Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Major_Blackhart, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. AdvancedHero Arbiter

    AdvancedHero
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Messages:
    287
    Location:
    USA
    It does, as it is supposed to.
    The DOS version does more than it is supposed to.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    15,561
    Location:
    Bjørgvin
    Funny how some of the Japanese Wizardries implemented the decreasing stats, when it was obviously a bug. I used to think it was an undocumented design feature, until one of my characters had one stat drop from 0 to 31.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
    ^ Top  
  3. AdvancedHero Arbiter

    AdvancedHero
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Messages:
    287
    Location:
    USA
    Was it a bug? I always thought it was a consciously implemented feature, but I don't know for sure either way.
    It looks like the Wizardry manual just says "your characteristics may change" upon leveling up.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. samuraigaiden Liturgist

    samuraigaiden
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,223
    RPG Wokedex
    Decreasing stats isn’t a bug. The game actually accounts for it in a way. Wizardry’s levels are multipliers, that way a level 10 warrior with 5 strength is still way stronger than a level 1 warrior with 11 strength.

    The DOS version of Wiz 1 (not 100% sure about Wiz 2 and 3) does decrease stats beyond what was originally intended and as a result not only is there a much higher risk of losing a character on level up if vitality is too low but also stats will go nuts at times (I posted an image here a while ago of a high level char with bugged out stats).

    Still, the game is perfectly beatable under these conditions.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    15,561
    Location:
    Bjørgvin
    Sounds weird to implement stat decreases, buy at the same time not take into account what happens if stats drop below 0.
    I don't mind the stat descreases myself, since it makes things more interesting, but overflow bugs are always annoying.
     
    ^ Top  
  6. samuraigaiden Liturgist

    samuraigaiden
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,223
    RPG Wokedex
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    15,561
    Location:
    Bjørgvin
    This is why the capping of stats at 15 for imported characters is so rage inducing in Wiz 3.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. newtmonkey Arcane

    newtmonkey
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,400
    Location:
    Kobold Caves
    The PC versions of Wiz 1-3 all have the stat decrease "bug." When you level up, any stat that is below 18 has roughly a 33% chance of dropping, 33% chance of staying the same, and 33% chance of increasing. It's not quite as noticeable in Wiz 1/2 because you would typically have 18s in your most important stats. It becomes a massive problem with Wiz 3 because importing your party caps your stats at the class minimums, which are all lower than 18.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. AdvancedHero Arbiter

    AdvancedHero
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Messages:
    287
    Location:
    USA
    Now I'm getting really curious. Was this a bug or an intended feature?
    I've been recently listening to the MattChat interviews with Woodhead and Robert Sirotek, and Woodhead mentioned that they play tested extensively and fixed most issues and bugs before launching "except for one famous bug" which stayed in. Was this an unintentional bug that they decided to take on as a feature?
    Stats even have a chance of decreasing in Wizardry 6 as well, so this isn't just a feature of the earlier games- and this would have been deliberate.
    It is just a question of whether this was planned or just happened during development and they decided to keep it in.
     
    • FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,995
    RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
    If Data Driven Gamer post is correct then I don't think it's a bug
    If it was unintended why would the chance increase the more your character age? It seems like it's there to simulate character health deteriorating due to hardships of adventuring.
     
    ^ Top  
  11. AdvancedHero Arbiter

    AdvancedHero
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Messages:
    287
    Location:
    USA
    Ah, good point.
    I always thought it was a thought-out feature; I didn't start doubting until last page. Forgive me, Woodhead...
    :negative:
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Bad Sector Arcane Patron

    Bad Sector
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2012
    Messages:
    946
    Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
    The source code for the Apple ][ version of Wizardry 1 has been reconstructed some time ago (you can find it here) so it is possible to find the relevant logic. I took a look and the part that governs gain/loss of attributes seems to be this:

    Code:
    BEGIN (* GAINLOST *)
      FOR ATTRIBX := STRENGTH TO LUCK DO
        BEGIN
          IF (RANDOM MOD 4) <> 0 THEN
            BEGIN
              ATTRVAL := CHARACTR[ PARTYX].ATTRIB[ ATTRIBX];
              IF (RANDOM MOD 130) <
                 (CHARACTR[ PARTYX].AGE DIV 52) THEN
                IF (ATTRVAL = 18) AND
                   ((RANDOM MOD 6) <> 4) THEN
                  (* NOTHING *)
                ELSE
                  BEGIN
                    ATTRVAL := ATTRVAL - 1;
                    WRITE(  'YOU LOST ');
                    PRATTRIB;
                    IF ATTRIBX = VITALITY THEN
                      IF ATTRVAL = 2 THEN
                        OLDAGE
                  END
              ELSE
                BEGIN
                  IF ATTRVAL <> 18 THEN
                    BEGIN
                      ATTRVAL := ATTRVAL + 1;
                      WRITE(  'YOU GAINED ');
                      PRATTRIB
                    END
                END;
              CHARACTR[ PARTYX].ATTRIB[ ATTRIBX] := ATTRVAL
            END
        END
    END;  (* GAINLOST *)
    
    The "FOR ATTRIBX := STRENGTH TO LUCK DO" is just the loop that goes over each attribute, "PARTYX" is the current party member index, "CHARACTR" is an array containing all the party characters, "PRATTRIB" just writes the attribute name of "ATTRIBX" to the string (e.g. "YOU LOST LUCK") and "OLDAGE" kills the character with a message about dying due to old age (its HP is set to 0 and status to "LOST").

    The crucial part is this: "IF (RANDOM MOD 130) < (CHARACTR[ PARTYX].AGE DIV 52) THEN"

    "RANDOM" is a function that returns a random value between 0 to 32767. The expression "RANDOM MOD 130" evaluates to the remainder of the division "RANDOM / 130", essentially giving a random value between 0 and 129. So the check to decrease a stat (ignoring the special case where the stat is 18 here) is "if your age is greater than a random value between 0 and 129" (the AGE is stored in terms of weeks, thus the division with 52).

    Now, if we assume that the code is the same in the PC version, i think the answer for the problem is simple: the RANDOM function used in the Apple ][ version has a different value distribution than the RANDOM function used in the PC version. The DOS version is really a bootloader for the booter disks though and considering that it is written in UCSD Pascal, which is actually interpreted from a custom bytecode (p-code) instead of native code, it most likely isn't that easy to disassemble it.

    However considering that the original RANDOM function is written in assembly, they'd have to rewrite that function anyway. UCSD Pascal does not have a RANDOM function (unlike, say, Turbo Pascal) so they'd have to write one themselves. An important part is that the original RANDOM function used a bunch of bit shift operations - and UCSD Pascal does NOT have bit shifting operators! So at best they'd have to approximate using multiplication and division - or just use a different algorithm, which is probably what they did and why there is a difference in behavior between the two versions as these modulo checks are very susceptible to biasing (this can be seen in other checks too, e.g. resurrection is more likely to fail in the PC version too and it is also done via a RANDOM MOD check).

    And basically that is my guess why in the PC version you are more likely to lose stats. Later ports most likely fixed their checks to be less biased.

    EDIT: forgot a word, UCSD Pascal does NOT have bit shifting operators, hence why the need for approximation :-P
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
    • Informative x 5
    • Brofist x 2
    • Prestigious x 2
    • nice x 1
    • Interesting x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Dungeon Lord Scholar

    Dungeon Lord
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Messages:
    179
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. grimer Novice

    grimer
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2021
    Messages:
    57
    hello i just finished wizardry 6 and have some questions before importing to 7

    1. is diamond eyes obtainable within 7 or do i have to import it from 6? also is it a guaranteed or rare drop? ive checked everywhere online and none of them say how the weapon is obtained.

    2. is it worth changing my hybrids back into basic spellcasters before importing for higher MP regen?

    3. if i killed bela in 6 does he still show up in 8? i didnt get the diamond ring but id like to talk to him about the events in 6 anyway
     
    ^ Top  
  15. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    15,561
    Location:
    Bjørgvin
    2. If you change hybrids into basics before importing you won't be able to equip the best items, and they will not be transfered. This may be a bigger problem than MP regen. I think Wiz 7 fixed things so that your MP regen is based on current class instead of starting class.
    The best course of action may be to class change after importing, but not so much for the MP regen as for getting those skills points which are more precious in Wiz 7 than they were in Wiz 6. You will get more of them and get them faster with basic classes.
     
    ^ Top  
  16. Fowyr Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Fowyr
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    6,535
    It's available I think, but dunno where. Probably it's a rare chest treasure. There was a MadGod's editor that shown all these things.
    I think Wiz7 have annoying bug with a fixed MP regen. So you can import all your characters and then change their classes. It's very important to at least quickly train that cartography skill.
    Item transfer is not dependent on classes, try to find list of items that are transferred always and items that transferred at random.

    Poor Rebecca and Bela. I think he would be hostile, then, but can't remember much now.
     
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    15,561
    Location:
    Bjørgvin
    I could swear you needed to equip those nice weapons for them to transfer.
     
    ^ Top  
  18. grimer Novice

    grimer
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2021
    Messages:
    57
    i think youre guaranteed to import 1 super item per character and you only need to equip them when you have several of them in your inventory because otherwise it will be chosen at random. ill probably empty my inventory except for 1 super item, some potions and low level armor before importing.

    thanks ill go check madgods tool. diamond eyes is practically impossible to obtain in 6 especially since the greater demons/pit fiends that drop them are a rare encounter in itself (except the xorphitus fight ofc)

    yea grauken has a detailed post on pg 282 about importing to wizardry 7. is the cartography skill just automap? i make my own maps anyway so i think ill spend those skill points on more important skills instead
     
    ^ Top  
  19. gman42 Novice

    gman42
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    41
    I think it might be equip it to *guarantee* transfer, not equipping it might just mean a lot more tedium in importing over and over until you get what you want.
     
    ^ Top  
  20. grimer Novice

    grimer
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2021
    Messages:
    57
    bros i finally got diamond eyes in wizardry 6 after 423 pit fiend encounters :dealwithit:. now i just need to buy some armor and potions from queequeg and i can import my party to wizardry 7.

    was wizardry the first rpg to introduce rare item drops? because that would also explain why this feature is so prevalent among japanese games
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Yes Yes x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    15,561
    Location:
    Bjørgvin
    Wizardry 1 was perhaps the first.
    I remember never finding a Dagger of Evil (or whatever it was called that weapon that could turn a a Thief into a Ninja).
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
    ^ Top  
  22. grimer Novice

    grimer
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2021
    Messages:
    57
    yea i meant wizardry 1 hence the japanese influence. might and magic 2 predates wizardry 6 and there were already rare item drops in that game like moon rocks.
     
    ^ Top  
  23. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    27,649
    depends on what you mean by 'rare item drops', as rogue predates it and has a variety of rare item drops
     
    ^ Top  
  24. grimer Novice

    grimer
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2021
    Messages:
    57
    the stupid thing wont even import smh. am i missing something? my character has it equipped
    by rare item drops i mean something like 1 in 500 chance for a cool weapon
     
    ^ Top  
  25. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2019
    Messages:
    7,184
    Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Diablo 2 Zed rune was what 1 in 2 billion?
     
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.