Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Pantalones]

When things are improve by use the 'underutilized skills wasting my point distribution!' cries that come from playing fallout don't really matter. The more skills, the better and presumably you have to hunt them down to learn them in many cases.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

There's no improve by use.
And there never will be.
Ever.

 

[agris]

No, that's a good point. I was thinking that the 'trait' applied to a PC would just be the skill at max, but time spent coding the implementation and the negatives would probably be better spent improving the frequency of skill checks.

 

[Pantalones]

There's no improve by use.
And there never will be.
Ever.

Then they have failed us completely.

 

[Infinitron]

Wasteland 2 forums have an entire thread for this: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6954

 

[tuluse]

This is your reminder that Fargo was responsible for perks being added to Fallout because he felt just adding points into skills wasn't enough to do on level up.

 

[Infinitron]

This is your reminder that Fargo was responsible for perks being added to Fallout because he felt just adding points into skills wasn't enough to do on level up.

To be fair, that was in a game with one PC.

 

[MicoSelva]

But Fallout was a one-character game, Wasteland games are squad-based, therefore you have four times as much level-ups and enough to do.

Besides, perks, as great as they are, completely screw the balance of the game and make it too easy. If Wasteland 2 is to pose any tactical challenge, characters should not become overpowered, especially since you will have up to seven of them, with the potential to min-max at least four.

 

[WhiteGuts]

I see Infinitron's point there. Would it be "balanced" to have all the rangers get perks ?

 

[Pantalones]

I see Infinitron's point there. Would it be "balanced" to have all the rangers get perks ?

It worked well in silent storm. With no level by use, and no perks, no traits, no aimed shots I am not surprised people are complaining about the beta.

 

[Infinitron]

It depends on how you define "perks". My impression of Fallout perks is that they're intended to be just that - tiny little "superpowers" to spice the game up and make playing your lone PC more interesting.

A party-based game doesn't need "perks", but it could use something less superpowerish, like D&D 3E feats.

But of course, D&D isn't skill-based the way Wasteland is, so it's not clear where you'd fit them in the existing Wasteland system.

 

[Pantalones]

Yes, they toned them down in SS and it was very nice RPG system and great combat. Too bad it had other problems.

 

[felipepepe]

They could just use a advantage / disadvantage system like GURPS... or anything else, really. I rather have a broken system than a boring one.

 

[tuluse]

I could come up with a dozen combat based perks that would work for wasteland without being overpowered right off the top of my head.

Fleet footed - movement costs reduced
Quick reactions - initiative increased
Careful planner - ambush ap cost reduced by 1
Risky - +10% crit chance, -5% total accuracy
Point blank shot - reduced "under pressure" penalty, decrease weapon range
Bloodthirsty - gain ap on either hitting or killing an enemy, maybe extra ap for killing is an upgrade
Cowardly - +10% evasion, -20% accuracy if within x spaces of an enemy
Brash - increased accuracy when not in cover, decreased evasion
Sneaky - doesn't trigger enemy ambushes, or at least can get closer first, maybe with an upgrade to super sneaky
cantthinkofacoolname - increased ranged evasion, decreased melee evasion
the inverse of the above

That's 13 if you count the possible upgrade perks.

 

[Infinitron]

The thing about Fallout perks is that because the Fallout games weren't really very tactical, they didn't really have to be that useful. They were a thing you could treat as a flavor/roleplaying choice. I don't think that would fit as well in Wasteland.

If I had to implement something like perks in this game, I'd implement them as a very short talent tree (such that you don't get more than a few of them over the course of the game), with each one having a significant/decisive effect on your character's tactical role in combat.

I'd prefer that over a large list of boring +10%/-10% type stuff that you might end up picking up repeatedly for multiple characters in your party, that all end up feeling kinda redundant.

 

[felipepepe]

Perks worked well in Fallout Tactics, and that game is 10x more tactical than W2...

 

[tuluse]

The thing about Fallout perks is that because the Fallout games weren't really very tactical, they didn't really have to be that useful. They were a thing you could treat as a flavor/roleplaying choice. I don't think that would fit as well in Wasteland.

If I had to implement something like perks in this game, I'd implement them as a very short talent tree (such that you don't get more than a few of them over the course of the game), with each one having a significant/decisive effect on your character's tactical role in combat.

I'd prefer that over a large list of boring +10%/-10% type stuff that you might end up picking up repeatedly for multiple characters in your party, that all end up feeling kinda redundant.

What's more boring, being able to adjust some things +/- 10% or not being able to?

 

[Zombra]

What's more boring, being able to adjust some things +/- 10% or not being able to?

Eh. "Better than nothin'" isn't a very strong case for investing dev resources in a feature.

 

[Infinitron]

The thing about Fallout perks is that because the Fallout games weren't really very tactical, they didn't really have to be that useful. They were a thing you could treat as a flavor/roleplaying choice. I don't think that would fit as well in Wasteland.

If I had to implement something like perks in this game, I'd implement them as a very short talent tree (such that you don't get more than a few of them over the course of the game), with each one having a significant/decisive effect on your character's tactical role in combat.

I'd prefer that over a large list of boring +10%/-10% type stuff that you might end up picking up repeatedly for multiple characters in your party, that all end up feeling kinda redundant.

What's more boring, being able to adjust some things +/- 10% or not being able to?

I don't know if that's relevant. I tend to like elegant systems, where every choice clearly matters and helps you create cool builds. But sure, you could slap a bunch of cool perks into Wasteland 2 and call it a day, though it would be harder to balance, etc.

 

[Xeon]

They could just use a advantage / disadvantage system

Is this similar to Jagged Alliance, I never played the game but i watched a personality perks or traits that you choose that are advantages and disadvantages like a smoker or unable to swim or something like that.

That was pretty cool, it kinda makes role playing an entire party a little more fun I think. Kinda like the bum from the InXile video who kept stealing the bottle but without being scripted I guess.

 

[tuluse]

Eh. "Better than nothin'" isn't a very strong case for investing dev resources in a feature.

Well it's not my job to budget or plan this game. I just wish there was more spice to the character system. Something other than just raising chance to hit/accomplish skill.

 

[Ninjerk]

They could just use a advantage / disadvantage system

Is this similar to Jagged Alliance, I never played the game but i watched a personality perks or traits that you choose that are advantages and disadvantages like a smoker or unable to swim or something like that.

That was pretty cool, it kinda makes role playing an entire party a little more fun I think. Kinda like the bum from the InXile video who kept stealing the bottle but without being scripted I guess.

I don't know about GURPS, but Legend of the Five Rings PnP and IIRC Changeling: The Dreaming had Advantage/Disadvantage systems where you could spend your character creation resources to gain odd advantages like being able to reroll once a session. Likewise, you could take a disadvantage to gain character creation points (to spend on stats or w/e) that would give you some mechanical disadvantage or force you to roleplay your character in a different way.

 

[mikaelis]

In the true codex tradition:

cantthinkofacoolname - increased ranged evasion, decreased melee evasion

capitalistic swine - trait

the inverse of the above

anarchistic scum - trait

Also,

increased range evasion, increased melee evasion, increased intelligence, highly decreased charisma

true codexer/delusionist/white knight - late trait

 

[Onholyservicebound]

tuluse
Exactly, it's the devs job to balance the game, I think it's sad that people don't want features because they think the devs can't handle balancing or implementing it.

Fallout 1 and 2 had pretty broken unbalanced systems, way more so than anything in Wasteland currently, I wouldn't sacrifice that complexity for the sake of "streamlining". Not that I'd argue against it being well balanced, I just agree with this:

Perks worked well in Fallout Tactics, and that game is 10x more tactical than W2...

But seriously, nobody's suggesting features with the intention of them being broken, and it's not really my fault if Wasteland can't handle it. I'm playing D:OS right now and it has 4 different areas in which your characters progresses, compared to 1 in Wasteland, (and 2 for creation.) you have 4 characters in that game and I don't see any big issue with balancing, and it sure as hell isn't too easy.

 

[Decado]

Also,

increased range evasion, increased melee evasion, increased intelligence, highly decreased charisma

true codexer/delusionist/white knight - late trait

Lol.

Was thinking of an in-game fedora that makes female NPCs more likely to talk to you, and destroys your chances of getting laid.