "specialized" party in a partybased game, but I think that was the premise you rejected.

And it sounds to me like you've been reading the PoE thread a bit too much

How's that?

 

[Zetor]

(snip)

I would play the shit out of that game. :3

I may or may not have written way-too-many-pages of - thankfully unfinished and never 'published' - WL fanfic starring all the 'crappy' NPCs (Felicia, Mayor Pedros, etc) battling the Serpioids. In my defense, I was about 14 years old at the time.

 

[Infinitron]

Single character game like Fallout can have 18 skills because you'll usually just invest in something like 6 in any playthrough, meaning (in theory) you're forced to specialize. If you had to do the same thing with six characters, you'd need six times the skills, while FO already had trouble creating content applicable to half the skills they had. From what I'm hearing here you'll probably end up with a party with more than enough invested in every skill available, even with nonsense skills like toaster repair thrown in.

The greater number of skills isn't the only compensating factor here, but also how much you're able to raise them over the course of your character's career. If you don't get many skill points (and judging by the chargen, you won't) then you might NOT end up with such a party.

(By the way, this is another example of what I complained about in another thread, that people have a bad tendency to appraise RPG systems based on a momentary "snapshot" rather than by how they work in the long term, level to level.)

 

[tuluse]

Arbitrarily subdividing skills just so that every partymember can have their own private skill to invest in and use is just weird. It's kind of applying the logic of a single character game to a party based one: if a raider has to be intimidated, the guy with the highest intimidation skill does the intimidating while the rest sit in a corner playing cards. Either pool the skill scores together or have one "primary" user with the other party members giving part of their skill as a bonus. That way you can get rid of stuff like hardass/smartass/kissass and just do cumulative speech skill + cumulative strength = hardass, cumulative speech + charisma = kissass, cumulative speech + intelligence = smartass, etc.

That sounds like a much worse and more boring design.

Single character game like Fallout can have 18 skills because you'll usually just invest in something like 6 in any playthrough, meaning (in theory) you're forced to specialize. If you had to do the same thing with six characters, you'd need six times the skills, while FO already had trouble creating content applicable to half the skills they had. From what I'm hearing here you'll probably end up with a party with more than enough invested in every skill available, even with nonsense skills like toaster repair thrown in.

Or you can have characters only have 2-3 skills they invest heavily in and then you only need about twice as a many skills. What'd you know, Wasteland 2 has about 30 skills.

 

[tuluse]

Sitting there at character creation thinking long and hard what char to specialize in what skillset only to later discover that my level up skillpoints are stretching thin because I gave all of them too many different things to specialize in so now I have to restart because they suck at everything?

This shouldn't happen because you should learn in the first 2-3 level ups how many skills you can specialize in. Which should mean you only have a few wasted skill points.

And then I have to guess which skills are save to dump because I want to avoid the situation where they stand in front of a device and can't repair it and I hate this C&C because I want to know what that device does right now!!!

There is a company that makes games designed for you. You will always be able to get enough skill points to do everything in the game -> http://forums.bethsoft.com/

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

The greater number of skills isn't the only compensating factor here, but also how much you're able to raise them over the course of your character's career. If you get few skill points (and judging by the chargen, you won't) then you might NOT end up with such a party.

Right, yeah, stupid on my part.

 

[Brother None]

The fake Martian storyline was fun but obviously not meant to "fool" the player. There were fake paragraphs, with wrong passwords and the like, strewn throughout, the Martian invasion was more of an Easter Egg. It is referenced a few times throughout WL2, most noticeably in the beta in RNC with the guy who went insane looking for verchitin armor.

To be honest, the original game had all that wacky 80's stuff going on.

Like what, exactly? There was punk clothing-style (which a number of portraits/looks retain) and all the robots named -tron in the sewers, and the look of the game was very colorful, but beyond that I'm not sure what you have in mind that WL1 did sillier than WL2 has. They both got giant killer bunnies!

Wasteland 2 is also chock-full of 80s reference and setting material.

The greater number of skills isn't the only compensating factor here, but also how much you're able to raise them over the course of your character's career. If you get few skill points (and judging by the chargen, you won't) then you might NOT end up with such a party.

The character system is of course not final. Attribute skill-caps still aren't in and the amount of skill points you get at chargen and levelup can and will be tweaked. That is "balance pass" stuff that comes down the line, it gets unbalanced during development and we re-balanced it (this patch did a lot for how attributes work in particular), but there's no point in perfectly balancing things right now because we will keep changing systems and levels, so you don't do these final balances until you're much closer to release. Appraising it as if it's a final system will give a skewed perspective on its functionality.

 

[Infinitron]

Anybody run into this guy? http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=6399

I've got this NPC named "The Provost" following me in the Rail Nomad Camp. He was originally speaking Latin but now refuses to say anything else. I killed him to take a look at his inventory, he was holding a medallion of owl or something like that? I looked up "provost" and it appears to be what we refer to in my country (Australia) as a Deputy Vice-Chancellor of a higher education institution.

I have no idea why he's following me, or if I missed something. Seems as if he's from some kind of creepy cult school or something. Just wondering if anyone knew what he is?

Yeah that's the one - I did the same (killed and reloaded).

I transcribed the Latin that I managed to copy down. I may have read it incorrectly since some of it makes no sense.

"Hic situs est Phaeton, currus auriga paterni..."
Here lies Phaeton, the car driver of his father's ...

"Quem si non tenuit, magnis tamen excidit ausis."
Yet if he did not hold, forced, however, she has hewn out check them.

"Homo est deus"
Man is God/The man is a God.

I love this kind of weird stuff.

 

[SuicideBunny]

he's quoting ovid.

 

[Zombra]

Arbitrarily subdividing skills just so that every partymember can have their own private skill to invest in and use is just weird.

There's a difference between doing it arbitrarily to force limited parties, and simply having lots of different things the characters can do. I agree that having lockboxes and safes as nothing more than two different types of treasure chest is pretty arbitrary, but having vehicles to repair, diseases to cure, and treaties to negotiate is not. Not every 4-man party has to be heroically well-suited to face 30 different types of challenges.

Btw, it just occured to me that maybe this whole skill C&C discussion might be completely pointless anyway.
Aren't there highly specialized NPCs for you to recruit out in the gameworld so if you come across a skillcheck you can't pass you could just pick up one of them and try it again?

So a locked door doesn't matter if somewhere in the world there is an NPC that can kick it down? A conversation option doesn't matter if somewhere an NPC has a high enough skill to select it? A powerful enemy doesn't matter if somewhere there is a character who can exploit a certain vulnerability? Are you really going to go back and forth across the world to drag every NPC to every single obstacle in the game? And you suggest that because this strategy is possible, it's pointless to try to have challenges throughout the game that not every party will always be well-prepared for?

Sounds to me like you should just edit your save files to give your whole party max values in every skill and be done with it, and save yourself some time. It's not hard.

 

[hiver]

It didnt have actual vampires, surely?

i could take tomato killer vampires, or tomato vampire killers, sure... but "real" ones? - you know what i mean...

so magic 80ies radiation causing ghouls, killer tomatoes and fast moving rootless human shaped plants is ok but magic 80ies radiation causing vampires is not?

No, its not. The usual vampires are a fantasy staple, way out of the scope of the sci-fi pulp-retro setting as Fallout is.

You cant actually mix the two, without deteriorating the whole thing into complete incoherent nonsense.

A pulpy sci-fi "vampire" of some kind, that would be another matter. Theoretically.

It didnt have actual vampires, surely?

Bro, we're talking about possibly the most vast and flexible setting ever. You can do almost anything and it fits. You could find a exposed tomb on the ruins of a bombed mega-corporation building. There's a coffin there, right bellow the sun; if you open it, the vampire CEO insides screams and dies. If instead you do something to cover the sun, he rises and attacks you, and after a tought fight you get his sword as a melee weapon or something like that. It could be W2's Kangaxx.

Wasteland 1 fake paragraphs talked about going to Mars, fighting in Verchitin armor and riding Ornijetcopters to save Earth... and it fooled people because it would fit the setting perfectly. Focusing on raiders going pew-pew behind rocks is such a waste...

A stainless steel leach - yes. Sure. Some sort of whacky "vampire" tomatoes - sure.
But not the actual fantasy vampire.

Some kind of dr. Moreau mutant man-beast hybrid - sure.
Real werewolf - no.


The setting doesnt have to be the choice between some grim dark post apoc and complete incoherent fantasy with kitchen sink and the dog thrown in.
Fallouts certainly werent grim dark, especially the second one.

But some specifics and scopes of the setting should be kept in check.

The character system is of course not final. Attribute skill-caps still aren't in and the amount of skill points you get at chargen and levelup can and will be tweaked. That is "balance pass" stuff that comes down the line, it gets unbalanced during development and we re-balanced it (this patch did a lot for how attributes work in particular), but there's no point in perfectly balancing things right now because we will keep changing systems and levels, so you don't do these final balances until you're much closer to release. Appraising it as if it's a final system will give a skewed perspective on its functionality.

I could be wrong but it doesnt seem to me that you could slow down the character advancement to such a level in this game - without making the players feel they are not improving and growing at all. Which of course defeats one of the main purposes of a RPG like this.

It would be much better to concentrate on creating reactive C&C content of different kinds - of mutually really exclusive content, instead.


/

Tangentially, if this beta represents about one third of the game...

That means that Arizona map will consist of Citadel, Ag center, Highpool, Rail Nomads, Prison, Damonta and Darwins village. - which would be 50% of the game.
The Citadel, Ag center and Highpool dont have much to them in terms of RPG gameplay, being very linear small, combat focused maps...

And then it means that California should also have 4 or five locations to it. Just like these. ... LA, Synths base of some kind, The Mad preacher location.... those nuclear suicide mutants and... one, two more small ones?
With several being linear and mostly devoid of any internal C&C...


Just trying to get an overview...

 

[Elhoim]

Although the beta is short to complete, you’ll quickly realise how much you’re missing out on with every decision you make. InXile is building an almost absurd amount of content that only a few people will ever see.

WWwhhhaat?

We have to send this guy a copy of AoD then.

 

[SuicideBunny]

No, its not. The usual vampires are a fantasy staple, way out of the scope of the sci-fi pulp-retro setting as Fallout is.

You cant actually mix the two, without deteriorating the whole thing into complete incoherent nonsense.

err, fallout? we're talking wasteland. huge fucking difference between those two.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089489/

 

[Infinitron]

The original I Am Legend novel is actually a post-apocalyptic vampire story.

 

[hiver]

Although the beta is short to complete, you’ll quickly realise how much you’re missing out on with every decision you make. InXile is building an almost absurd amount of content that only a few people will ever see.

WWwhhhaat?

We have to send this guy a copy of AoD then.

You know how that would end.... "Bwaaaahhhh i cant do everything in the gaeem! bwaaah" - and of course, "i cant get through the first fiiight aaaahhh!"

But you know.. you guys really should send copies to all these shites. And then troll them and laugh at them. Its all PR in the end.

No, its not. The usual vampires are a fantasy staple, way out of the scope of the sci-fi pulp-retro setting as Fallout is.

You cant actually mix the two, without deteriorating the whole thing into complete incoherent nonsense.

err, fallout? we're talking wasteland. huge fucking difference between those two.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089489/

tap...tap...tap...

I know, yes. Yet... Wasteland is predecessor of Fallout and both are in the scope of pulpy sci-fi retro setting.

Wasteland being whackier - BUT NOT fantasy.

Did you ever read the Stainless steel leach, btw? You should if you didnt.

The original I Am Legend novel is actually a post-apocalyptic vampire story.

Except those were not actual Transylvania blood drinking fantasy Vampires.

 

[SuicideBunny]

I know, yes. Yet... Wasteland is predecessor of Fallout and both are in the scope of pulpy sci-fi retro setting.

Wasteland being whackier - BUT NOT fantasy.

sure, 'cept wasteland is not really a predecessor to fallout in any way other than a huge source of inspiration and it actually came out in the 80ies and thus isn't a retro setting by any means. (then) contamporary sci-fi b-movie stuff like the vampires from lifeforce or the football killer alien bots from moontrap fit right in along radangels or the stuff in the ag center.

Did you ever read the Stainless steel leach, btw? You should if you didnt.

zelazny? i read a ton of him when i was a kid but don't remember that one. will check it out eventually but my reading schedule's kinda busy atm.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Btw, it just occured to me that maybe this whole skill C&C discussion might be completely pointless anyway.
Aren't there highly specialized NPCs for you to recruit out in the gameworld so if you come across a skillcheck you can't pass you could just pick up one of them and try it again?

So a locked door doesn't matter if somewhere in the world there is an NPC that can kick it down? A conversation option doesn't matter if somewhere an NPC has a high enough skill to select it? A powerful enemy doesn't matter if somewhere there is a character who can exploit a certain vulnerability? Are you really going to go back and forth across the world to drag every NPC to every single obstacle in the game? And you suggest that because this strategy is possible, it's pointless to try to have challenges throughout the game that not every party will always be well-prepared for?

Sounds to me like you should just edit your save files to give your whole party max values in every skill and be done with it, and save yourself some time. It's not hard.

You know what, if I'm honest I don't really care. Skill C&C definitely don't do anything for me IN A PARTY BASED GAME but whatever, as long as they provide enough approaches to most situations to make all kinds of well balanced parties fun to play (and since this isn't Dwarf Fortress constantly failing isn't fun) I'm okay with it.