The writing in this game is average

[Angthoron]

Thats not my quote, btw.

and also, felipepepe suddenly berserking and going after companions is so BG2.
Only it was done much more effectively there, you turning into 3 meters tall monster and all. And that being directly connected to the story.
The Watcher of souls doesnt provide that kind of singleminded murderous vibe exactly.

You could find your Watcher next to a party character after a rest.

Watching.

 

[hiver]

... wait, that is my quote, ah well, it was just a matter of time anyway.

Watcher...watching... ? I find "my watcher" ... wut?

You mean like i see my character standing next to my party in isometric PoV? Very engaging. O_O

 

[Gord]

To me it seems that it's anyway only hinting at a possibility. You might go mad, but nobody says that it has to happen, let alone when.
The only precedence I've encountered (still act1) went mad because he got a particularly unlucky selection of previous lifes and it only happened after many years. Your own char can well be different.

I see ~3 or 4 possible motivations for your character to "choose" from (possible madness, just finding out more about your condition, investigating the leaden key and its leader, helping against the legacy). That's already a bit more than in many other games. Maybe those motivations don't do it for you, fine. But that's always a very subjective thing anyway.

 

[Angthoron]

Watcher...watching... ? I find "my watcher" ... wut?

You mean like i see my character standing next to my party in isometric PoV? Very engaging. O_O

No, I mean having things written out with letters, describing you waking up creepily staring at your companions like you normally stare at souls. It works as a bit of a motivator and hint of madness, if you want to keep that element.

To me it seems that it's anyway only hinting at a possibility. You might go mad, but nobody says that it has to happen, let alone when.
The only precedence I've encountered (still act1) went mad because he got a particularly unlucky selection of previous lifes and it only happened after many years. Your own char can well be different.

I see ~3 or 4 possible motivations for your character to "choose" from (possible madness, just finding out more about your condition, investigating the leaden key and its leader, helping against the legacy). That's already a bit more than in many other games. Maybe those motivations don't do it for you, fine. But that's always a very subjective thing anyway.

I dunno - does it do it for you? I couldn't see why the PC wants to get rid of his power at all, and that seems to be one of the main considerations in dialogues concerning it. For that matter, I don't exactly know why the PC decides that his condition equates with the Leaden Key in the first place, either. Maybe once I start my second playthrough it'll be more obvious in hindsight, but on the first run, I was like "Wat, why is he my most immediate goal? My immediate goal was a little house on the prairie..."

 

[RK47]

You guys don't understand, it's just a videogame so that's a very strong and impactful morally crushing scene.

 

[Gord]

I dunno - does it do it for you? I couldn't see why the PC wants to get rid of his power at all, and that seems to be one of the main considerations in dialogues concerning it. For that matter, I don't exactly know why the PC decides that his condition equates with the Leaden Key in the first place, either. Maybe once I start my second playthrough it'll be more obvious in hindsight, but on the first run, I was like "Wat, why is he my most immediate goal? My immediate goal was a little house on the prairie..."

I'm interested enough in the entire thing to go on.
Initially your char is anyway more like "oh, I'm seeing strange things, that can't be good, better get help" but afterwards I wanted to find out what caused the condition and what the guy with the mask wanted to do - and eventually what my (previous incarnation's) connection to him was.
I also had the impression that you have some amount of freedom in choosing your answers regarding your thoughts about your condition.

Since I'm also a pathologic do-gooder I would like to find out more about the Leaden Key's plans and the Legacy as well.
So yes, for me it worked well enough, but as I said, I think that's subjective. I don't need a very immediate and pressing danger/necessity to be motivated with playing along, esp. if something about the setting piques my interest.

 

[Irenaeus]

Yeah, I agree with Gord.

 

[Ninjerk]

We know.

 

[Angthoron]

I dunno - does it do it for you? I couldn't see why the PC wants to get rid of his power at all, and that seems to be one of the main considerations in dialogues concerning it. For that matter, I don't exactly know why the PC decides that his condition equates with the Leaden Key in the first place, either. Maybe once I start my second playthrough it'll be more obvious in hindsight, but on the first run, I was like "Wat, why is he my most immediate goal? My immediate goal was a little house on the prairie..."

I'm interested enough in the entire thing to go on.
Initially your char is anyway more like "oh, I'm seeing strange things, that can't be good, better get help" but afterwards I wanted to find out what caused the condition and what the guy with the mask wanted to do - and eventually what my (previous incarnation's) connection to him was.
Since I'm also a pathologic do-gooder I would like to find out more about the Leaden Key's plans and the Legacy as well.
So yes, for me it worked well enough, but as I said, I think that's subjective. I don't need a very immediate and pressing danger/necessity to be motivated with playing along, esp. if something about the setting piques my interest.

Well, yes - for me it worked the same way, I think - overall, as in, curiosity will lead me places, it's not a "CBA with this" kind of a situation, it's rather that it doesn't really work as a plot device to actually get you motivated/invested.

One doesn't cancel out the other.

 

[felipepepe]

To me it seems that it's anyway only hinting at a possibility. You might go mad, but nobody says that it has to happen, let alone when.
The only precedence I've encountered (still act1) went mad because he got a particularly unlucky selection of previous lifes and it only happened after many years. Your own char can well be different.

By the end of the game your companions tell you that you barely sleep and looks worse everyday. Kana says that you are almost like Maelorn, with various souls mixing together.

Yet, nothing happens. As a player, you never see or feel those things. Someone playing with custom party members wouldn't even get these dialogs.

 

[hiver]

No, I mean having things written out with letters,

Telling can only be used as an additional element if there is already enough showing, to enhance what was shown.

Anyway as i said, Obsidian does these starting plot motivations badly in all their games. Its not something i actually expect to have any depth or big effects (such as very basic starting forms me and felipepepe mentioned) in actual gameplay.
Much like many other studios and their own superficial foibles.

Quite simply, narrative in vidya gaems has a superficial role.

And you wont be seeing anything better for a long while.

 

[Angthoron]

No, I mean having things written out with letters,

Telling can only be used as an additional element if there is already enough showing, to enhance what was shown.

Show, don't tell is a dogma for beginners. A competent writer can show, tell, or hide as much as they like, and get an excellent result out of it. But that aside, this is showing. Your character wakes up without a clear memory of spending the night staring at companions' souls. It's as much show/tell as everything else that can be done in this particular case - and if you think about it, it's pretty sinister. It's about loss of control, and it's not done in a cutscene, it's just hidden out of your view, just as it should be. You shouldn't know what your character doesn't know in cases like that.

Anyway as i said, Obsidian does these starting plot motivations badly in all their games. Its not something i actually expect to have any depth or big effects (such as very basic starting forms me and felipepepe mentioned) in actual gameplay.

Mostly true, I suppose. AP actually has a decent hook, and MotB's curse is also good enough a device. What my suggestion was about is simply how to create a feeling of a character actually deteriorating and losing control without adding timers or going an extra mile with developing more content. Just a set of wake-up dialogues, some follower commentary, that's all.

Quite simply, narrative in vidya gaems has a superficial role.

Depends. It's been gaining prominence. Prominence, not quality, mind. In fact, it gained such prominence that I often wish we'd go back to the "Read the story in the included .txt"

In any case, this is sliding into the "what could be" territory again.

 

[Lhynn]

My biggest gripe with the writing for poe is that its shit for a party based RPG.

 

[Ninjerk]

Something just occurred to me: Does anyone think the plot was hurt by the introduction of the villain so early in the game?

 

[Athelas]

By the end of the game your companions tell you that you barely sleep and looks worse everyday.

Makes perfect sense, you can't rest-spam in this game after all.

I'm still not very far into the game, but I do agree that the writing has issues. I suspect it comes from trying to marry high fantasy tropes with the more grounded storytelling Obsidian had in mind.

Come to think of it, didn't Sawyer create the setting? Considering he's also the lead designer and project director, maybe he simply had too many things on his plate and the setting - or rather the way the setting was presented in the game - ended up being neglected.

 

[felipepepe]

Something just occurred to me: Does anyone think the plot was hurt by the introduction of the villain so early in the game?

Why? Baldur's Gate 2 OPENS with Irenicus, one of the best villains of all-time. The real problem I see is that it doesn't give much depth to him, even with all that screen time. He's smart, powerful, evil and determined... and that's it.

You never see him Interacting with others, like Irenicus does. The way he downplays the Cowled Wizards, him taking over Spellhold, his past, his relationship with Bodhi, the dream-sequences... all that made him memorable (and the badass vboice acting). Although you meet Thaos early, he's mostly in secret, you only really get to know him in the last hour of the game.

 

[Athelas]

That doesn't exactly help your argument since Irenicus wasn't really that good a villain (apart from the orgasm-inducing voice acting).

 

[Lhynn]

Something just occurred to me: Does anyone think the plot was hurt by the introduction of the villain so early in the game?

Why? Baldur's Gate 2 OPENS with Irenicus, one of the best villains of all-time. The real problem I see is that it doesn't give much depth to him, even with all that screen time. He's smart, powerful, evil and determined... and that's it.

You never see him Interacting with others, like Irenicus does. The way he downplays the Cowled Wizards, him taking over Spellhold, his past, his relationship with Bodhi, the dream-sequences... all that made him memorable (and the badass vboice acting). Although you meet Thaos early, he's mostly in secret, you only really get to know him in the last hour of the game.

Why you do this to me? you ninja me with the same arguments just as am about to click post reply.

That doesn't exactly help your argument since Irenicus wasn't really that good a villain (apart from the orgasm-inducing voice acting).

He was a good villain i loved to hate.

 

[Athelas]

He was a good villain i loved to hate.

If he's really that good a villain, why are you describing him in platitudes?

 

[Ninjerk]

Something just occurred to me: Does anyone think the plot was hurt by the introduction of the villain so early in the game?

Why? Baldur's Gate 2 OPENS with Irenicus, one of the best villains of all-time. The real problem I see is that it doesn't give much depth to him, even with all that screen time. He's smart, powerful, evil and determined... and that's it.

You never see him Interacting with others, like Irenicus does. The way he downplays the Cowled Wizards, him taking over Spellhold, his past, his relationship with Bodhi, the dream-sequences... all that made him memorable (and the badass vboice acting). Although you meet Thaos early, he's mostly in secret, you only really get to know him in the last hour of the game.

Athelas already covered it but I can't help but

 

[LizardWizard]

I hope Ser Tim Cain is the lead designer to their next IP, or to PoE expansion. And they shouldn't had let Ziets go.
Apparently Eric Festenmaker isn't at the same league (and Sawyer is crap in that department but that was known from the start)

ftfy

 

[hiver]

No, I mean having things written out with letters,

Telling can only be used as an additional element if there is already enough showing, to enhance what was shown.

Show, don't tell is a dogma for beginners.

No, its a "dogma" for beginners who are not competent or capable and therefore produce shitty ideas and then complain about "dogmas" that besmirch their creative spirits.

A competent writer

Which you are not.

can show, tell, or hide as much as they like, and get an excellent result out of it.

Except that your example is just telling, and it sucks some serious hairy donkey balls.

But that aside, this is showing.

You are not showing anything then your character waking up from a dream cutscene.

Your character wakes up without a clear memory of spending the night staring at companions' souls.

The concept of "without a clear memory of spending the night" does not exist in the game in any way.
You may tell the player thats what happened but thats just another vacuous statement - telling something.

It's as much show/tell as everything else that can be done in this particular case

How the fuck is that "show/tell"? and how the fuck does that sentence have any meaning except the one you imagine it to have?

- and if you think about it, it's pretty sinister.

Because you told me my character is staring at my companions?

just...

It's about loss of control, and it's not done in a cutscene, it's just hidden out of your view, just as it should be.

A cutscene that is... hidden from my view?

No, no... its not a cutscene but... just something nobody ever sees?

thats... i...
i dont know what to say.

here, ill spend some more effort i dont have in order not to tell you how fucking stupid that is.

You shouldn't know what your character doesn't know in cases like that.

So how the fuck is something neither i or my character know... going to affect me?

Anyway as i said, Obsidian does these starting plot motivations badly in all their games. Its not something i actually expect to have any depth or big effects (such as very basic starting forms me and felipepepe mentioned) in actual gameplay.

Mostly true, I suppose. AP actually has a decent hook, and MotB's curse is also good enough a device. What my suggestion was about is simply how to create a feeling of a character actually deteriorating and losing control without adding timers or going an extra mile with developing more content. Just a set of wake-up dialogues, some follower commentary, that's all.

MotB ...yeah, probably the best example. I havent even seen AP lat alone played it so that goes out of consideration automatically. No, i wont take your word for it.

What your suggestion is - is pointless and quite ludicrous.
Nobody said anything about timers, btw.
But without creating content nothing can be done in game dev. If you dont want to create content then you have nothing to do in design of games and you should go and just write fiction somewhere, in some other medium.

Quite simply, narrative in vidya gaems has a superficial role.

Depends. It's been gaining prominence. Prominence, not quality, mind. In fact, it gained such prominence that I often wish we'd go back to the "Read the story in the included .txt"
In any case, this is sliding into the "what could be" territory again.[/QUOTE]
Prominence?

i was addressing the issue as a problem of narrative being decoupled from actual gameplay. Being a superficial cheap layer of telling - over and despite of what the game is showing.
Cheap excuses for actionz and shootan in various AAA mass market shit games is the simplest example of that.
Falling out of teh skies liek teh fucking falling STAAARRR in new Numenera game is another.

And yes, it gained "prominence" in that distorted way, which is completely wrong.
and you would want to "read the story in included txt"?

im afraid you are loosing me completely, even with the best of will and effort spent.

 

[Ninjerk]

I hope Ser Tim Cain is the lead designer to their next IP, or to PoE expansion. And they shouldn't had let Ziets go.
Apparently Eric Festenmaker isn't at the same league (and Sawyer is crap in that department but that was known from the start)

ftfy

This is the moneymaker right now, and I doubt Sir Tim Cain would be given the freedom he deserves on it.

 

[Lhynn]

He was a good villain i loved to hate.

If he's really that good a villain, why are you describing him in platitudes?

A tormented soul whose hunger for power pushed him to hurt those that he loved and respected? a man that went so far that his own people exiled him, his obsession so strong that even after losing everything he held dear to it didnt give up?
You can also describe him as a madman that wanted to be a god, that believed his every action justified by his goals.
An obsessed lover, a powerful wizard that knew some of the deepest darkest secrets of the multiverse? Stop being a retard, he had a pretty interesting personality, and this shit is off the top of my head, who knows how much ive missed about him and his sister, which was p. memorable on her own right.

You are simply wrong.

 

[Athelas]

He was a good villain i loved to hate.

If he's really that good a villain, why are you describing him in platitudes?

A tormented soul whose hunger for power pushed him to hurt those that he loved and respected? a man that went so far that his own people exiled him, his obsession so strong that even after losing everything he held dear to it didnt give up?

Please stop. You sound like you're trying to describe this guy:

Spoiler

You can also describe him as a madman that wanted to be a god, that believed his every action justified by his goals.
An obsessed lover, a powerful wizard that knew some of the deepest darkest secrets of the multiverse? Stop being a retard, he had a pretty interesting personality, and this shit is off the top of my head, who knows how much ive missed about him and his sister, which was p. memorable on her own right.

You are simply wrong.

He's a cliche power-hungry villain. His story is also surprisingly bare bones - one day, he suddenly decides he wants the power of a god (and is willing to murder for it) for...reasons.