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Things T:TON Did Right and Constructive Criticism for a Sequel

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Well, you can always show your post where you called before me. Otherwise you're just a crying moron baby

Here:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...go-to-new-thread.102141/page-113#post-4763353

OK, I'll give you the Winamp.

I honestly thought I did mention Winamp too at some point, but it must have been one of those posts that I wrote and never posted because I thought "hmm, I think I said this before". And that, bros, is how recursion (or schizophrenia) works.
 

TT1

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Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Well, you can always show your post where you called before me. Otherwise you're just a crying moron baby

Here:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...go-to-new-thread.102141/page-113#post-4763353

OK, I'll give you the Winamp.

I honestly thought I did mention Winamp too at some point, but it must have been one of those posts that I wrote and never posted because I thought "hmm, I think I said this before". And that, bros, is how recursion (or schizophrenia) works.

Its alright, baby. Everything will be just fine. Give me a hug.

images
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Criticisms aside, what did people like or want to see more of?

What was done right?

What suggestions do people have that could save alot of time, energy and money (it is obvious they ran out) for a possible sequel?

Nothing was done right in Torment. Absolutely nothing. Here's how to improve Torment and make it a 9/10 game. In order of importance, and from "easier" to "harder":
  1. Remove Torment from the title.
  2. Cut down on the prose and dialogue.
  3. Make a bigger, longer game, with no fucking cut Kickstarter promises.
  4. Make a compelling story.
  5. Make the different classes be worth picking.
  6. Make Crisis combat fun and fast paced.
  7. Overhaul the whole Effort system. Or better, get rid of it altogether. It's retadred.
  8. JESUS CHRIST MAKE GOOD SOUND AND MUSIC. PS:T was atmospheric as fuck. Close your eyes, and the ambient sounds will take you to places. Particularly noticeable in that busy market of Sigil.
  9. Make more interesting companions. You should be able to remember EVERYTHING about them. How they are introduced is key: they shouldn't be there waiting for you to pick them up. Compare them to PS:T.Morte joins you to guide you, Annah joins you for plot reasons, you recruit everyone else, literally everyone else, and all of them are located in places with their own context that makes sense. By comparison, you pick up two pointless companions (bisexual dude and long-haired glowing dude) that are just "there". While Grace was the owner of a establishment, bisexual dude is watching his friend being executed. Yet his friend never dies, he will always wait for you. While Ignus is the living attraction of a bar, glowing dude, again, is just there, waiting for you to ask him to join you. He doesn't even work at a flying ship store or anything. It's stupid. Take notes from New Vegas, it pulled this off excellently. None of its companions are "there", all of them are related to their context, a context that isn't "pure coincidence". Again, Cass in the Mojave Outpost had a reason to be there for a long time, and she has been there for a long time. ED-E is broken and will remain broken until Johnson Nash manages to fix it. Boone is bound to stick in Novac. Raul is a slave to Tabitha. Arcade is a Follower of the Apocalypse who has his "home" there. Rex is The King's dog. Lilly lives in Jacobstown. You get the point.
 

RationalLunatic

Literate
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Messages
10
Establish strong rules for your world of limitless possibilities, so it won't end up being random. Remember that such rules don't have to be logical. Take Alice in Wonderland where there is a bottle with a label 'Drink me' and cake with 'Eat me' written on it - both change sizes. Logical? No. Defines world? Yes!
If you feel a deep urge to tackle upon serious stuff (like slavery or cannibalism) ask yourself if you're capable of doing so. At all cost, stop yourself from making it quirky. In a friendly, colorful and liberal world something heavy and difficult (like e.g. slavery) sounds ridiculous - not clever.
Make world, story, companions and NPCs coherent. Use them to make a point and strengthen it.
 

rado907

Savant
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
249
Beat the game and enjoyed it, would buy any sequel that gets at least middling reviews. (The more middling the more discount I would wait for...)

- The engine was fine.
- The graphics were good, but the art design was on and off. The "Bloom" area was good, but everything else lacked coherence.
- The "effort points" system didn't make much sense. With any half-decent metagaming one doesn't EVER lose a skill check.
- Combat and itemization were uneven.
- Encounters were uneven.
- Some people here disagree, but RtwP is perfectly legit. The Infinity Engine games are popular for a reason. (That said, turn-based is also good.)
- NPCs were unlikeable - please less edgy and less whiny.
- Voicing goes a LONG way; even amateur voicing for key characters (including ALL NCPs) is worthwhile.
- Video games are a video-based medium. Textwalls have their place, but have to be kept limited. Voiceover (i.e. the narrator goes blah-blah while you're walking around) and show-don't-tell work better.
- In general, quality is better than quantity, and quantity has a quality of its own. That is to say, 15 hours of good gameplay are better than 30 hours of dull gameplay; and a 30 hours of great gameplay are better than 15 hours of great gameplay. (Numenera deftly threaded the fine line between dull and fun...)
- If not broken, OP is preferable to dull.

Please make a sequel. You can take the engine for granted and only worry about gameplay.
 

Father Foreskin

Learned
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
167
- having 10 different ways to solve a quest about fixing a clock is nice. Even better would be if solving the quest in different ways would do something in the gameworld afterwards. Feel free to cut out 8 solutions if the 2 left become more impactful. Now many things seem to play like (on rails)------》(choices)----》(back on rails)
 

Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
Patron
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
13,555
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Don't change stuff over five years. Come up with a story and try to stick to it as much as possible.
Keep the team in the same location. Don't use a team of people that live all over the world.
 

Karellen

Arcane
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
327
- The "effort points" system didn't make much sense. With any half-decent metagaming one doesn't EVER lose a skill check.

I still think that the effort points are a pretty neat idea, even if misused in the actual game. I like the notio that you can succeed at skill checks without meeting some arbitrary fixed stat threshold in exchange for using a limited resource, since, even if it encourages metagaming, it's still a more fun metagame than figuring out the stat thresholds you need to reach beforehand so you can finish the quests you want. Where this falls apart is that, in T:ToN, the stat pools are not a meaningful limited resource, because you can pretty much rest all you like (it's nice that resting changes some missions, but it doesn't work as a systemic limitation) and even if you don't, you can restore your pools with consumables. Most of all, you don't really have situations in which you'd be forced to go through a lot of checks in a row so you'd actually be in danger of running out. The system only really does anything if the player deliberately avoids cheesing with resting and item use and tries to rest as few times as possible.

So the issue is that Numenera just isn't a very good fit for a game centered around talky quest-solving in a city hub (although, in all fairness, I'm not sure if there is a system well-suited for that). The Numenera setting itself isn't about that, but moreover, the PnP game itself is good for exactly one type of play - creative problem solving in dungeons. In that scenario the stat pools (as well as the Cyphers and such) work out all right, since they're a way to inflict attrition on the player's resources without involving a fight. Even in a video game, the Effort system could work out well in a game structured like, say, the new Shadowrun games, that is, missions; you'd have to go through a sizeable area with multiple problems and encounters without the opportunity rest or return later, so you'd actually have to conserve your resources and figure out the most efficient way to get through while getting as much done as possible. Actually, I think that's what the Crises were supposed to be like, but they're just too short and simple to require any strategy. I guess, ultimately, this sort of thing isn't really appropriate for a PS:T spiritual successor, so all these Numenera systems that actually have a point in their proper context end up existing in a vacuum.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
This! It's a very sound advice. 3/4 of the criticism would vanish like hot air once it's done.

Jesus Christ on a Crutch! I remember the Fallout Tactic treament in the hand of Codex/NMA/Fallout diehards aka glittering gems of hatred days. And this game start to smell that way.

It makes sense for Fallout: Tactics to have the Fallout name on it, after all, it is set in the Fallout universe. And no one is able to say "if it is a Fallout game, it has to be a roleplaying game". I give flak to Bethesda for their poor RPGs, but I can't give flak to Tactics because it was never meant to be an RPG.

Tides of Numenera, however... using "Torment" on the title is just a cheap maneouver, and inXile deserves all the flak it gets for trying to create a successor Planescape: Torment. I also believe that removing "Torment" from the title would have made them reconsider the entire game. Who knows? Maybe it wouldn't be so text heavy anymore.
 

Lord Azlan

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Jun 4, 2014
Messages
1,901
  1. Remove Torment from the title.
This! It's a very sound advice. 3/4 of the criticism would vanish like hot air once it's done.

Jesus Christ on a Crutch! I remember the Fallout Tactic treament in the hand of Codex/NMA/Fallout diehards aka glittering gems of hatred days. And this game start to smell that way.

Would suggest Tides got better scores for having Torment in the title and some would have eased up on the criticism because of that.

Without the PST baggage the game is not quite average. Some decent graphics. Broken combat. Broken effort system. Small game.

The guys did a good job in creating the Planescape universe but I would suggest less effort on the wonders and more on story and character development.

15 years ago PST had that little bio page on each companion. Tracked their stats and they had their own items which could be improved via interaction with TNO or story line.

Brave to take on the job. Let's see if they learn from their mistakes.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
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1,865,419
Inevitably InExile will try and figure out what they did right and wrong with this game. They will probably do an internal review or something and go looking for feedback from outside parties.

No, they won’t. If they consistently ignored feedback in the past, what makes you think they will suddenly change their attitude? In their heads, they made a modern classic and anyone who thinks any different is an arbitrary hater.

The Codex is ridiculous and also really good at tearing games apart and pointing out what works. If InExile do decide to do a sequel/expansions/restore-cut-content it will be a no-brainer to look on the Codex to get feedback.

And that’s the very reason why they decided to cut ties with the Codex. They are arrogant, think they know best, and can’t take serious criticism. They manage to isolate themselves from feedback on “Wasteland 2”, did the same thing with “Tides of Numenera”, and stop even pretending they care on the fig campaign for “Wasteland 3”. So much for crowdfunding openness, huh?

Tides of Numenera, however... using "Torment" on the title is just a cheap maneouver, and inXile deserves all the flak it gets for trying to create a successor Planescape: Torment. I also believe that removing "Torment" from the title would have made them reconsider the entire game. Who knows? Maybe it wouldn't be so text heavy anymore.

That’s the most preposterous counterfactual you can think of. We are only talking about this game because people were willing to fund a sequel of “Planescape: Torment”. Arguing that the game wouldn’t look so bad in comparison if it had nothing to do with “Planescape” is pointless, because it was funded to be a successor of “Planescape” in the first place.
 
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Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
That’s the most preposterous counterfactual you can think of. We are only talking about this game because people were willing to fund a sequel of “Planescape: Torment”. Arguing that the game wouldn’t look so bad in comparison if it had nothing to do with “Planescape” is pointless, because it was funded to be a successor of “Planescape” in the first place.

All arguing is pointless when the game has already shipped. We are just speculating. I believe inXile could have easily funded Tides of Numenera if it didn't have Torment attached to the title. It wouldn't have raised as much money, then again, I don't think it would have needed it.

Just like there were people who funded the game because of PS:T, others didn't fund it because they weren't interested in a playable novel.
 
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Lurker King

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All arguing is pointless when the game has already shipped. We are just speculating. I believe inXile could have easily funded Tides of Numenera if it didn't have Torment attached to the title. It wouldn't have raised as much money, then again, I don't think it would have needed it.

Just like there were people who funded the game because of PS:T, others didn't fund it because they weren't interested in a playable novel.

Not, it wouldn’t be easily funded for the simple reason that the whole cRPG renascence was moved by nostalgia. If anything, it would make things much worse. Not only they would receive meager funds, but they would also have more leeway to do what they want. If they manage to fuck things up while having a formula to follow that most gamers know what it is, more time for pre-production and more money than the other kickstarters, just imagine if things were any different. Do you think that massaging the sphincter of the Bloom is embarrassing? Just imagine what would be the dream cRPG of Colin McComb. Anita Sarkeesian would be part of the writing team, the game would have Trump as villain, and the main story would be about immigration.
 
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Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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I still think that the effort points are a pretty neat idea, even if misused in the actual game. I like the notio that you can succeed at skill checks without meeting some arbitrary fixed stat threshold.

Arbitray? Why? Because you don't want to fail in skill checks? These numbers represents the level of dificulty to succed in a given task.

Hire (and empower) a decent writer, and fire the quacks.

Fixed.
 
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Lurker King

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The good things about ToN:

- The loading times are better than in PoE.
- It is isometric.
- Scan thoughts are cool.
- It can be used to promote real cRPGs like AoD.
 

existential_vacuum

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Make the Codex Great Again!
Inevitably InExile will try and figure out what they did right and wrong with this game. They will probably do an internal review or something and go looking for feedback from outside parties.

No, they won’t. If they consistently ignored feedback in the past, what makes you think they will suddenly change their attitude? In their heads, they made a modern classic and anyone who thinks any different is an arbitrary hater.

The Codex is ridiculous and also really good at tearing games apart and pointing out what works. If InExile do decide to do a sequel/expansions/restore-cut-content it will be a no-brainer to look on the Codex to get feedback.

And that’s the very reason why they decided to cut ties with the Codex. They are arrogant, think they know best, and can’t take serious criticism. They manage to isolate themselves from feedback on “Wasteland 2”, did the same thing with “Tides of Numenera”, and stop even pretending they care on the fig campaign for “Wasteland 3”. So much for crowdfunding openness, huh?
Have nothing to add to that so :brodex:.
Also, this thread has no potential.
The only thing T:ToN did right is the torment part: tormented me for ~35-40 hours until I was done with it. And I wasn't even able to go and replay PS:T, because I did so in Jan.
So kudos to inXaisle for shattering codexers psyche.
As for those who keep any semblance of hope - don't. And apply wait and see approach. Otherwise:
serves_you_right.png
 
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Gunnar

Arbiter
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Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
I finished the game, ending was a bit of a letdown and the game seemed to be missing an Act 3. You get showered with cool cyphers, brand new weapons and armour and new abilities the moment you step into the Bloom but it's all kind of pointless as there is nowhere to use it all. The game needed a dungeon with combat somewhere to make all of it relevant, like the Mechanus Maze or Undersigil parts in Planescape. Throw in some rare drops and it would be fine.

Companions were pretty bad across the board. Erritis was the only somewhat entertaining one. Why are the portraits so shitty?

I liked the CYOA segments for the most part.

Do not like Numenara setting. sci-fantasy carnival with no consistency.

DLC containing the third act, along with a new companion that isn't terrible and a dungeon would go a long way.

On the writing, please patch out the rotting bells and emotion smells, edit some of the loopy word salad alice in wonderland dialogue that shows up all the time into something less retarded.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
They manage to isolate themselves from feedback on “Wasteland 2”, did the same thing with “Tides of Numenera”, and stop even pretending they care on the fig campaign for “Wasteland 3”. So much for crowdfunding openness, huh?

Good for them. Not every developer needs to design by committee, community or focus group. I find it refreshing that they do their own thing. Having a strong vision and not altering it to a huge extent due to community feedback is a rare approach these days.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
No, please, no dungeon. Not with this combat and not with these designers. If you thought TOEE lacked diversity in bugbears, just imagine how these people would populate a dungeon.
 

Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
No, please, no dungeon. Not with this combat and not with these designers. If you thought TOEE lacked diversity in bugbears, just imagine how these people would populate a dungeon.

How would you make a good dungeon for this game? If you could tweak the combat a little, (since they're going to do that)
 

Karellen

Arcane
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
327
I still think that the effort points are a pretty neat idea, even if misused in the actual game. I like the notio that you can succeed at skill checks without meeting some arbitrary fixed stat threshold.

Arbitray? Why? Because you don't want to fail in skill checks? These numbers represents the level of dificulty to succed in a given task.

A task must indeed have a difficulty level of some type. The problem is that in the real world, an attempt to complete a task typically does not result in either a total success and total failure. This is why it's rarely possible to determine a single sufficient level of skill for succeeding at a task, because people can do things with great ease, they can manage after considerable effort or with the help of appropriate aids and resources, they can come up with a solution that is suboptimal but partially does the job and so forth. For this reason, PnP RPGs tend to have task resolution that breaks down to grades of success, along the lines of perfect success, partial success, success with a cost, minor failure, critical failure and such.

Regrettably, this is something that CRPGs do infrequently and inconsistently at best, because generally speaking such degrees of success would have to be scripted individually, which starts to increase the complexity of a game exponentially. In comparison, the Numenera system is a step closer to what PnP RPGs can accomplish, since it can differentiate between situations in which you succeed easily and situations in which you manage after using up resources. Of course, this is largely theory, because in practice the T:ToN system falls apart because you can break it by abusing the sleep system, but the idea itself is promising, particularly if it was refined further to allow for more mechanical outcomes, perhaps along the lines of something like Burning Wheel. Alas, probably not going to happen, but a man can always hope.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Not, it wouldn’t be easily funded for the simple reason that the whole cRPG renascence was moved by nostalgia.

And you think "hey, we are inXile, makers of Wasteland 2, we are making yet another isometric cRPG" isn't nostalgia enough? Shadowrun isn't nostalgia?

I'm not even going to talk about le evil SJWs since I don't care about that topic, but to imply "Torment" was the sole reason ToN was funded is ridiculous.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
No, please, no dungeon. Not with this combat and not with these designers. If you thought TOEE lacked diversity in bugbears, just imagine how these people would populate a dungeon.

How would you make a good dungeon for this game? If you could tweak the combat a little, (since they're going to do that)

Dunno, I certainly am no game designer. I'm just saying that these people would just fill the whole thing with about 2 dozen of the same enemy and you'll have to fight all of them in the same neverending crisis that will make you want to kill yourself.

With this combat system, and the items that are available I think the best way would to have very small fights... against say maximum 3-4 enemies, preferably of different types. Even then, the speed needs to be considerably increased and the stupid, useless animations decreased and that faggot animator with his root motion faggotry fired and shamed in public.
 
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