Information Thorvalla Kickstarter goes online

[Wyrmlord]

First ever Kickstarter for which I pledged.

Even though I know it has a long shot at ever reaching its funding target.

 

[mbpopolano24]

I pledge for real, it is not about the money - or the game - more about the idea of seeing a massive surge of 'good RPGs' (I know, I know, nobody agrees on what a good RPG actually should be) in the near future.

I did not even mind the weak video and start of this project. But did you guys read the official response offered? If I'd had doubt before, I am now perfectly convinced that they have no fucking idea of what to do with the money. Sorry, but they have to put their shit together. Reading their response is just painful....

 

[Esquilax]

First ever Kickstarter for which I pledged.

Even though I know it has a long shot at ever reaching its funding target.

After so many, this is your very first? Fuck, Indians are cheap.

Yeah, it's a shame this won't make it. No matter whether it's publishers or Kickstarter, marketing matters. You have to make people believe in your shit. For all the bullshit that marketing brings, people want to be seduced, otherwise they won't want your product.

 

[Brother None]

I did not even mind the weak video and start of this project. But did you guys read the official response offered? If I'd had doubt before, I am now perfectly convinced that they have no fucking idea of what to do with the money. Sorry, but they have to put their shit together. Reading their response is just painful....

Yip. It's not much of a structural criticism in the fact that I do trust Henkel's intentions and abilities and am fine personally with him just yakking it up and being honest, a cool dude with some neat ideas and the wherewithal and experience to pull this off.

But from a PR standpoint this is a catastrophe, and that update really didn't improve things. It really is crystal clear this is in the earliest stages of design and the truth is that's just not going to cut it. He needs to come up with something better, much further into its design stages, to have a serious chance, and even then I think one million is asking too much. If necessary reduce the scope of the project and offer a more realistic, smaller RPG with less ambitious goals. It's not like there's no way to downscale this stuff in quantity without hurting quality. It's also pretty clear to me he didn't ask for feedback from some people I'd hope he'd still have some contact with, like Fargo or Feargus, to set up a proper Kickstarter with good tiers. Just...not good.

Anyway yeah, since he clearly has nothing solid to offer I don't think he can salvage this. More hastily made updates and making stuff up as he goes along won't cut it. For a game he notes he's been wanting to make for ages, it really should have a much more solid design concept, and probably needs more art and assets to show.

 

[Sputnik]

It is sad indeed that this Kickstarter seems to be doomed to fail. What really was needed was some media visibility both before launching the project and especially now when the Kickstarter has begun. If I weren't reading Codex I would have no idea about Thorvalla. The Kickstarter launch should have been postponed by a month or two, and not only in order to get some media coverage beforehand, but also to prepare and revise the project description.

Now it really seems they do not know what they are doing: there's too many maybes regarding the essential stuff, and too much irrelevant and misleading things (come on, a card game that is definitely not a card game?).

In addition to that, postponing this Kickstarter to the next year would have given some breathing space between P:E and this for us backers. At least for me, having two major Kickstarters I would be willing to pledge a substantial sum for this close to each other is not exactly an optimal situation. Especially with Christmas (you know, buying presents and stuff) coming.

 

[Irxy]

Ok just pledged for this semi-racist dragon riding sim, and via PayPal because I cannot into kickstarter.

"1_Unwashed_Pariah appears, cleave it with your Aryan bronze axe y/n"

Not a very wise thing to do, considering this will most likely fail, and there is no guaranty there will be paypal returns.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Dead as a dodo if you ask me, and not hard to guess why.

As I wrote before, I didn't know who this Guido Henkel is until some weeks ago.

And I don't know what he does all week, how much money he earns etc. But I do think he could at least have invested 1-2 months prior to the kickstarter to prepare this pitch.

The whole presentation is quite lousy considering that it is asking for 1 million dollars. There are quite dumb mistakes, for example when he intended to say "we could reach more mature audiences" he forgot the "mature" so instead he said "we could reach more audiences". How about recording it a second time?

Or when they show a coffee stained pencil sketch for like half a minute, like it's a work made by Picasso. Well they must be really short of material right now.

Guido, whichlooks quite cool and nerdy in the video, explains that he has been thinking about Thorvalla for many many years. Perhaps he should think a little more?

 

[Zed]

The game's at 22k now, and it will probably stomp around that for a while until Guido makes a mercy killing.

Like basically everyone's saying, the KS was launched too early. If you absolutely can't get some work done prior to getting a million bucks (like concrete and better presented design and better artwork and concepts), then this funding model is not an option for you. If this is how developers were pitching projects to publishers in the 90s and 00s, it's no wonder the genre nearly died.

This reminds me of a group of people at my university who never had any fucking clue about IT and businesses, yet they always had flashy and simple presentations. Meanwhile, another group (and these guys were geniuses in comparison) always had like... bullet-point power-points and really boring presentations. Guess who didn't have to argue their points and got easy grades?
My point is that smart people sometimes has to dumb themselves down to the level of the general public to make themselves understood. Regardless of how strong the concept is, it will fail if the presentation isn't just as strong.

 

[Burning Bridges]

It is sad indeed that this Kickstarter seems to be doomed to fail. What really was needed was some media visibility both before launching the project and especially now when the Kickstarter has begun. If I weren't reading Codex I would have no idea about Thorvalla. The Kickstarter launch should have been postponed by a month or two, and not only in order to get some media coverage beforehand, but also to prepare and revise the project description.

Now it really seems they do not know what they are doing: there's too many maybes regarding the essential stuff, and too much irrelevant and misleading things (come on, a card game that is definitely not a card game?).

In addition to that, postponing this Kickstarter to the next year would have given some breathing space between P:E and this for us backers. At least for me, having two major Kickstarters I would be willing to pledge a substantial sum for this close to each other is not exactly an optimal situation. Especially with Christmas (you know, buying presents and stuff) coming.

Let me say again I have nothing against Guido Henkel or a new turn based RPG made by him. I am sure he is a cool nerd and his game would be really great.

But looking at this (and Shaker) I must say this is so incredibly ... unprofessional!!!

A guy sitting in front of a huge Mac with a stupid wallpaper, explaining for five minutes a game that he has been thinking over for many, many years, in the most generic terms. One or two cool ideas, two or three sketches and then the question, would you help us and provide 1 million dollar to make this reality.

Looking at this pitch, I ask myself, how much time this would take to prepare. One weekend, or rather two? Couldn't they prepare this a little more?

 

[Moribund]

This reminds me of a group of people at my university who never had any fucking clue about IT and businesses, yet they always had flashy and simple presentations. Meanwhile, another group (and these guys were geniuses in comparison) always had like... bullet-point power-points and really boring presentations. Guess who didn't have to argue their points and got easy grades?

I don't doubt this but I'd hoped people could look a little beyond the flash. Everything described sounds more flushed out than WL 2 or PE by far so it poleaxes me to think this is really so hard for people to imagine. You really have to have a picture to go with every detail, and some kind of "proof" I guess.

Or just a really big name. Lesson learned, I guess.

Also there's not a lot of art there but what is there is fantastic.

 

[Zed]

This reminds me of a group of people at my university who never had any fucking clue about IT and businesses, yet they always had flashy and simple presentations. Meanwhile, another group (and these guys were geniuses in comparison) always had like... bullet-point power-points and really boring presentations. Guess who didn't have to argue their points and got easy grades?

I don't doubt this but I'd hoped people could look a little beyond the flash. Everything described sounds more flushed out than WL 2 or PE by far so it poleaxes me to think this is really so hard for people to imagine. You really have to have a picture to go with every detail, and some kind of "proof" I guess.

Or just a really big name. Lesson learned, I guess.

Also there's not a lot of art there but what is there is fantastic.

The art on the KS is decent enough, but some of the pictures shown in the video is fucking shit to be honest.

Anyway, you're right. A big developer name could make things easier. So could the game's name. Imagine if this would have been "Realms of Arkanaia: Thorvalla".
It's a new game world and it has new game systems. You'll need to have better presentation if you move away from familiarity.

 

[Jarpie]

They really should've built interest for a full month or so before launching the Kickstarter and trying to get interviews etc done, and imo big difference between PE, WL2 and Thorvalla is that those two both projects had much more coherent "image" of what the game will be than Thorvalla and that makes a big difference whether people want to pledge or not.

 

[Zed]

The art on the KS is decent enough, but some of the pictures shown in the video is fucking shit to be honest.

Hmm. Actually that's not true. It was only this thing Semper posted early in the thread:

I mean seriously. That looks like ass.
The lensflare transitions are pretty bad as well.

 

[Rhuantavan]

Guys guys, not everything is so grim, and the project has barely started, so it could all turn around for the best. According to Guido, he has more content to release and perhaps with future updates and upcoming interviews this may succeed. Still I agree they should have taken more time to prepare the pitch - after all Neal is an indie filmmaker - he could have put his talents to good use and they could have hired an artist to produce compelling art to go with it.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I did not even mind the weak video and start of this project. But did you guys read the official response offered? If I'd had doubt before, I am now perfectly convinced that they have no fucking idea of what to do with the money. Sorry, but they have to put their shit together. Reading their response is just painful....

Yip. It's not much of a structural criticism in the fact that I do trust Henkel's intentions and abilities and am fine personally with him just yakking it up and being honest, a cool dude with some neat ideas and the wherewithal and experience to pull this off.

But from a PR standpoint this is a catastrophe, and that update really didn't improve things. It really is crystal clear this is in the earliest stages of design and the truth is that's just not going to cut it. He needs to come up with something better, much further into its design stages, to have a serious chance, and even then I think one million is asking too much. If necessary reduce the scope of the project and offer a more realistic, smaller RPG with less ambitious goals. It's not like there's no way to downscale this stuff in quantity without hurting quality. It's also pretty clear to me he didn't ask for feedback from some people I'd hope he'd still have some contact with, like Fargo or Feargus, to set up a proper Kickstarter with good tiers. Just...not good.

Anyway yeah, since he clearly has nothing solid to offer I don't think he can salvage this. More hastily made updates and making stuff up as he goes along won't cut it. For a game he notes he's been wanting to make for ages, it really should have a much more solid design concept, and probably needs more art and assets to show.

He has pretty much less than one month to now come up with a solid design concept.

But once he does so (if he does so), he may have about 48 to 72 hours to showcase it and get the funding. Like 25-27 days to make something really compelling and then 2-4 days to present it and get the funding.

If in that tiny timespan, he brings something so compelling that it gets him the whole million, it will be a story to tell for ages. Which is why, as you say, it's a stretch if it is ever going to happen.

 

[Hobo Elf]

The Thorvalla concept art is like vomit to my eyes. The worst kind of pseudo-anime there is.

Among them is Art Director, Thu-Lieu Pham, whose credits include games such as Heroes of Might & Magic 2, and others.

Wish they'd specify what exactly his involvement with HoMM2 was, because none of the art I'm seeing looks like it could capture any kind of magical feel that HoMM2 did. I know it's just concept art and not what the actual game looks like, but it's all they got going for them at the moment and oh man does it looks terrible.

 

[Moribund]

The art on the KS is decent enough, but some of the pictures shown in the video is fucking shit to be honest.

Hmm. Actually that's not true. It was only this thing Semper posted early in the thread:

I mean seriously. That looks like ass.
The lensflare transitions are pretty bad as well.

Everyone can have an opinion, but yours is wrong. Great detail there. Not crazy about the anime oversized eyes but how is any art from PE KS as good as this? Now that was truly ass.

 

[Burning Bridges]

I just saw there is Update number 1

We will start putting out materials and more details as soon as we think they are suitable to be seen by a wider audience, and that they truly reflect ideas we are seriously considering. I feel strongly that especially at this, the funding stage, it is crucial not to send the wrong signals. Naturally, it is also important to satisfy the hunger for information, so we will try to balance it all nicely to keep everyone happy. If all else fails, you can always bank on our extensive experience and the knowledge that we are dedicated to creating a high quality and polished product, and that we have the track record to prove that we can do it.

wider audience? feel strongly that it is crucial not to send wrong signals?

Huh? What the fuck? I want information, not this crap. Do they really believe more people will open their wallets if they just stay as vague as possible? It's not working that way!!

Perhaps they should have asked for 25,000$ for preparing the kickstarter pitch for a new, upcoming RPG idea Thorvalla. That might have worked better.

I think if it goes on like this, they should really cancel the kickstarter and redo it, before more people see it. Because I really like this idea, but in this style it's really going to be - as someone said before - Der Größte Fail Aller Zeiten!

 

[Brother None]

Guys guys, not everything is so grim, and the project has barely started, so it could all turn around for the best. According to Guido, he has more content to release and perhaps with future updates and upcoming interviews this may succeed. Still I agree they should have taken more time to prepare the pitch - after all Neal is an indie filmmaker - he could have put his talents to good use and they could have hired an artist to produce compelling art to go with it.

Exceedingly unlikely. For reasons Wyrmlord cites above. If he has great concepts and more completed works and ideas to show, he should've shown them already. His pitch and first update show he is in very early stages of pre-production, so all we can expect is more hurried updates of a work-in-progress. That is not going to cut it, as a campaign.

Among them is Art Director, Thu-Lieu Pham, whose credits include games such as Heroes of Might & Magic 2, and others.

Wish they'd specify what exactly his involvement with HoMM2 was, because none of the art I'm seeing looks like it could capture any kind of magical feel that HoMM2 did. I know it's just concept art and not what the actual game looks like, but it's all they got going for them at the moment and oh man does it looks terrible.

This made me lift an eyebrow too. I googled Thu-Lieu Pham right after the Kickstarter went up and can't find any much of any mention of her work anywhere, except that she's Guido Henkel's wife who was an inspiration for his books. Her only credits on Mobygames are for HoMM2, a decade ago. Not exactly a good name to try and push your Kickstarter with. I'm sure she's good at her job, but that's not a lot of credentials, and the marriage connection makes it a little more curious (nothing wrong with husband-wife teams, but this is not much of a proven team).

 

[Burning Bridges]

Exceedingly unlikely. For reasons Wyrmlord cites above. If he has great concepts and more completed works and ideas to show, he should've shown them already. His pitch and first update show he is in very early stages of pre-production, so all we can expect is more hurried updates of a work-in-progress. That is not going to cut it, as a campaign.

Exactly like Shaker, just without the 200,000$ on Day 1.

 

[Charles-cgr]

I think what they could do with $1M is much more important than what they can do with $200 of personal savings. That is what crowdfunding is about. Not giving $6M to projects that had $1M just to fund their crowdfunding pitch. So sad.

 

[UnusuallyRuthless]

In various statements I pointed out that we have not yet decided whether we will use an isometric view, a perspectively corrected 2.5D or a full 3D approach.

This again. What does this mean? Googling "perspectively corrected 2.5D" gives you this sentence and this sentence only.

I feel strongly that especially at this, the funding stage, it is crucial not to send the wrong signals.

The only worse thing you could do is send no signals at all. Oh wait.

I think what they could do with $1M is much more important than what they can do with $200 of personal savings. That is what crowdfunding is about. Not giving $6M to projects that had $1M just to fund their crowdfunding pitch. So sad.

What they can do with $200 is much more important than what they can do with $1M. If they can come up with some pretty great ideas for $200, then I'd love to see what they can do with $1M. If they can't come up with anything for $200, who's to say they'll come up with anything for $400, $800,... $1M?

 

[tuluse]

I think what they could do with $1M is much more important than what they can do with $200 of personal savings. That is what crowdfunding is about. Not giving $6M to projects that had $1M just to fund their crowdfunding pitch. So sad.

Here I thought crowdfunding was about a chance to have ideas that publishers won't touch made into games, not just throwing money at people because they say they want to make an rpg.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I kinda have to agree with Charles-cgr. All this dream of tens of thousands of people wishing for RPGs might just be a dream. Kickstarter is really just a way to get cheap games (games that are almost sure to be made, so from established companies) for most people.

Here I thought crowdfunding was about a chance to have ideas that publishers won't touch made into games, not just throwing money at people because they say they want to make an rpg.

And how do you want them to make the game?
Publishers don't like your pitch -> you don't make the game
"The people" don't like your pitch -> you don't make the game

Fucking big difference. This shit's gonna die as suddenly as it appeared.

 

[Charles-cgr]

I think what they could do with $1M is much more important than what they can do with $200 of personal savings. That is what crowdfunding is about. Not giving $6M to projects that had $1M just to fund their crowdfunding pitch. So sad.

Here I thought crowdfunding was about a chance to have ideas that publishers won't touch made into games, not just throwing money at people because they say they want to make an rpg.

Reread the threads about this prior to the KS launch and sense the before / after effect. It's appalling. Pierre Begue should read this too. Food for thought.

EDIT - This is where I went ad hominem. My bad.