The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[Duraframe300]

How the fuck is denying the option to receive 2x XP for just killing everything after diplomatic solutions anything even remotely close to unkillable NPCs?

While unkillable NPCs are more often used to save the time on writing plot or even not allow modern gamer miss important content, both of these design tricks are also used to prevent a particular player behaviour. It's really just trying to fight munchkinism with the system, while what you really want to do is to promote a better way of playing by adding right consequences to player actions.
If your players showed your module with beetles and maze and ogre at the end a finger and decided to combat some powerful quest NPC and spent time on preparation and actually killed him, will you not give them XP for creativity and strip them of all the loot, or will you change the plot of the game in a new direction instead?

What?

This reminds me of the people that said you couldn't go directly north in F:NV.

 

[Maculo]

What.

Gamers enjoy good combat. XP should not be the priority of enjoyment of gameplay.

Name one RPG with enjoyable combat and no character development.

Who said no character development? I said priority.

We can argue all day about which RPGs "prioritize" character development and which do not, but an RPG with a combat system that offers no character development whatsoever would offer a clear example that everybody could benefit from.

I do not want to put words in your mouth, but is it you position that PoE does not offer character development via combat? Or, are you answering a different question? If the former, I am not certain that I agree just yet. Killing the ogre is a means to obtain XP. Do you view that as different from combat XP?

Moreover, the creatures do drop crafting and enchantment components (Ogre blood), which I would argue does aid in the development of the character, although not direct as XP.

 

[Shadenuat]

This reminds me of the people that said you couldn't go directly north in F:NV.

You totally can go north, why?

Welp, nvm, I wanna go stealth through beetles.

 

[cvv]

What.

Gamers enjoy good combat. XP should not be the priority of enjoyment of gameplay.

Name one RPG with enjoyable combat and no character development.

Stalker.

 

[Bubbles]

You totally can go north, why?

He means directly north from Goodsprings, because there are Deathclaws there. Stating your case clearly and plainly is an art lost to the average Codexer.

 

[Rake]

The argument was there made by some Blonde-whatever chick since the nokill xp came up at Obsi forums - systemic xp give outs allow player to create his own objectives and go through the game how he wants, as he can ignore plot, or parts of it he doesn't like, or show a middle finger to anything designer prepared, and do things his way; and progress through game using the system itself. From a berserker who tries to get the highest kill count to thief who, instead of taking a quest to kill the ogre, leveled up by picking and stealing all the shit in town and then moving away with pockets full of stuff, everything becomes possible.

You play the wrong type of game bro. If someone wants what you discribe, PoE shouldn't be his first choice.

 

[Bubbles]

The argument was there made by some Blonde-whatever chick since the nokill xp came up at Obsi forums - systemic xp give outs allow player to create his own objectives and go through the game how he wants, as he can ignore plot, or parts of it he doesn't like, or show a middle finger to anything designer prepared, and do things his way; and progress through game using the system itself. From a berserker who tries to get the highest kill count to thief who, instead of taking a quest to kill the ogre, leveled up by picking and stealing all the shit in town and then moving away with pockets full of stuff, everything becomes possible.

You play the wrong type of game bro. If someone wants what you discribe, PoE shouldn't be his first choice.

Mods will fix it.

Stalker.

My point exactly. Josh could learn a lot about good RPG design from STALKER.

 

[Mangoose]

What.

Gamers enjoy good combat. XP should not be the priority of enjoyment of gameplay.

Name one RPG with enjoyable combat and no character development.

Who said no character development? I said priority.

We can argue all day about which RPGs "prioritize" character development and which do not, but an RPG with a combat system that offers no character development whatsoever would offer a clear example that everybody could benefit from.

Prioritizing combat doesn't mean getting rid of character development.

 

[Shadenuat]

You totally can go north, why?

He means directly north from Goodsprings, because there are Deathclaws there. Stating your case clearly and plainly is an art lost to the average Codexer.

I know bro, that was the first thing I tried in game.
Took me some dead quest NPCs to pump stealth high enough to get through that route

You play the wrong type of game bro. If someone wants what you discribe, PoE shouldn't be his first choice.

We shall see, they did promise some reactivity and reputation and stuff, they probably couldn't be satisfied by just copying the formula. While if they do just copy the formula, it is puzzling why in IE game aka VaultDweller-ARPG you can't just git out of town and kick a few ogres just for some sweet XP.
But really, what the fuck ever. It's not a deal breaker for me, I am more like providing counter points for the sake of dealing with boredom while waiting for gaem.

 

[Grunker]

The argument was there made by some Blonde-whatever chick since the nokill xp came up at Obsi forums - systemic xp give outs allow player to create his own objectives and go through the game how he wants, as he can ignore plot, or parts of it he doesn't like, or show a middle finger to anything designer prepared, and do things his way; and progress through game using the system itself. From a berserker who tries to get the highest kill count to thief who, instead of taking a quest to kill the ogre, leveled up by picking and stealing all the shit in town and then moving away with pockets full of stuff, everything becomes possible.
For example, in Fallout 2 I sometimes loved to just roam around wasteland with caravans, meeting random creatures I never seen and entering hilarious random fights with 3-4 sides, that gave me a lot of XP. I've spent hours chunking muties with plasma rifle and just grinding, with no quests involved - and had a lot of fun.

Firstly, your thief example makes no sense. How does kill XP provide XP for the thief?

Secondly, the "just roam in the sandbox ignoring everything" is true, but here are my counter-arguments:

1) This was never possible in the IE-games. Your point is moot insofar as removing kill XP from the IE games (which is what PoE wants to be like) doesn't remove your ability to do this in them, since you couldn't in the first place.

2) I am quite satisfied that the developers of PoE opt to fix a major issue plaguing core gameplay-styles over catering to a small subset of players who are interested in playing with the game rather than playing the game. The developer doesn't go out of his way to support people who want to speedrun it either. Those things arise organically and aren't the focus of development.

Also, I'd argue that that playstyle is very poorly supported in Fallout as well. Thinking back of my many times playing Fallout, the random encounters were extremely few and far between in terms of content-ones, and killing radscorpions 700 times might be enjoyable for you, but I'm not sure I'm seeing the problem with wanting to create something a bit more engaging than that...

While unkillable NPCs are more often used to save the time on writing plot or even not allow modern gamer miss important content, both of these design tricks are also used to prevent a particular player behaviour. It's really just trying to fight munchkinism with the system, while what you really want to do is to promote a better way of playing by adding right consequences to player actions.
If your players showed your module with beetles and maze and ogre at the end a finger and decided to combat some powerful quest NPC and spent time on preparation and actually killed him, will you not give them XP for creativity and strip them of all the loot, or will you change the plot of the game in a new direction instead?

Obvious fallacy. Pillars of Eternity already rewards the players for solving the problem, just as I would in your example. There is nothing "preventing" you from killing NPCs. All they did is take away the incentive to do it. That's actually the reverse of preventing - i.e. interfering - with your options. It is removing developer influence over your decision altogether. Before, killing NPCs was the wise thing to do. Now, it is a completely neutral action, left to the player.

By the way, my players generally don't decide they want to play another campaign in the middle of a current campaign, since they're adults and we talk about this stuff and make sure we have fun together, but I realize it is an issue around some tables. However it is clearly NOT an issue in video games where any chapterized semi-non-linear game like PoE must have content-borders, unlike a theoretical world like you have in P&P.

Regardless, your point is moot qua my first sentence.

How about you don't put people inside some "crowds"

I was referring to all arguments in this thread in favor of KillXP, because I have read them all. I could have bundled up those arguments with another word than 'crowd', but I'm sure you would get offended by that as well.

Also, you can take the referal to my roleplaying experience as arrogance if you want, or you could take it as it was meant: to state an example of the fact that the lack of killxp is unproblematic in a variety of games.

What we're left with is two "decent" arguments for kill XP:

1) "I want combat to be surperior to all other gameplay elements" <--- Fair enough. PoE isn't for you. My guess is you are part of a very small minority, but you are correct that in PoE, combat will rank alongside other tools at the player's disposal. (disclaimer: "you" is not a referral to Shadenuat but to the hypothetical example-person that Bubbles discussed, see above)

2) "I want to ignore game content and instead roam around randomly interacting with the game world" <--- Fair enough. This is your garden variety "I wish Pillars of Eternity was another game" argument. I can't argue against it, of course, but then neither can I argue against "I wish Pillars of Eternity was made from a first person perspective." It just isn't that kind of game, and adding KillXP wouldn't make it one.

I am more like providing counter points for the sake of dealing with boredom while waiting for gaem.

Isn't that the only reason any of us are here

 

[RK47]

I want combat to be surperior to all other gameplay elements" <--- Fair enough. PoE isn't for you

k. bye

 

[evdk]

 

[Spockrock]

Stalker.

My point exactly. Josh could learn a lot about good RPG design from STALKER.

STALKER is one of his favorite games. so he did learn a lot from it (you can clearly see it in New Vegas, especially in his mod for it)

as for combat, STALKER had one of the worst FPS combat systems ever. it reminded me a lot of Battlefield 2 when you played it against bots. STALKER human enemies are the same - stupid, cheating and predictable. same goes for weapons and how they're implemented.

 

[Grunker]

STALKER had one of the worst FPS combat systems ever.

Yeah. Stalker is a weird game. It's almost great in spite of itself.

 

[Infinitron]

In a shocking twister, the XP for combat derail turns out to have been initiated by Roguey Volourn!

 

[SuicideBunny]

splitting megathreads is almost as annoying as megathreads themselves, y'know.

 

[tuluse]

STALKER had one of the worst FPS combat systems ever.

Yeah. Stalker is a weird game. It's almost great in spite of itself.

You can't really say this on a site that has Deus Ex and VtMB in it's top list though.

 

[Grunker]

Reasons why I like the Codex:

1. I don't have to be afraid that my interesting off-shoot discussion gets nixed for being "off-topic"

...oh wait

 

[Grunker]

STALKER had one of the worst FPS combat systems ever.

Yeah. Stalker is a weird game. It's almost great in spite of itself.

You can't really say this on a site that has Deus Ex and VtMB in it's top list though.

Honestly I think both of those games had less problems than Stalker both in terms of quality and quantity. But I see your point.

Though Arcanum would have been a better example.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

In a shocking twister, the XP for combat derail turns out to have been initiated by Roguey

Actually this time I think it started before, Roguey was replying to Volourn

 

[tuluse]

What the hell, 11 pages out of 1000 really hurt that thread guys

 

[Jaesun]

The XP discussion is actually a good topic. Someone start a thread.

 

[Infinitron]

The XP discussion is actually a good topic. Someone start a thread.

That's this thread now.

What the hell, 11 pages out of 1000 really hurt that thread guys

That thread has been...retired.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Gamers enjoy good combat. XP should not be the priority of enjoyment of gameplay.

Gamers also enjoy well designed quests but you'll still get XP for those (heck they're your only source of XP/character growth) to sweeten the experience. Regarding the combat system, even if I enjoy it if there is no shortage of fights that yield actual rewards (XP or loot) why wouldn't I try to avoid the ones that don't (especially if they're similar in challenge and drain my resources)?

Of course, a lot of this will depend on the loot system, if "humiliating beetles" drop useful cratfing/alchemy/sellable ingredients (to "justify" their challenge level being equal or higher to the ogre boss fight) then there's no problem.

 

[SuicideBunny]

The XP discussion is actually a good topic. Someone start a thread.

go die horribly at the pretarsi of some beetles.