Information Thorvalla Kickstarter goes online

[Moribund]

Probably means oblique cavalier, like fallout.

What they can do with $200 is much more important than what they can do with $1M. If they can come up with some pretty great ideas for $200, then I'd love to see what they can do with $1M. If they can't come up with anything for $200, who's to say they'll come up with anything for $400, $800,... $1M?

Well, why give them money at all then?

 

[Burning Bridges]

No reason to write off everything just because not every idea gets funded, especially considering this amount of money!

 

[tuluse]

I kinda have to agree with Charles-cgr. All this dream of tens of thousands of people wishing for RPGs might just be a dream. Kickstarter is really just a way to get cheap games (games that are almost sure to be made, so from established companies) for most people.

Here I thought crowdfunding was about a chance to have ideas that publishers won't touch made into games, not just throwing money at people because they say they want to make an rpg.

And how do you want them to make the game?
Publishers don't like your pitch -> you don't make the game
"The people" don't like your pitch -> you don't make the game

Fucking big difference. This shit's gonna die as suddenly as it appeared.

It is a big difference because publishers only care about how much money your idea will make them, while "the people" only care that you make a fun game.

I guess since crowd funding doesn't do exactly what you you want it to, it's a broken system that won't fund anything.

 

[Moribund]

No reason to write off everything just because not every idea gets funded, especially considering this amount of money!

It's not like someone who isn't MCA can a similar make game for one hundred times less due to having a less well known name. So if that's really how things work then KS may as well die for all I care, now that WL 2 is funded.

 

[Brother None]

Reread the threads about this prior to the KS launch and sense the before / after effect. It's appalling. Pierre Begue should read this too. Food for thought.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. What's appalling? People criticizing a vague, uninspired pitch? How is that appalling?

Fucking big difference. This shit's gonna die as suddenly as it appeared.

Just like the publisher model disappeared because they don't fund all games? You're not making much sense here. Shoddily-made Kickstarters aren't going to make it, big whoop. It's not a magic fountain of money, you have to work for it, but it's not going anywhere for good concepts. Even Hero-U is going to make it, if barely.

Are going to bang the doom drums every time one doesn't make it? New and exciting ones will keep appearing, smaller and bigger. Some will fail, some will succeed. Good times.

It's not like someone who isn't MCA can a similar make game for one hundred times less due to having a less well known name. So if that's really how things work then KS may as well die for all I care, now that WL 2 is funded.

Is this really that shocking? People aren't going to just keep throwing money at every other idea on Kickstarter, not in videogames, not in any other field.

If you want a lot of money, there has to be sufficient reason for people to give it to you, and name recognition is a huge thing for that. For others, you'll have to stick to smaller amounts or go the traditional indie route and self-fund it. That's less than ideal, but you're overstating it if you think that means Kickstarter is worthless as a whole. Getting sizeable budgets out of Kickstarter is really hard. People will have to realize that, especially pitchers like Henkel, it's still an additional opportunity for funding that is nothing but a boon to the industry.

 

[Smejki]

I know Guido, I like his projects of the past. I won't pledge. Why? C'mon, this is not how a proper RPG studio looks like. They have no credibility and no recent relevant project. There is just Guido, sitting and saying things. That's not enough. I wouldn't plegde Chris Avellone either if he had his own studio with ugly website which made two shitty mobile games since his last good 15yrs old project (let's assume it was Fallout 2).

That's pretty much true as far as I'm concerned, of MCA.

Me might argue about that. The main difference is that MCA('s studio) made many games since PS:T, unlike Guido. His experience is so old that it lost any relevancy in my eyes, unlike MCA.

 

[Charles-cgr]

What they can do with $200 is much more important than what they can do with $1M. If they can come up with some pretty great ideas for $200, then I'd love to see what they can do with $1M. If they can't come up with anything for $200, who's to say they'll come up with anything for $400, $800,... $1M?

I'm not reading much criticism for lack of ideas, but for lack of "things to show". Things that cost a lot of money, like art, mockups, or even 1 or 2 months of preparation.

 

[Zed]

Yesterday some space game raised like what.. 6 mil?

Crowdfunding is viable. You just have to do it right.

 

[Brother None]

I'm not reading much criticism for lack of ideas, but for lack of "things to show". Things that cost a lot of money, like art, mockups, or even 1 or 2 months of preparation.

Yes? That's what's going to happen. Nothing is for free in life, including crowdfunded budgets. If you want a lot of money, you're going to have to put in some time and effort. These studios regularly make pitch documents for publishers, but you're saying it's too much effort for them to make something like that for the crowd? In that case, fuck 'em.

And it is about ideas too. Not a lack of ideas, but a finalization and presentation of ideas. This Kickstarter pitch is simply too vague on too many things. It'll have card game concepts! Ok, what does that mean? I want to do stuff to innovate the old P&P-inspired cRPG mechanics? Ok, but WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Are you really saying it's unreasonable for people to ask for a pitch to be more than "a handful of cool ideas" when you're asking for $1 million?

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's not a magic fountain of money, you have to work for it, but it's not going anywhere for good concepts. Even Hero-U is going to make it, if barely.

Are going to bang the doom drums every time one doesn't make it?

Are you going to claim the project is shoddily-made whenever one doesn't make it or it barely does? All Sierra kickstarters barely made it. Guess they were all bad? Or maybe there aren't that many people interested in this anymore?
If a good project fails because the pitch video was not funny or it didn't have tits, then this is a fucking failure. A couple of big successful projects don't mean anything in the big scheme.
Bioware would make a killing on Kickstarter with no pitch, just with "I MAEK GAEM". Think about that. If you think they won't because Kickstarter is some sort of an old-school magical fairyland, you're deluded.

 

[Zed]

What they can do with $200 is much more important than what they can do with $1M. If they can come up with some pretty great ideas for $200, then I'd love to see what they can do with $1M. If they can't come up with anything for $200, who's to say they'll come up with anything for $400, $800,... $1M?

I'm not reading much criticism for lack of ideas, but for lack of "things to show". Things that cost a lot of money, like art, mockups, or even 1 or 2 months of preparation.

You're reading it the wrong way.

"Why couldn't he show better and more concept art" does not necessarily mean "I'm disappointing I didn't get a new wallpaper with this KS." Rather; "I don't think this concept art tells me very much about the game".

So what if you have to spend some money on making a better presentation? The presentation is there to clarify what you mean. This is a 1 million project - not a $20k one.

Crowdfunding isn't a market in which you can fully skip the superficial bullshit. What it allows you to skip is the publisher interference during development.

 

[tuluse]

Are you going to claim the project is shoddily-made whenever one doesn't make it or it barely does? All Sierra kickstarters barely made it. Guess they were all bad? Or maybe there aren't that many people interested in this anymore?
If a good project fails because the pitch video was not funny or it didn't have tits, then this is a fucking failure. A couple of big successful projects don't mean anything in the big scheme.
Bioware would make a killing on Kickstarter with no pitch, just with "I MAEK GAEM". Think about that. If you think they won't because Kickstarter is some sort of an old-school magical fairyland, you're deluded.

What does this even mean? You went one crazy tangent there dude.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Me might argue about that. The main difference is that MCA('s studio) made many games since PS:T, unlike Guido. His experience is so old that it lost any relevancy in my eyes, unlike MCA.

Fascinating. Newfags gonna newfag.

Also: HURR DURR HE MADE MOBILE GAMES THAT MEANS HE SUCKS LOLOL.

 

[FeelTheRads]

What does this even mean? You went one crazy tangent there dude.

What does it mean? It means that relatively unknown people can't do their projects, while any big company would make a killing without really showing anything. See Obsidian. And just imagine what the likes of Bioware and Bethesda would do. And no, Obsidian didn't get 4 million from "old-school" players. They got most of it from Bioware rejects.

 

[tuluse]

I don't think you can compare these two situations, Obsidian is a proven developer that has made RPGs (or at least RPG-like substance).

G3 Studios? Not so much. The project isn't just going to be Guido doing everything, and their studio lacks any credibility with regards to the ability to make an in-depth RPG. Even InXile has Bard's Tale. I haven't played, and I hear it sucks, but it at least shows they know how to program and produce an RPG.

Anyways, there are many examples of relative unknowns getting kickstarter money, just not a million bucks because that's a lot of money and there are significant risks involved. When you can't even describe the game so that people know what their funding, that makes it huge risks.

 

[kaizoku]

The UK is not in Europe? o_O

Europe is everywhere that uses a German controlled euro currency ...

fixed

Heh, I think you guys covered it well. I don't think the crowdfunding well is running dry but a lot of guys pitching things seem to be under the misapprehension that it is some kind of magic money button, where you can half-ass a pitch and it just comes pouring in. DoubleFine will probably be the only Kickstarter ever that can get away with "give us money and we'll do cool stuff!", because it was the first and because of the brand value of DoubleFine and Schafer. Fargo already showed a lot more and put in a lot of effort to push his Kickstarter on by tying in big names and dropping fairly substantive pieces of info (though often still vague). P:E had to one-up that, having big names from the start and focusing mostly on showing off real, substantive information, piling it on at a high pace, and appealing to arguably a larger crowd than WL2 (the Infinity Engine crowd).

I pledged because of the name Henkel but he is fooling himself if he thinks his name carries the clout of a Schafer or Avellone. Hell, even Fargo had to kind of "remind people" who he was and cleverly took the time to do so, using his industry contacts well. This all takes a lot of work, as well as the right moments, names and contacts, all of which Henkel seems to lack. Because of all that this seems to have dropped dead before it even started. Maybe if it had come out with actual screenshots, or better art, or even a mocked up video, then maybe, but even then it's hard to get one million, many Kickstarters that showed their game was real, like that action game with that Dutch heroic figure (forgot the name), still struggled to.

It's an interesting discussion for sure. Kickstarter fatigue is a real thing but the question is what it means to future projects. It certainly doesn't mean, in my mind, that a one-million dollar cRPG like this can't work. It means it has to be smart and high-effort about its approach, which this Thorvalla pitch sadly lacks. We'll see more exciting, better-constructed cRPGs pitches in the future though, if perhaps not any time too soon.

It depends on who is doing the pitch.
This one is a prime example of that.
The Elite guy didn't even had a fucking pitch video.
It was just his brand.

Like you (and many others) said, unfortunately Guido does not have a brand. So he should have compensate that, by - at the very least - showing the game on paper.
Committing his idea, showing it, and letting people decide if they want to pledge or not.
Hell, even convincing the people that played RoA is hard, much less the other that haven't played it, or think Guido had no influence in PS:T.
Maybe those specific updates will be coming out during the updates?
Might not be enough to save this KS anyway...



Disclaimer: I have done my codexian duty by pledging.


side note:
the Kodexian Kickstarter Kommittee sure is making a killing on this one

 

[Charles-cgr]

Yesterday some space game raised like what.. 6 mil?

Crowdfunding is viable. You just have to do it right.

That's exactly what I was referring to when I said $1M budget to raise $6M. What I find sad is that doing it right shouldn't cost that much.

Henkel came up with a vague idea about top-down tactical role-playing in a less than typical setting with two proven industry veterans. He doesn't have the means to show what Star Citizen did, or even the Coles. I don't think that should overshadow the rest

I'm not reading much criticism for lack of ideas, but for lack of "things to show". Things that cost a lot of money, like art, mockups, or even 1 or 2 months of preparation.

Yes? That's what's going to happen. Nothing is for free in life, including crowdfunded budgets. If you want a lot of money, you're going to have to put in some time and effort. These studios regularly make pitch documents for publishers, but you're saying it's too much effort for them to make something like that for the crowd? In that case, fuck 'em.

And it is about ideas too. Not a lack of ideas, but a finalization and presentation of ideas. This Kickstarter pitch is simply too vague on too many things. It'll have card game concepts! Ok, what does that mean? I want to do stuff to innovate the old P&P-inspired cRPG mechanics? Ok, but WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Are you really saying it's unreasonable for people to ask for a pitch to be more than "a handful of cool ideas" when you're asking for $1 million?

They have a "handful of cool ideas" and a killer resume. This isn't about Antharion (which didn't reach $15K) but about a project with BaK and RoA for a foundation. Something people here have been fantasizing about for over a decade, and now that it is here, everything seems to be about putting them at fault. So if they don't have $50K to invest in their KS (that is more or less what it would take to meet expectations I'm reading here), it is OK for them to give up before even trying? If the question had been asked in those terms a week ago it would have gotten everyone in a frenzy.

 

[tuluse]

You think it would take 50k to hire an artist to paint 3-5 concept art pieces and spend a month coming up with some solid lore and mechanics they can point to? Because I think that should take like 5k, and is entirely reasonable when asking for a million bucks.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't think you can compare these two situations, Obsidian is a proven developer that has made RPGs (or at least RPG-like substance).

Exactly. If you are not already in the business good fucking luck getting in.

but it at least shows they know how to program and produce an RPG.

It shows absolutely nothing. It wasn't an RPG by any stretch of the definition and it was programmed like shit.

Yesterday some space game raised like what.. 6 mil?

"Some space game" that had a huge campaign behind it and which likely got most if its money from graphic whores. Yeah, the model is certainly viable.

 

[Charles-cgr]

You think it would take 50k to hire an artist to paint 3-5 concept art pieces and spend a month coming up with some solid lore and mechanics they can point to? Because I think that should take like 5k, and is entirely reasonable when asking for a million bucks.

Depends what you mean by that. If you mean showing them on screen then that would be what took Inxile 5 months to show with a full team. If you mean just words then it is arguably pretty much what they already have.

 

[skuphundaku]

I don't think you can compare these two situations, Obsidian is a proven developer that has made RPGs (or at least RPG-like substance).

Exactly. If you are not already in the business good fucking luck getting in.

Tell that to all the successful indie game developers out there. If these guys can't be assed to do anything but some anime napkin drawings and expect to get all the money upfront before they even start doing some serious pre-production, then fuck these losers. Just your name and 15 years old games, and nothing ever since, is not going to cut it. How do you want donors to take your project seriously if you don't take it seriously? Those successful indies poured a lot of effort, time and money into their games in order to make them successful. By saying that you need to be in the business in order to be successful is flat out insulting towards those indie devs.

 

[Charles-cgr]

I don't think you can compare these two situations, Obsidian is a proven developer that has made RPGs (or at least RPG-like substance).

Exactly. If you are not already in the business good fucking luck getting in.

Tell that to all the successful indie game developers out there. If these guys can't be assed to do anything but some anime napkin drawings and expect to get all the money upfront before they even start doing some serious pre-production, then fuck these losers. Just your name and 15 years old games, and nothing ever since, is not going to cut it. How do you want donors to take your project seriously if you don't take it seriously? Those successful indies poured a lot of effort, time and money into their games in order to make them successful. By saying that you need to be in the business in order to be successful is flat out insulting towards those indie devs.

I entirely agree with you. Indie devs have to pay their dues and no one is questioning that. And hats off to those that did from me, who is still looking for that breach. I sure am not going to question that it isn't easy.

It just isn't the subject at hand. We're talking about people with a resume that presumably went through that process once already (more or less, things having changed a bit since).

 

[villain of the story]

Guido Henkel, if you are reading this, here is a 9-step programme to your salvation that you should follow before relaunching your KS pitch:

(1) Use every social network and game forum to spread a rumour about a new ROA game coming back under different aliases for a couple of months
(2) Arrange more retrospective interviews and say you would indeed like to make a new ROA game
(3) Do Let's Play videos for ROA series with developer commentary regarding history behind various aspects of the games
(4) Finally disclose that you can't make another ROA for whatever reason. Keep repeating "publishers won't let me do it"
(5) Follow that with a follow-up, saying you might be able to make a spiritual successor
(6) Spread rumours of this spiritual successor using those aliases
(7) Do interviews about what a spiritual successor would be like
(8) Announce upcoming KS launch
(9) And FFS, do a proper pitch this time. Repeat a couple of times there are no longer games with ROA's depth of details, that publishers won't fund such a game, that you are getting old, will probably get cancer and die before you can make another similar game and talk about key points of design for your next game

And fail again. Fail better.

R00FLES!

 

[zeitgeist]

If you mean just words then it is arguably pretty much what they already have.

Try this: take your favorite RPG. Take 20 minutes to describe its gameplay mechanics in as much detail as possible. Then see if their entire Kickstarter pitch is more or less informative than the result.

 

[Smejki]

Me might argue about that. The main difference is that MCA('s studio) made many games since PS:T, unlike Guido. His experience is so old that it lost any relevancy in my eyes, unlike MCA.

Fascinating. Newfags gonna newfag.

Also: HURR DURR HE MADE MOBILE GAMES THAT MEANS HE SUCKS LOLOL.

It doesn't mean he sucks. It means I am not pledging for I see nothing which makes me interested. It is all covered in fog and I am not used to throw money in fog hoping a pot of gold will jump back at me.

I might be newfag but I read Codex for some 4 years.. roughly since I co-admin biggest Czech(and Slovak) Fallout fansite (in case you calculate year 2008 and try accusing me of being popamole-modern-shit lover, we keep Fallout 3 among "similar/related games")