The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

Bros, so if I do not get any XP for mobs thrashing, then I can run from/skip any filler combat/random encounters without being afraid to be underleveled at some point? I like this decision from this point of view.

BUT if I'm always forced into unskippable filler combat and I won't get any rewards out of it, I do not like this much.

Yes, sure, you can try to avoid combat (by sneaking, for example). Other than not getting some alchemy resources you won't be 'punished' in any way.

 

[Raggg]

This idea that shitty gameplay is OK as long as your numbers go up is really sad.

 

[felipepepe]

Since Josh is so into role-playing and giving bonuses to players if they roleplay their paladin's order right, just make that making a deal and they going back & killing the person gives a negative bonus of some kind, like a "betrayer" status or whatever.

Now you turned betraying NPCs from a hole in the mechanics to a feature.

 

[Infinitron]

MFW when roshan says de-incentivizing trash mob genocide is moving away from the design philosophy of Fallout

 

[MicoSelva]

Degenerate gameplay arguing aside, removing XP for kills invalidates at least one playstyle, which is a big no-no in JES book as far as I can tell.

In BG1 I could ignore quest givers, just head into wilderness and fight animals/monsters/bandits to improve my party's battle prowess, which also made sense, because if someone went on to kill bears for a year, he/she would die improve his/her combat skills.

In before dirty simulationist.

BG2 did not have such wilderness areas, but you could go to the graveyard and fight the undead for a similar result. Also, sewers, etc.

---

To make matters perfectly clear - I am absolutely fine with getting only quest progress XP, just like I was fine with it in Deus Ex, VTMB or Mass Effect 2. I do not agree with it design-wise, but it does not ruin the game for me or anything like that. I am actually looking forward to be able to play through the game killing as little things on the way as possible, because usually that is exactly what I do, if the game supports it. I will leave that ogre alive and feel good inside because of that.

But I do think that outright removing XP for kills for the cheapest way to achieve certain goals, and by far not the best.

 

[felipepepe]

^A fair point, you can no longer progress by simply derping randomly through the world, and that's lame.

 

[Athelas]

Since Josh is so into role-playing and giving bonuses to players if they roleplay their paladin's order right, just make that making a deal and they going back & killing the person gives a negative bonus of some kind, like a "betrayer" status or whatever.

Now you turned betraying NPCs from a hole in the mechanics to a feature.

Uhm, Paladin isn't the only class in this game - there are 10 others in fact. Also, Paladins aren't necessarily Lawful in this setting. And the game already has a reputation system, 'deceitful' is a personal reputaton you can build up I believe.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't recall ever actually having to derp randomly in the IE games, though. There was more than enough content to hit your level cap from combing each area just once.

These were games with fast travel, so it's not like you were hacking your way through trash mobs all the way up and down the Sword Coast all the time.

That said, I suppose it is a playstyle of sorts. Tough luck?

 

[roshan]

MFW when roshan says de-incentivizing trash mob genocide is moving away from the design philosophy of Fallout

Oh so are you now claiming that Fallout didn't give XP for killing trash mobs? I call complete bullshit. Practically everything in Fallout gave XP. For fuck's sake you could even get a shitload of XP by just pumping your steal skill and keep stealing and planting the same item over and over in someones inventory. Fallout was the epitome of degenerate gameplay mechanics BUT players didn't exploit those mechanics unnecessarily because they were busy doing what they found to be fun. Not picking between two or three options that JE Sawyer came up with in order to unlock a goddamn achievement (AKA "objective based XP").

 

[felipepepe]

Uhm, Paladin isn't the only class in this game - there are 10 others in fact. Also, Paladins aren't necessarily Lawful in this setting. And the game already has a reputation system, 'deceitful' is a personal reputaton you can build up I believe.

Sure, but it could be best explored. Fallout had no Paladins or classes, but try robbing a grave or killing kids and you'll be an asshole for everyone. Make that a "betrayer" character has a 20% increase in the CR of speech checks, or -20 reaction from NPCs, whatever.

 

[Maculo]

Does PoE have random encounters during map travel? If so, a select number of encounters could provide XP, which would give something for that playstyle.

 

[MicoSelva]

I don't recall ever actually having to derp randomly in the IE games, though. There was more than enough content to hit your level cap from combing each area just once.

I am asuuming you are dliberately missing the point, but I will respond anyway, with underscores for easier reading.

No, of course you did not have to do that. But you could. In PE you will not be able to.

 

[Sensuki]

The speed runs of Baldur's Gate 1 highlight how very little you actually have to do in the game

- Talk to Gorion and exit Candlekeep
- Talk to Berun Ghastkill about the Nashkell Mines
- Recover the scrolls from Mulahey's chest in the Nashkell Mines
- Find the Bandit camp
- Recover the scrolls in Tazok's Tent in the Bandit camp
- Kill Davaeorn
- Do the Flaming Fist Quests
- Do the Revisit Candlekeep stuff (which is really just get to level 5 and then go up or down a floor, and then escape the Catacombs)
- go to the Undercellars and kill Slythe for his invitation (edited in, thanks Mico)
- Go to the BG Palace and save either Lia Jannath or Belt
- Follow Sarevok and kill him

that is literally every required thing you have to do.

 

[Spockrock]

In BG1 I could ignore quest givers, just head into wilderness and fight animals/monsters/bandits to improve my party's battle prowess, which also made sense, because if someone went on to kill bears for a year, he/she would die improve his/her combat skills.

no.

it would improve his/hers bear killing skills. I don't think they would apply in a fight against a trained swordsman

 

[MicoSelva]

The speed runs of Baldur's Gate 1 highlight how very little you actually have to do in the game

- Talk to Gorion and exit Candlekeep
- Recover the scrolls from Mulahey's chest in the Nashkell Mines
- Find the Bandit camp
- Recover the scrolls in Tazok's Tent in the Bandit camp
- Kill Davaeorn
- Do the Flaming Fist Quests
- Do the Revisit Candlekeep stuff (which is really just get to level 5 and then go up or down a floor, and then escape the Catacombs)
- Go to the BG Palace and save either Lia Jannath or Belt
- Follow Sarevok and kill him

that is literally every required thing you have to do.

One entry is missing. You have to talk to Nashkel's mayor after Gorion's death, or you will not be able to enter the mines.

EDIT 1:

Make that two. Bandit camp can only be found after talking to Tranzig in Beregost. <- I was wrong here
You also need to obtain an invitiation from Sarevok's assassins before entering the palace.

EDIT 2:

You do not to have to do any Flaming Fist quests, you can go straight to Iron Throne tower.

Shitty list

 

[Infinitron]

Does PoE have random encounters during map travel? If so, a select number of encounters could provide XP, which would give something for that playstyle.

Random encounters during travel seem unlikely because everybody savescums through those. Heck even Icewind Dale didn't have them.

It'd be cool to have the occasional mandatory scripted ambush, though. I imagine you'd get an XP reward for surviving it.

 

[Sensuki]

One entry is missing. You have to talk to Nashkel's mayor after Gorion's death, or you will not be able to enter the mines.

Technically, yes - but you can use a charm spell to move one of the Flaming Fist guards OR enter from the back entrance (the wilderness map down the bottom right of the world map)

[
Make that two. Bandit camp can only be found after talking to Tranzig in Beregost.

Incorrect, there's four ways to enter the bandit camp. You can even kill Tazok doing it.

You also need to obtain an invitiation from Sarevok's assassins before entering the palace.

Ah, forgot about that one - you do need to get the Invitation from the Undercellars.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

In BG1 I could ignore quest givers, just head into wilderness and fight animals/monsters/bandits to improve my party's battle prowess, which also made sense, because if someone went on to kill bears for a year, he/she would die improve his/her combat skills.

It depends on the way the system is implemented in PoE. If you can discover quests in different ways (for example, if after killing ogre you get an entry in your journal "find smb who might be interested on ogre's death) then it's OK.
And you still get XP for exploring.

 

[MicoSelva]

One entry is missing. You have to talk to Nashkel's mayor after Gorion's death, or you will not be able to enter the mines.

Technically, yes - but you can use a charm spell to move one of the Flaming Fist guards OR enter from the back entrance (the wilderness map down the bottom right of the world map)

Maybe the Charm spell solution works (neat idea), but the side-entrance is one-way (you can only exit the mines, but not enter them).

 

[Maculo]

You are right about the save scumming Infinitron, I did not think about that. Sawyer would probably avoid that.

Obsidian could do a variety of things with those scripted choice encounters, such as the one where you can throw that rogue a weapon. Although that may just add extra XP instead of rewarding a bear-killer playstyle. I think I see what the others were talking about now. There does not seem to be a good solution to it.

 

[MicoSelva]

One entry is missing. You have to talk to Nashkel's mayor after Gorion's death, or you will not be able to enter the mines.

Technically, yes - but you can use a charm spell to move one of the Flaming Fist guards.

Actually, it does not work. Unless you talk to the mayor, the mine entrance hotspot is non-clickable. I tried that in my solo LP.

Spoiler

 

[Sensuki]

Maybe the Charm spell solution works (neat idea), but the side-entrance is one-way (you can only exit the mines, but not enter them).

Absolutely positive I've travelled back inside before after exiting it, but I have not actually tried to enter the mines that way.

Actually, it does not work. Unless you talk to the mayor, the mine entrance hotspot is non-clickable.

Fair enough, will edit

 

[AN4RCHID]

Since Josh is so into role-playing and giving bonuses to players if they roleplay their paladin's order right, just make that making a deal and they going back & killing the person gives a negative bonus of some kind, like a "betrayer" status or whatever.

Now you turned betraying NPCs from a hole in the mechanics to a feature.

Uhm, Paladin isn't the only class in this game - there are 10 others in fact. Also, Paladins aren't necessarily Lawful in this setting. And the game already has a reputation system, 'deceitful' is a personal reputaton you can build up I believe.

Just don't award XP for killing friendly NPCs. Problem solved. The game has faction mechanics so there is presumably already a disincentive for making enemies with quest-giver NPCs.

 

[Shadenuat]

I posted this earlier ITT about dump stats, but it applies equally here:

Sure, this is basically the "add MOAR content" method of fixing dump stats. CHA not worthwhile? Don't change CHA, just add stuff to the game that makes it worthwhile! Same for WIS!

It sounds good, but the downside of it is that, if you're the systems designer, what you're doing now is basically telling your writers and area designers and quest designers that it's their job to fix the system's flaws. "Uh, Avellone, I need more CHA checks here! Add more CHA checks! It's not useful enough yet!" It's a bit artistically bankrupt.

That is the nature of roleplay and social play. Anything that can't be measured by ones and zeroes, like player's ability to change plot or interaction with characters, relies on DM, and in CRPG, content is DM. Even things that are at border between combat and roleplay, like Stealth, rely on content. Or will you be satisfied with linear corridor with Thief stealth-system, as long as it counts sound/weight/has shiny stealth-gem? Systems don't work in a fucking vacuum. They are used to simulate or represent something in the game. And sometimes that something may be different than just flat bonuses.
Say CHA adds #of companions, but then it's useless for solo combat char, what will you do - make it add even moar dmg to solo char?
How far can one go sacrificing everything to the altar of combat until whatever particular parts of system used to represent lose their meaning whatsoever?

Roshan is right, meaningful consequences for actions are a more natural way to make players roleplay and concider their actions. Players murder NPCs either if they are chronical powergamers, or, generally, when they already finished the game and want to test limits of the game. That is why when playing Obsi games in particular I, for example, am always conciderate in my actions in the world and try not to murder everything on sight - I know that there is possibility of losing additional content that way. That and me not being dumbfuck dorito douchebag (CHARISMA LOL USELESS DUMP THAT) and actually caring for characters, their fates and plot and shit.

 

[Infinitron]

That is the nature of roleplay and social play. Anything that can't be measured by ones and zeroes, like player's ability to change plot or interaction with characters, relies on DM, and in CRPG, content is DM. Even things that are at border between combat and roleplay, like Stealth, rely on content. Or will you be satisfied with linear corridor with Thief stealth-system, as long as it counts sound/weight/has shiny stealth-gem?
Say CHA adds #of companions, but then it's useless for solo combat char, what will you do - make it add even moar dmg to solo char?
How far can one go sacrificing everything to the altar of combat until whatever particular parts of system used to represent lose their meaning whatsoever?

Roshan is right, meaningful consequences for actions are a more natural way to make players roleplay and concider their actions. Players murder NPCs either if they are chronical powergamers, or, generally, when they already finished the game and want to test limits of the game. That is why when playing Obsi games in particular I, for example, am always conciderate in my actions in the world and try not to murder everything on sight - I know that there is possibility of losing additional content that way. That and me not being dumbfuck dorito douchebag (CHARISMA LOL USELESS DUMP THAT) and actually caring for characters, their fates and plot and shit.

Roshan is never right. Easily the most willfully ignorant person ITT, and that's quite an achievement.

No systemic XP gain for killing things isn't intended only to stop the killing of quest givers. That's just the most extreme example of its benefits.

Leaving a surviving trash mob alive in the corner of a cave that you accidentally missed? That's okay now, you aren't losing experience. Roleplaying a sneaky party? That's okay now, you aren't losing experience. These are things that a "real life" adventuring party would do, but characters in videogames never do because LEAVE NO MONSTER UNKILLED MUST GRIND ALL XP.

The funny thing about simulationists is that they don't even realize when people are helping them.

Anyway, enough of this. The game is going to come out soon and everybody will realize how silly they were.