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The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

tuluse

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Maybe these players simply enjoy the satisfaction of purging the dungeon. There's pleasure in completing tasks, in a job well done, both in real life and in games.
XP is not a goal per se, but it's a way to reach higher goals. A player can get just satisfaction from clearing a huge dungeon, but he'll need the XP to clear the next one.
It's used to gain new abilities which is the actual fun part, not the XP itself.

I'd actually like to see an RPG where you gain new abilities directly. Like you find teachers as you explore and they just teach you fireball or magic missile or whatever with no middle man resource.
 

Arkeus

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Uh, that means you leave characters who join you without that starting xp, meaning you'll have to find it elsewhere, so while you char was higher lvl, companions had to wait for opportunities to grow. I guess it has some value if your main is a fighter or mage maybe, more hp, new spells, but... it's like hoarding all xp into 1 char instead of distributing it.
Also if you kill guy who asks for identify you miss additional quest later and might aggro whole Candlekeep on yourself :M
Actually, companions sort of share your level- not for level 2, but if you are level 4 or so they are also level 4 when you meet them (so i got higher level Jaheira/Edwin from the get go).
 

Shadenuat

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Actually, companions sort of share your level- not for level 2, but if you are level 4 or so they are also level 4 when you meet them (so i got higher level Jaheira/Edwin from the get go).
Huh, weird. I remember some companions being higher level than you when they join (Ajantis, Tiax and Shar Teel I think at least), but I don't remember about scaling...
but then last time I played vanilla BG1 I was soloing so whatever.
 

DraQ

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They do not do it for shinnies and exp, they do it for a greater purpose, to further their ambitions.
So they don't masturbate via incrementation, but instead they masturbate via incrementation?
'k.

Players will exert themselves to get a greater reward because they want to realize those fantasies, the sooner the better. And combat is the riskiest but fastest way of doing just fucking that, therefore it makes sense that you reward those risks they willingly take with the means to gettint to where they want to be. More cautious players will level up slower, but they will more than likely make it alive to the end of the story.
I know this is hard to apply to cRPGs because saving, meta knowledge and other shit that make taking risks a trivial thing
Bingo.

but instead of trying to change the approach to something that completely misses the point (same xp no matter what you do as long as you advance the plot, which by extension makes levels meaningless, as they are only checkpoints.
You can gate the side content with character's level.
You can also gate whatever the fuck you want with loot, information, rep and world state.

Levels have never been particularly meaningful (in cRPGs).
At best they are mostly cosmetic storytelling device reflecting hero's growth or simulationist mechanics, at worst they are a design headache allowing outgrinding any challenge with dumbfuck perseverance.

wouldnt it be better to find a way for those risks to mean more?
AFAIK PoE won't force ironman and I don't expect it to have truly hardcore resource management or nasty, delayed potential consequences of combat, so this point is moot.

(and i dont want to hear "but you get a giants bladder, it will help you craft arrows of giant slaying!1!!!")
You could also craft a bag of holding out of giant's nutsack.

I just would prefer progression to be systemic rather than scripted
Then why don't go for an actual system that governs what you can learn by doing what, instead of a fugly hybrid that makes the occurrence of character growth systemic, but not the act of growth itself?

It makes little sense to award something completely abstract systemically for concrete activities. Either you settle for abstract rewards doled out in similarly abstract manner, or you relate concrete reward and activity systemically.

Anything else is half-baked.
Besides, player should be getting substantial wiggle room when it comes to situations in game, but not when it comes to underlying mechanics - would you tolerate it if player could get as creative with things like HP management?
The disparity between low level XP gain mechanics and completely abstract and free XP exploitation only creates unnecessary loopholes.

Now maybe I am ~possibly retarded~, but how's "experience for the completing a chapter" equals "experience for non-combat quest solutions"?
Because there is no mechanics allowing XP rewards to be based on how you solved the quest, all solutions are rewarded with XPs.


I'm all for latter, like I already have said. But the former, especially if that's automatic predetermined amount of exp — how's that a good idea? I was a Storyteller back in the day, and oWoD really encouraged giving players experience for non-combat activities, for outstanding role-paying and so on, and it was a good concept. Moreover, the number of points which players have gained was announced either at the end of a module, or at the end of a campaign (oWoD didn't have levels). But that wasn't a predetermined amount of points, their number depended on player's actions.
It's a good idea because anything else equals trying to influence player's decision and assessment of situation through artificial means. It might work with live DM who can react and assess whether players are playing the "right way", but in a computer game the GM has left the room before the player even entered, there is no dynamic interplay possible here. All you do with differentiated XP rewards (or any such rewards using universal, highly desirable resource) is providing player with overarching meta-mechanics to be gamed and turning potentially interesting dilemmas into a simple game of "gotta catch them all".

Leaving all possible XP rewards equal at least ensures that player will make their decisions based on actual in game situation that is likely to involve more factors than just the amount of pluses it gives.
 

DraQ

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Except they did not 'add' objective based XP, because that was already in (and called quest reward XP), they just removed combat XP, as the simplest solution to the infamous degenerate gameplay of solving the quest non-violently and then slaughtering everyone involved.

Bioware 'solved' this problem ages ago by not letting you attack anyone that is not hostile already. Obsidian cannot do the same, because they want to let you attack everyone, since it was one of the IE-games staples. So they are 'solving' the same problem by removing a different IE-games staple (XP for kills).
They are solving the problem by removing abstract, loophole prone metamechanics that created it rather than by barring certain integral aspects of world logic for no reason.

Sounds like the right solution, unlike what you have listed in the post before, which failed to address the issue.

Yeah, it's a lazy cop-out - the proper solution being well implemented use-based - but at least it does solve the problem in a simple and elegant manner.

It's also refreshingly non-delusional - more involved, systemic XP based systems are just futile attempts to put depth into something that's inherently one dimensional (in a literal sense - XPs are just a single scale).
 

AN4RCHID

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I just would prefer progression to be systemic rather than scripted
Then why don't go for an actual system that governs what you can learn by doing what, instead of a fugly hybrid that makes the occurrence of character growth systemic, but not the act of growth itself?

It makes little sense to award something completely abstract systemically for concrete activities. Either you settle for abstract rewards doled out in similarly abstract manner, or you relate concrete reward and activity systemically.

Anything else is half-baked.
Besides, player should be getting substantial wiggle room when it comes to situations in game, but not when it comes to underlying mechanics - would you tolerate it if player could get as creative with things like HP management?
The disparity between low level XP gain mechanics and completely abstract and free XP exploitation only creates unnecessary loopholes.
I like things to be systemic rather than scripted for reasons totally unrelated to simulationism/verisimilitude. If anything, it's a question of gamist (player driven reward structure) vs narrativist (rewards based on progression along the designated path) philosophies, albeit the difference in this case is pretty subtle.

Anyway, to answer your question, yeah, why not? I certainly would have preferred Josh to make the XP system more interesting instead of less interesting. I guess he was probably afraid of trying anything very different from the IE games because of backerlash.
 

MicoSelva

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use-based
Go back to Skyrim, bro.

Yes, DraQ is trying to drag an entirely different point into this discussion whenever it comes up. And no, that doesn't invalidate all his other points which are directly related to it.

DraQ states his opinions as facts, putting me in a defensive position by default, so I am not going to argue with him (because pointless).

Sounds like the right solution, unlike what you have listed in the post before, which failed to address the issue.

How have they failed to address it?

Yeah, it's a lazy cop-out - the proper solution being well implemented use-based - but at least it does solve the problem in a simple and elegant manner.

Simple, yes. Elegant, no.

As I do not want to argue any more (no only because I need to get up for work in a few hours), I will just quote myself from earlier.

To make matters perfectly clear - I am absolutely fine with getting only quest progress XP
 

Shadenuat

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Same people who killed NPCs they helped for XP will continue to kill them just for extra loot. Same goes for regular mobs. They have MCA there, now who remembers what did he do with his debutante diplomatic girl as he entered the game? Slaughtered everything and picked up all the junk.

What do you do, strip the ogre you helped of loot after you finish his quest? Might as well go all Bethesda and tag the poor creature as plot-character making him unkillable.

Obsi were braggin about their rep system, now if after you kill NPC you helped you get "Betrayer" rep and noone believes you anymore and gives you quests, now that would get 'em.
 

Grunker

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DraQ states his opinions as facts

I don't think there's anything wrong with stating facts as facts.

It is undeniable that PoE wants to encourage players to tackle obstacles however they want with whatever tools they have at their disposal. It is also undeniable that kill-XP provides incentive to take violent routes over all others (even more than is already encouraged via loot etc). It is also undeniable that giving XP for objectives only fixes this problem.

It is arguable whether objective-based XP creates problems of its own, but in this thread I haven't read a single post arguing credibly that it has. I have been playing P&P for 15 years and only in the rarest games did we use KillXP. I've also played RPGs with objective-based XP that worked without any of the issues KillXP games had.

The best argument I've seen in favor of KillXP is someone saying "I bet I can just run past and ignore those beetles", but that's not really an argument against Quest XP. It's an argument against designing encounters so shittily that they can be bypassed with no gameplay.

Shadenaut said:
Might as well go all Bethesda and tag the poor creature as plot-character making him unkillable.

How the fuck is denying the option to receive 2x XP for just killing everything after diplomatic solutions anything even remotely close to unkillable NPCs?

This hyperbole is the reason I'm having so much trouble taking the KillXP crowd serious. If you could try to make one coherent, credible argument in favor of your case instead of stating all these over-the-top non sequiturs.
 
Last edited:

Rake

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Their only arguement that has *some* merit is that with this someone cannot derp around in the wilderness doing nothing importand exploring, while also becoming stronger and leaving the rest of the gameworld behind in levels. While i think IE games weren't that kind of games as a rule, BG1 allowed this kind of gaming. So if someone liked BG1 because of that reason, and he hoped for PoE to recreate it, then i can see his reason to complain.
 
Self-Ejected

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Shadenaut said:
Might as well go all Bethesda and tag the poor creature as plot-character making him unkillable.

How the fuck is denying the option to receive 2x XP for just killing everything after diplomatic solutions anything even remotely close to unkillable NPCs?

This hyperbole is the reason I'm having so much trouble taking the KillXP crowd serious. If you could try to make one coherent, credible argument in favor of your case instead of stating all these over-the-top non sequiturs.

Here are two:

P1: RPG players enjoy developing their characters.
P2: Character development in PoE is centered around XP gains.
P3: Most of PoE's gameplay consists of combat.
C: Removing XP gains from PoE's combat reduces players' enjoyment of PoE.

P1: Having multiple gameplay options in an RPG is good.
P2: Being able to kill things for XP is a gameplay option.
C: Being able to kill things for XP is good.
 

Mangoose

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Shadenaut said:
Might as well go all Bethesda and tag the poor creature as plot-character making him unkillable.

How the fuck is denying the option to receive 2x XP for just killing everything after diplomatic solutions anything even remotely close to unkillable NPCs?

This hyperbole is the reason I'm having so much trouble taking the KillXP crowd serious. If you could try to make one coherent, credible argument in favor of your case instead of stating all these over-the-top non sequiturs.

Here are two:

P1: RPG players enjoy developing their characters.
P2: Character development in PoE is centered around XP gains.
P3: Most of PoE's gameplay consists of combat.
C: Removing XP gains from PoE's combat reduces players' enjoyment of PoE.

P1: Having multiple gameplay options in an RPG is good.
P2: Being able to kill things for XP is a gameplay option.
C: Being able to kill things for XP is good.
What.

Gamers enjoy good combat. XP should not be the priority of enjoyment of gameplay.
 

Grunker

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Shadenaut said:
Might as well go all Bethesda and tag the poor creature as plot-character making him unkillable.

How the fuck is denying the option to receive 2x XP for just killing everything after diplomatic solutions anything even remotely close to unkillable NPCs?

This hyperbole is the reason I'm having so much trouble taking the KillXP crowd serious. If you could try to make one coherent, credible argument in favor of your case instead of stating all these over-the-top non sequiturs.

Here are two:

P1: RPG players enjoy developing their characters.
P2: Character development in PoE is centered around XP gains.
P3: Most of PoE's gameplay consists of combat.
C: Removing XP gains from PoE's combat reduces players' enjoyment of PoE.

P1: Having multiple gameplay options in an RPG is good.
P2: Being able to kill things for XP is a gameplay option.
C: Being able to kill things for XP is good.

I realize you're probably just trolling as per usual, but just in case, none of your conclusions follow from the statements.

Ad. 1: There is still character development in PoE, and if you want to kill stuff to develop your character, just solve objectives by killing everything.

Ad. 2.: Being able to kill things is a gameplay option. Being able to kill things for XP is not, unless you stretch the definition. Killing things = gameplay option, getting XP for it = reward structure. But let's stretch the definition into absurdity: even in this definition, PoE meets the requirement since, as per 1, you can solve objectives by murder and obtain XP in this manner, effectively gaining XP from killing shit.

The only thing you're barred from is character development via the complete and utter destruction of everything in the gameworld. However, you are still able to do this in PoE as far as I understand, the only that's changed is that you are no longer being rewarded with character development for something that each and every other gameplay option does not have the possibility to do. In other words, violence does not end up being clearly surperior to all other options.

If we go back to your statements, maybe what you want to say is "I want violence to be the clearly surperior option." That's an argument I cannot deny - if you want that, PoE does not deliver. However I sincerely doubt that there's even a single person in this thread who really wants that. If they do, I'm fine saying: "Fair enough, PoE isn't your game, and the IE games were "better" at this." Well, 1 was, at least. In BG2, XP-inflation means that the little XP you gain from mass murder means less than it seems.

What.

Gamers enjoy good combat. XP should not be the priority of enjoyment of gameplay.

Name one RPG with enjoyable combat and no character development.

There is character development in PoE, and it is tied to the combat if you want it to be.
 

Shadenuat

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The argument was there made by some Blonde-whatever chick since the nokill xp came up at Obsi forums - systemic xp give outs allow player to create his own objectives and go through the game how he wants, as he can ignore plot, or parts of it he doesn't like, or show a middle finger to anything designer prepared, and do things his way; and progress through game using the system itself. From a berserker who tries to get the highest kill count to thief who, instead of taking a quest to kill the ogre, leveled up by picking and stealing all the shit in town and then moving away with pockets full of stuff, everything becomes possible.
For example, in Fallout 2 I sometimes loved to just roam around wasteland with caravans, meeting random creatures I never seen and entering hilarious random fights with 3-4 sides, that gave me a lot of XP. I've spent hours chunking muties with plasma rifle and just grinding, with no quests involved - and had a lot of fun.

How the fuck is denying the option to receive 2x XP for just killing everything after diplomatic solutions anything even remotely close to unkillable NPCs?
While unkillable NPCs are more often used to save the time on writing plot or even not allow modern gamer miss important content, both of these design tricks are also used to prevent a particular player behaviour. It's really just trying to fight munchkinism with the system, while what you really want to do is to promote a better way of playing by adding right consequences to player actions.
If your players showed your module with beetles and maze and ogre at the end a finger and decided to combat some powerful quest NPC and spent time on preparation and actually killed him, will you not give them XP for creativity and strip them of all the loot, or will you change the plot of the game in a new direction instead?

This hyperbole is the reason I'm having so much trouble taking the KillXP crowd serious.
How about you don't put people inside some "crowds", and they will not put you into "I am professional DM for 15 years > u r all fucking morons" crowd.
 
Self-Ejected

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What.

Gamers enjoy good combat. XP should not be the priority of enjoyment of gameplay.

Name one RPG with enjoyable combat and no character development.
Who said no character development? I said priority.

We can argue all day about which RPGs "prioritize" character development and which do not, but an RPG with a combat system that offers no character development whatsoever would offer a clear example that everybody could benefit from.
 

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