The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[meanwhileInPoland]

Have you ever met a boxer that could beat an experienced diplomat at diplomacy?

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Why is the ogre worthy of xp but not the beetles?

You're not getting XP for killing the ogres. You're getting XP for solving the ogre problem. Beetles hanging out in the wilderness is not a problem.

But.... but, they are vicious and eat game designers! That's not a problem?!

 

[DraQ]

Have you ever met a boxer that could beat an experienced diplomat at diplomacy?

Fuck boxers.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Imagine an RPG where, instead of experience points, you just gain a level every time you finish a chapter. That would essentially be a cruder version of this, one that doesn't allow you to gain more levels via sidequests. But the idea is the same - experience as scripted progression, not as "mineable systemic resource".

Wizardry 4 did just that. It's an interesting idea to explore.

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

Neverwinter Nights had this one small module (Witch's Wake?) that had no kill xp. It certainly enhanced my larping experience when coming to a forest on the way to my destination, the game would encourage me to think of it as an obstacle to be navigated through as quickly as possible and not as yet another extermination job for the pest control unit I was working for. These news increased my interest towards PoE quite a bit. Next challenge for Obsidian could be very low player power curve. (I assume PoE follows the typical formula of from puny weaklings to unstoppable gods, haven't followed this that closely.)

IIRC Witch's Wake's no kill xp had funny additional touch provided by NWN's engine limitations: it would always show you how much xp you got from kills.

Wolf dies. The party gains 0 xp.

 

[Infinitron]

Neverwinter Nights had this one small module (Witch's Wake?) that had no kill xp. It certainly enhanced my larping experience when coming to a forest on the way to my destination, the game would encourage me to think of it as an obstacle to be navigated through as quickly as possible and not as yet another extermination job for the pest control unit I was working for. These news increased my interest towards PoE quite a bit. Next challenge for Obsidian could be very low player power curve. (I assume PoE follows the typical formula of from puny weaklings to unstoppable gods, haven't followed this that closely.)

IIRC Witch's Wake's no kill xp had funny additional touch provided by NWN's engine limitations: it would always show you how much xp you got from kills.

Wolf dies. The party gains 0 xp.

Josh actually specifically mentioned Witch's Wake when he introduced PoE's no-xp-for-kills design philosophy for the first time back in 2012. That's quite a legacy for something so relatively obscure.

 

[hoverdog]

I remember playing the demo or the first part of Witch's Wake - it was included in the box potato version of NWN. It was awfully short, but still miles better than the OC. It was a premium module, right? Is it still available anywhere?

 

[Infinitron]

I remember playing the demo or the first part of Witch's Wake - it was included in the box potato version of NWN. It was awfully short, but still miles better than the OC. It was a premium module, right? Is it still available anywhere?

There only ever was a first part. The story is unfinished. There were however actually two versions of it - a free version that came with NWN, and a later enhanced premium module version.

And yes: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...sale-from-atari-but-still-downloadable.74190/

 

[DraQ]

IIRC Witch's Wake's no kill xp had funny additional touch provided by NWN's engine limitations: it would always show you how much xp you got from kills.

Wolf dies. The party gains 0 xp.

I can imagine tying mondblut to a chair and forcing him to play it.

 

[set]

Pillars of Eternity is going to change how we look at video games.

VTMB already implemented a "XP only for quests" system. It worked perfectly.

If excidium was here, he would murder you... with his fists.

I'm sure there are other games that implemented it before VTMB, and did it just as well.

There is incentive to fighting enemies, by the way, don't you acquire items from their deaths? Don't you acquire monster data, so that when avoiding them is impossible, you can better combat them (their weaknesses and strengths, etc.)? I admit, it will be very cool to see if someone can do a pacifist run with all stealthing rogues or something.

 

[Rake]

IIRC Witch's Wake's no kill xp had funny additional touch provided by NWN's engine limitations: it would always show you how much xp you got from kills.

Wolf dies. The party gains 0 xp.

I can imagine tying mondblut to a chair and forcing him to play it.

Seven times.

 

[Scroo]

In Pillars of Eternity, experience point gains are no longer a "naturally occuring byproduct" of various systemic activities. They're more like a series of pre-designed, scripted "progression points" scattered throughout the game.

Imagine an RPG where, instead of experience points, you just gain a level every time you finish a chapter. That would essentially be a cruder version of this, one that doesn't allow you to gain more levels via sidequests. But the idea is the same - experience as scripted progression, not as "mineable systemic resource".

Sounds horrible. I like my carrot on a stick because I feel as if it rewards me. Also if I want to grind the crap out of a game, why shouldn't I be allowed to, I'm only ruining it for myself.

Not getting XP for combat encounters... makes encounters kinda tedious for me tbh. And I honestly don't care if that makes me unmonocled

 

[coffeetable]

Sounds horrible. I like my carrot on a stick because I feel as if it rewards me.

please take a moment to consider the life choices that lead you to this point

 

[Scroo]

Sounds horrible. I like my carrot on a stick because I feel as if it rewards me.

please take a moment to consider the life choices that lead you to this point

well it's just the most basic form of satisfaction - do stuff, see numbers go up. And if my brain tells me that this is good, well, why not

 

[Zombra]

Also if I want to grind the crap out of a game, why shouldn't I be allowed to, I'm only ruining it for myself.

You still can. You can kill every monster in sight if you want. Maybe stuff even respawns so you can do the exact same shit over and over and over. If that's fun for you, go for it. Nothing's stopping you.

If you require seeing a number going up for it to be fun, there are other games that do that. MMOs are great at that. This game is being designed without that particular behavioral incentive in mind. Some of us are glad.

 

[Scroo]

I didn't say that I like to grind, just that I don't see why someone who likes to grind shouldn't be allowed to do so. But alright, let's dismiss the grinding aspect.

Let's take D:OS. It is pretty much impossible to outgrind since all the encounters are fixed and enemies don't respawn. Still every combat encounter gives you XP - it's just a great feeling to level up after a hard bossfight. As I said, it's the most basic form of satisfaction but I don't understand why this is necessarily a bad thing. A system like D:OS is balanced and not easily exploitable, so shouldn't everyone be happy with something like that?

And telling me I should stick to MMOs because I like my experience points is umm I dunno, we're still talking about RPGs here right? ^^

 

[Your Order Has Arrived]

If the quests are varied enough (i.e. to all types of characters) I don't see how XP only on quests can become a problem. It is easier to balance and makes doing quests feel more meaningful.
They could have implemented a decaying xp reward for killing monsters of the same type. It would be a soft punish to grind, but not too extreme.

 

[Ninjerk]

A system like D:OS is balanced and not easily exploitable

 

[Athelas]

It's less about grinding (which is not really a thing anyone does in cRPG's even in those that have respawns) and more about not punishing alternate ways to resolve quests. My guess is that they'll have a lot of pacifist options for major story events and faction quests.

 

[Zombra]

As I said, it's the most basic form of satisfaction but I don't understand why this is necessarily a bad thing.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing. No one said that combat XP needs to be eliminated from every RPG ever. On the flip side, no one has shown that it is necessary for every RPG ever to have combat XP. This game uses an objective-based reward system. There's nothing wrong with that either. Not every game needs to cater to slot machine repetitive behavior dopamine junkies.

A system like D:OS is balanced and not easily exploitable, so shouldn't everyone be happy with something like that?

Again, must there be one system for every single RPG?

 

[Lhynn]

I didn't say that I like to grind, just that I don't see why someone who likes to grind shouldn't be allowed to do so. But alright, let's dismiss the grinding aspect.

Let's take D:OS. It is pretty much impossible to outgrind since all the encounters are fixed and enemies don't respawn. Still every combat encounter gives you XP - it's just a great feeling to level up after a hard bossfight. As I said, it's the most basic form of satisfaction but I don't understand why this is necessarily a bad thing. A system like D:OS is balanced and not easily exploitable, so shouldn't everyone be happy with something like that?

And telling me I should stick to MMOs because I like my experience points is umm I dunno, we're still talking about RPGs here right? ^^

ITT people love fixing what isnt broken scroo. In the end all this thing does is give more control to the designer over the players progression.
It also comes from the new school of "play it however you like" that im starting to fucking hate.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Well, I like the idea of EXP rewards for non-combat activities and quest solutions (e.g. PST, ADwR 1, etc). But honestly, if there's predetermined amount of exp given for just completing a chapter or whatever --- I'm not sure I like this approach. I mean, this idea sounds like level scaling in parts. Experience and leveling isn't only a Skinner's box, if implemented correctly it's an incentive for exploration, combat, even dialogues, if they have skill-checks. I can't quite remember any game which used such mechanics, and I don't think it's a good idea.

 

[Zetor]

Plenty of p&p RPGs have done away with the concept of 'kill xp'. Shadowrun is a good example -- why exactly should the players be rewarded for killing x number of corpsec dudes (even if killing them was difficult)? Your job was to go in and get the paydata. You screwed up and had to kill people, don't expect to get rewarded for it.

(though of course the players would get more karma/xp after a particularly challenging session... but that isn't directly connected to the # / level of enemies they killed. Challenge doesn't just mean combat, either)

 

[Infinitron]

But honestly, if there's predetermined amount of exp given for just completing a chapter

That was just an example. The game may end up doing this, of course, because chapters usually end as the result of completing a section in a game's main quest.

 

[Gozma]

No kill XP is good, now just hope all the trash mobs don't drop money and loot and crafting shit so you feel like you need to roll your RtWP lawnmower over them anyway just as if they gave XP