Information Thorvalla Kickstarter goes online

[skuphundaku]

The reason why I personally react to pitches is because I try to put myself in "average Kickstarter-Joe's" place. I've backed every single project that has appealed to me. That includes one that fucked failed as well (Haunts - motherfuckers)*... luckily I didn't pledge more than $5 for that. So it's not a matter of me personally being persuaded to pledge or not, it's a matter of me being disappointed that the creator hasn't been creative enough to make it succeed taking everybody else in account.

*
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Don't give up on Haunts altogether. Rick released the code as open-source and now I'm one of the volunteers working on getting it to work. It kinda' works on Windows but the Linux version is currently fucked because of some changes in the dependencies and I'm busting my head trying to get to the bottom of it right now.

 

[Moribund]

I'm sure they cost a lot more than that. 10 guys sitting around thinking of ideas for one month is 50k, that's before they actually do anything at all.


If you don't have the names to back it up it's probably not so much a risk as a certainty you'll fail.

I don't think KS is realistic for random schmoe to get much without a big campaign and mass appeal and a lot of work to show, maybe a demo. But it is a bigger surprise to see that people are really only responding to fluff and to names, that's it. 90% of the comments on the last kickstarter were about the pitch, too. Very depressing.

I'm not asking for a whole team to do pre-production for month full time.

I'm asking for 2-3 people to do pre-production for a month part time.

I'm asking for a brief description of what the game will be like. So far I haven't seen that. I've seen stuff that will be in the game, and stuff that might be in the game, but not a description of what the sum of the parts will be like.

Obsidian put way more into that that's just the shooting ideas around phase.

You have more description than for like every game I;ve ever bought, just no pictures.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Yes, franchise and clone: poor choice of words. Still, the sequel principle applies in part at least. Conquistador does stand out but that was about as close as Hero-U. And the goal was quite low.

Oh well, Brother None is right. Gotta see the glass half full.

 

[Zed]

Don't give up on Haunts altogether. Rick released the code as open-source and now I'm one of the volunteers working on getting it to work. It kinda' works on Windows but the Linux version is currently fucked because of some changes in the dependencies and I'm busting my head trying to get to the bottom of it right now.

Oh, well that's good to hear. I would have given you the 5 dollars if I knew it would end up like this. Good luck

 

[J1M]

Yes, franchise and clone: poor choice of words. Still, the sequel principle applies in part at least. Conquistador does stand out but that was about as close as Hero-U. And the goal was quite low.

Oh well, Brother None is right. Gotta see the glass half full.

Generally the anti-sequel argument arises when people are tired of playing clones of the same concept. That isn't really the case, as most of these game styles have not been seen in a decade. Are you suggesting that every kickstarter should aspire to create a new genre?

 

[FeelTheRads]

If there's no people interested, then it won't make it. Big shock? You still need to sell, which means people will want to buy. Kickstarter is a way to circumvent publishers, not a way to circumvent capitalism as a whole.

No, not a big shock. Just that it doesn't look like those niches that Kickstarter was supposed to cover are really all that big or worthy of the effort. Seems obvious to me that it would get harder and harder to make it on Kickstarter so in the end we'll end up with medium-big companies pushing out what sells better anyway: Real-time, RTwP and sequels and/or clones.

Why not? What big scheme? Did you want Kickstarter to oust publishers and change the face of gaming?

Wasn't this what it was hailed as? I never believed it and that's what I'm saying here. Great, it helped a couple of developers. What's next?

They wouldn't. Because EA. Maybe prior to EA.

What does that mean? You think people would refuse to give money to Bioware because of EA? Yeah, I don't think so. Just say "we'll get back to our roots but it will be totally modern also gay romance" and watch the millions flow.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Yes, franchise and clone: poor choice of words. Still, the sequel principle applies in part at least. Conquistador does stand out but that was about as close as Hero-U. And the goal was quite low.

Oh well, Brother None is right. Gotta see the glass half full.

Generally the anti-sequel argument arises when people are tired of playing clones of the same concept. That isn't really the case, as most of these game styles have not been seen in a decade. Are you suggesting that every kickstarter should aspire to create a new genre?

Yeah, er... No not me.

But I did say it would be nice if it weren't a near-systematic prerequisite.

 

[skuphundaku]

Don't give up on Haunts altogether. Rick released the code as open-source and now I'm one of the volunteers working on getting it to work. It kinda' works on Windows but the Linux version is currently fucked because of some changes in the dependencies and I'm busting my head trying to get to the bottom of it right now.

Oh, well that's good to hear. I would have given you the 5 dollars if I knew it would end up like this. Good luck

When we have some working versions I'll start a thread here on the 'Dex and ask you and the other people interested in Haunts for some feedback. Right now we're just working on making heads and tails of what the programmer that left did and how it all works together (or, more accurately, why it doesn't work because of updates in the dependencies). I hope it won't take as long as AoD, given that we're doing this in our spare time, but we'll live and see.

 

[PosledniKovboj]

Is that the thing written in Go?

 

[skuphundaku]

Yup

 

[tuluse]

No, not a big shock. Just that it doesn't look like those niches that Kickstarter was supposed to cover are really all that big or worthy of the effort.

Kickstarter isn't supposed to do anything other than let creators pitch their ideas directly to their audience.

Seems obvious to me that it would get harder and harder to make it on Kickstarter so in the end we'll end up with medium-big companies pushing out what sells better anyway: Real-time, RTwP and sequels and/or clones

So far it seems like there is plenty of TB games getting funded.

Wasn't this what it was hailed as? I never believed it and that's what I'm saying here. Great, it helped a couple of developers. What's next?

Why does there have to be what's next? What's wrong with what's happened so far?

What does that mean? You think people would refuse to give money to Bioware because of EA? Yeah, I don't think so. Just say "we'll get back to our roots but it will be totally modern also gay romance" and watch the millions flow.

This whole conversation is pointless. Who cares if Bioware does do a kickstarter for real time romance with aliens? It won't affect the projects you or I are interested in any way. If Brian Fargo or Guido Henkel wanted to make an action game about alien sex they probably could sell that to publisher. They don't want to, so they went to kickstarter. As long as people keep having good ideas and taking them to kickstarter, who cares if there is bad ideas on there too?

 

[Stelcio]

The truth is Guido thought he's German Brian Fargo and Hallford is his MCA-magic-money-magnet, but they just aren't. They are some obscure developers behind some long-forgotten gems of niche genre. Face it.

BTW Fargo actually did a massive labour around his kickstarter, making it the jazz back then. Guido did nothing significant.

Another truth is that despite above he showed us less than any Codexer could show in his "RPG of my dreams" pitch after working on it few hours a day in his spare time for a bare month. This kickstarter is truly insulting in terms of content, especially looking on how high the goal is.

More - he doesn't seem to have anything more to show atm. It's not looking like he's hiding the good stuff for updates (well, hopefully he is, but it doesn't seem likely, thus people won't pledge for now).

And that's why this kickstarter is a massive failure. It lacks just everywhere and still asks for A MILLION BUCKS.

 

[Brother None]

Yeah, people may have forgotten by Fargo did quite a bit of lifting to get himself back in the public eye. He was a fairly forgotten name. Not totally, and the name Interplay still had some clout, but not exactly a household name, like Schafer. But he managed to cast himself as the leader of the anti-publisher crusade and hero of crowdfunding. He used a ton of industry contacts, both from journalists and from friendly devs, to get them to tweet about it, talk about it, even pledge to it (several of the $10K pledges are from other devs). It is a lot of work even before Kickstarter launches, but that's just the way life works. You can't just open up your wallet and expect money to fall in. Gotta spend money to make money. Or at least effort. A hell of a lot of effort.

 

[Zed]

Yeah, people may have forgotten by Fargo did quite a bit of lifting to get himself back in the public eye, and used a ton of industry contacts, both from journalists and from friendly devs, to get them to tweet about it, talk about it, even pledge to it (several of the $10K pledges are from other devs). It is a lot of work even before Kickstarter launches, but that's just the way life works. You can't just open up your wallet and expect money to fall in. Gotta spend money to make money. Or at least effort. A hell of a lot of effort.

... and not just Fargo, just as Project Eternity sure as hell wasn't just Adam Brennecke.

A million dollars will give jobs to people. What people?
InXile has that hispanic-looking tech dude who seems pretty awesome, and an actual (small) development team. They made it clear they would hire Unity people once tech was announced. Writing collabs were announced during the campaign.
Obsidian is Obsidian.
Harebrained (Shadowrun Returns) had their team involved in the KS video.
Hell, even Shaker had a team photo and description.

Shit. Now it looks like I'm nitpicking but it's actually just me realizing how thin this KS is. I want Neal and Guido working on a game. I hope they kill the KS soon and re-evaluate their situation and how to approach crowdfunding, unless they can pull a magic trick.

 

[Excidium]

The custom of asking for a million dollars and then coming up with a random game idea over the following month has got to fucking stop.

I don't care who it is or what their background is. This is starting to become a pillar of the crowd funding approach and it is damaging the whole system. Stop fucking doing it. It's crude and unprofessional

You need a solid game idea with a good quantity of setting material, fully outlined mechanics and art that is integrated into that setting and not randomly commissioned crap ("this is like an elf that kinda looks like a race we might put into the game when we start working on it"). Start doing this in a way that respects the audience

 

[tuluse]

... and not just Fargo, just as Project Eternity sure as hell wasn't just Adam Brennecke.

A million dollars will give jobs to people. What people?
InXile has that hispanic-looking tech dude who seems pretty awesome, and an actual (small) development team. They made it clear they would hire Unity people once tech was announced. Writing collabs were announced during the campaign.
Obsidian is Obsidian.
Harebrained (Shadowrun Returns) had their team involved in the KS video.
Hell, even Shaker had a team photo and description.

Shit. Now it looks like I'm nitpicking but it's actually just me realizing how thin this KS is. I want Neal and Guido working on a game. I hope they kill the KS soon and re-evaluate their situation and how to approach crowdfunding, unless they can pull a magic trick.

I know what you mean, at first I was just thinking "well this isn't the best pitch ever", and now I've talked myself into full blown "are they even trying?" mode.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Yeah, people may have forgotten by Fargo did quite a bit of lifting to get himself back in the public eye, and used a ton of industry contacts, both from journalists and from friendly devs, to get them to tweet about it, talk about it, even pledge to it (several of the $10K pledges are from other devs). It is a lot of work even before Kickstarter launches, but that's just the way life works. You can't just open up your wallet and expect money to fall in. Gotta spend money to make money. Or at least effort. A hell of a lot of effort.

... and not just Fargo, just as Project Eternity sure as hell wasn't just Adam Brennecke.

A million dollars will give jobs to people. What people?

They did say they wanted to staff the game appropriately. Somewhere. It isn't for just them two... Actually three. True that they aren't showing much of the team ahead of time though, and that possible recruitment failure is an added risk.

 

[kaizoku]

I honestly don't think crowdfunding a million is an option in Henkel's situation, if he can't invest something himself. KS is not a card you can pull to summon a million dollars from thin air. It costs money to make money.
Remember Fargo put WL2 at $900k because he could inject 100k himself if needed? You can't go from dirt poor to millionaire in 30 days unless you win the lottery.

These guys (W2, PE, TV, etc) can't make the type of game they want to make with 1,000,000$

And that was just a play by Fargo "looks at me guys, I believe in this so much and I'm such a good guy that I'll put the needed 100k).
I'm not doubting he wouldn't, but he's a very smart guy and he knew (it was his bet) he could surpass that.


IMO the best approach is for Henkel and Nelios to put some solid 1-2 months work, and then pitch it.
Alternatively they can just lower the production values (aka graphics) to be able to lower the KS goal.

 

[Brother None]

Apropos, Kickstarter just put up its summation of gaming on Kickstarter. That's more than video gaming, but still, $50 million has been pledged to gaming in 2012 alone. 20 projects raising more than $500K were gaming projects. It's pretty impressive.

They also note it's 23% of their total. I'm not sure that $50 million includes pledges to failed projects. If it doesn't, Kickstarter handles like $200 million in successful pledges a year? They're making like $10 million for doing pretty much nothing? Man. I want that job.

 

[Zed]

And that was just a play by Fargo "looks at me guys, I believe in this so much and I'm such a good guy that I'll put the needed 100k).
I'm not doubting he wouldn't, but he's a very smart guy and he knew (it was his bet) he could surpass that.

Yeah, that's probably true.

IMO the best approach is for Henkel and Nelios to put some solid 1-2 months work, and then pitch it.
Alternatively they can just lower the production values (aka graphics) to be able to lower the KS goal.

Well it's not like we know what they're aiming for yet, in terms of production value. That's part of why the KS feels shoddy, since it's asking for a mil.

 

[Primordial Soup Nazi]

In-and-of itself, I don't think starting with 1-3 people for a Kickstarter launch is a deal-breaker; the problem comes when you aim for a seven-digit goal with a crew that small, to a backdrop of poor (or virtually no) marketing out of the gate.

True that they aren't showing much of the team ahead of time though, and that possible recruitment failure is an added risk.

The star power on this KS isn't enough to sell a vague collection of assurances, but I would think that Henkel and Hallford combined actually would be enough of a driving force to be able to hire some affordable and talented help; I don't think recruitment failure would be much of a risk. There's a lot of talent in the biz that nobody has heard of, who would love to work relatively cheap just to be able have a successful project, created with notable industry names at the helm, under their belt.

Really, I think they're just screwing up two factors: The pitch, and the timing. The former may not necessarily be an easy fix, but its a simple one; just provide a coherent outline, and appealing details, preferably with some sort of audio/visual element, and no DragonBall-Z characters.

The latter is so simple that its actually a little troubling that they didn't have the common sense to do this from the get-go; the past several months have been Kickstartalicious as far as PC games go, and we're about at the "holiday season" now, so why not wait until late January to fire this up?

 

[Charles-cgr]

The latter is so simple that its actually a little troubling that they didn't have the common sense to do this from the get-go; the past several months have been Kickstartalicious as far as PC games go, and we're about at the "holiday season" now, so why not wait until late January to fire this up?

Some have argued, based on past KS data, that jan-march is the lowest season of the year and therefore waiting past december means pushing it to April. Apparently it is easier to cheat coax people out of money before they spend it on gifts than after :D Not sure what that is worth though, considering KS data on games is completely outdated now, given Brother None 's link.

 

[JoKa]

I'd like to hear what Guido Henkel has to say to this thread here

 

[Primordial Soup Nazi]

And bear in mind that the statistical sampling is pretty small in this instance; Kickstarter came out in '09, and (I think?) didn't have any particular runaway popularity until 2010-11.

I cite late January as its still a very "indoors" time of the year for the Kwa, but a few weeks have gone by for people to have recuperated a bit, monetarily. You could very well be right, and maybe the September-October range could be KS prime-time or something. But I suspect that late January would have a better turnout than late November; people are already budgeting and buying for December.

 

[PosledniKovboj]

I'd like to hear what Guido Henkel has to say to this thread here

Link's already been posted in the KS comments