Interview Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky on The Outer Worlds at PC Gamer

[Black Angel]

Fallout 1&2 have no dialog tags whatsoever. Instead, dialogue options appears based on whether or not your character have sufficient skills, and the game is far, FAR better thanks to it.

 

[Quillon]

Fallout 1&2 have no dialog tags whatsoever. Instead, dialogue options appears based on whether or not your character have sufficient skills, and the game is far, FAR better thanks to it.

If only the people who made Fallout were directing this... right? :D

 

[Black Angel]

Fallout 1&2 have no dialog tags whatsoever. Instead, dialogue options appears based on whether or not your character have sufficient skills, and the game is far, FAR better thanks to it.

If only the people who made Fallout were directing this... right? :D

Yeap, that's why I call upon seeing dialog tags in TOW's demo

 

[Quillon]

Fallout 1&2 have no dialog tags whatsoever. Instead, dialogue options appears based on whether or not your character have sufficient skills, and the game is far, FAR better thanks to it.

If only the people who made Fallout were directing this... right? :D

Yeap, that's why I call upon seeing dialog tags in TOW's demo

They think its better to have dialog tags after years of experience between then and now and when you say "dialogue was better without tags in Fallout" its more probable that it is nostalgia speaking with the fact that they were also responsible for it. Just my thinking. Ofc you could say its your personal preference etc.

Anyway, they'll most certainly add options to hide them like they did with PoEs and Tyranny(?), why make a fuss about it...

 

[Black Angel]

They think its better to have dialog tags after years of experience between then and now and when you say "dialogue was better without tags in Fallout" its more probable that it is nostalgia speaking with the fact that they were also responsible for it. Just my thinking. Ofc you could say its your personal preference etc.

Really, nigga? Nostalgia argument?

It isn't nostalgia if I can boot up the game right now and experience it for myself. In fact, not too long ago I've finished my nth playthrough of Fallout 1&2 consecutively for each game, and my point (and Kit Walker's) still stand; no dialog tags are fine as long as the writing is good. It raises a question as to why Cainarsky decided it would be better to have dialog tags this time around, after both Fallout and Arcanum had none and they are fine game. Oh right, they wanted to streamline the experience for those who can't carefully read and understand what each dialog options really means and what kind of consequences would occur should they chose one, that's why.
Although, I can't exactly remember if Bloodlines had dialog tags, but the game uniquely wrote skill-checks dialogues in unique fonts and color, and I'm certain that game doesn't show you greyed out dialog options like TOW planned to.

Anyway, they'll most certainly add options to hide them like they did with PoEs and Tyranny(?), why make a fuss about it...

Haven't tried those games, so I couldn't care less about it. None of those had the magic touch of Cainarsky like Fallout and Arcanum.

 

[Quillon]

It isn't nostalgia if I can boot up the game right now and experience it for myself

Really, nigga it doesn't matter how recently you've played them what matters is you've prolly experienced them as your key/first gaming experiences years ago and you are still under the spell powa of nostalgia, codex is riddled with it.

Haven't tried those games, so I couldn't care less about it. None of those had the magic touch of Cainarsky like Fallout and Arcanum.

The point is those Obsidian games had options to hide such things as dialogue tags, not that if you've played or liked them.

 

[Bohr]

They think its better to have dialog tags after years of experience between then and now

'Better' in terms of making a better game or in terms of appealing to a broader audience? Guess we'll find out soon...

 

[Wesp5]

Although, I can't exactly remember if Bloodlines had dialog tags, but the game uniquely wrote skill-checks dialogues in unique fonts and color, and I'm certain that game doesn't show you greyed out dialog options like TOW planned to.

Indeed Bloodlines has skill-checks indicated by font and color and this works much better for immersion than simple tags, like Seduction lines were curvy and pink ! Also there were never greyed out lines, btw. did those in the demo show the actual number you need?

 

[Black Angel]

Really, nigga it doesn't matter how recently you've played them what matters is you've prolly experienced them as your key/first gaming experiences years ago and you are still under the spell powa of nostalgia, codex is riddled with it.

As a fellow newfag, I'm ashamed to see your newfaggotry.

The point is those Obsidian games had options to hide such things as dialogue tags, not that if you've played or liked them.

And now I ask, what's the point of dialog tags anyway? Replayability? Because any RPGs worth their salt would be VERY replayable without the need for dialog tags. You also don't have any counter arguments against Kit Walker's point:

Writing tag-free dialogue is not about skill checks or metagaming. It is about the writing itself. If the dialogue can not convey what the character is trying to attempt, then no amount of tags or metagames or whatnot is actually improving/harming the game, but rather the writing is doing that. Consider Mass Effect Renegade option where you think Shepard is going to say on the dialogue wheel "No, I reject this offer out of principle" but in-game beats the questioner up. This is, of course, the extreme example. But it communicates the idea. The "intimidate" skill target dialogue should sound intimidating or the diplomatic option should sound mollifying. Then if you include the tag or not, the game automatically provides a way to understand what the character is doing. Even better if the game has Alpha protocol like dossier, where you *learn* from the world what a character likes to hear and then talk that way. AP had tags, remove them and you lose nothing because you can guess from the dialogue (good writing right there!) what the attitude is going to be for the speaker.

Indeed Bloodlines has skill-checks indicated by font and color and this works much better for immersion than simple tags, like Seduction lines were curvy and pink ! Also there were never greyed out lines, btw. did those in the demo show the actual number you need?

Yeah, I'd rather them have different color and font to indicate a skill check instead of tags.

As for the actual numbers being seen in the demo, seems like they want to do the same thing that New Vegas did: show the actual numbers needed to bypass the checks. They kind of confirm it by saying that you can "see a skill check in dialog, realize you don't have sufficient skill, go back to get a companion/train the skill/take drugs, then pass the check" or something along those lines as can be seen in the most recent interview.

 

[Quillon]

And now I ask, what's the point of dialog tags anyway? Replayability? Because any RPGs worth their salt would be VERY replayable without the need for dialog tags. You also don't have any counter arguments against Kit Walker's point:

I think its better to know unqualified skill checks, it shows you that you'll have different options if you play with a different character(other than going back and improving those skills to pass that check in the same playhtough) other than that I don't have a strong opinion whether they are needed or not, I don't have a problem with playing with tags on but there is an option to turn them off anyway. Why is it such a big deal for a game to have some subtle feature that you can opt out of?

 

[Black Angel]

I think its better to know unqualified skill checks, it shows you that you'll have different options if you play with a different character(other than going back and improving those skills to pass that check in the same playhtough)

Except the very existence of these skills during character creation should immediately shows you that you WILL have different options if you choose to invest in different skills.

Once again, what's the point of dialog tags?

 

[Safav Hamon]

Deadfire uses a combination of five types of skill checks.

Untagged skill checks that only show up if you meet the requirements, tagged skill checks that only show up if you meet the requirements, tagged skill checks that are greyed out unless you meet the requirements, tagged skill checks that don't show you the requirements, and skill checks that hide the dialogue option unless the (hidden) requirements are met.

I don't understand the thought process on why they used which skill checks for what.

Spoiler

 

[Quillon]

I think its better to know unqualified skill checks, it shows you that you'll have different options if you play with a different character(other than going back and improving those skills to pass that check in the same playhtough)

Except the very existence of these skills during character creation should immediately shows you that you WILL have different options if you choose to invest in different skills.

Once again, what's the point of dialog tags?

Yeah sure, like the games out there are using every skill in dialogue(or environment) checks including Cainarsky games. f.i. New Vegas could easily have not used medical skill checks that often like they didn't use most other skills in dialogue. We're not playing perfect games.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't see the metagaming critique against showing greyed-out options in dialogue. Sure, I could see that a check requires Persuasion and reload before it to put points in the skill. But then in the next dialogue where there's a skill-gated option that is not Persuasion, I can't do that, because my points have been commited already.

I don't see the metagaming critique in NOT having those options show up. How the fuck when you see them so you certainly know there is something there that you can profit from is not metagaming? But when you don't know they're there it's metagaming because you reload just to see if it's something there? What the fuck? Oh right, like I said, if the metagaming is built-in then you don't consider it metagaming. Fucking lol.

Also lol at "because my points have been commited already." in a game with free respeccing. It's going to be literally Quickload: The Game.

 

[Prime Junta]

ITT the Codex rages about casualisation and metagaming

then goes back to resting after each fight in Baldur's Gate

 

[Black Angel]

Yeah sure, like the games out there are using every skill in dialogue(or environment) checks including Cainarsky games.

Don't be such a newfag and goes on to argue based on extreme, i.e "EVERY skill". And again, Cainarsky games such Fallout and Arcanum had dialogue options appears and disappears based on having sufficient skills or not, and they worked. Why would they want to go with dialog tags, again?

 

[Quillon]

Why would they want to go with dialog tags, again?

Do you want me to tag my answer to this so that could notice it and won't ask the same question over and over again like a fucking retard?

[MY ANSWER]I don't have a strong opinion whether they are needed or not, I don't have a problem with playing with tags on but there is an option to turn them off anyway.

There. Guess tags are needed then.

[MY QUESTION TO YOU]Why is it such a big deal for a game to have some subtle feature that you can opt out of?

 

[Bohr]

but there is an option to turn them off anyway.

Haven't followed all the news on this game, but is this confirmed or is this speculation based on other Obs games?

 

[Wunderbar]

ITT the Codex rages about casualisation and metagaming
then goes back to resting after each fight in Baldur's Gate

resting after fight is not metagaming, it makes sense to rest after you killed someone.

 

[Black Angel]

[MY ANSWER]I don't have a strong opinion whether they are needed or not, I don't have a problem with playing with tags on but there is an option to turn them off anyway.

There. Guess tags are needed then.

If you don't have strong opinion, don't participate in the arguments in the first place.

[MY QUESTION TO YOU]Why is it such a big deal for a game to have some subtle feature that you can opt out of?

You're answering a question with another question, newfag.

 

[Quillon]

If you don't have strong opinion, don't participate in the arguments in the first place.

I have a strong opinion that its not an important issue :D

You're answering a question with another question, newfag.

Nope, I answered your question and asked you a new one which you haven't answered yet.

Anyway, good luck collecting such old-skool much hardcore points, I'm sure oldfags are about to invite you to their zekret club.

but there is an option to turn them off anyway.

Haven't followed all the news on this game, but is this confirmed or is this speculation based on other Obs games?

Speculation.

 

[Black Angel]

Nope, I answered your question and asked you a new one which you haven't answered yet.

You haven't answered anything. I made it easier for you by ignoring nonarguments you've made like you not having strong opinion or you answering my question with another question.

Let's start off from scratch. What benefits there is that dialog tags can provide to RPG experience?
In fact, let me add another question. What other RPGs worth their salt that have dialog tags in them? Do you think you can play those RPGs without dialog tags at all?

 

[Bohr]

Well residual Cain/Boyarsky fanboyism means I'm stubbornly retaining an interest in this game despite some warning signs. But if there is indeed an option to turn these tags and unavailable options off, which is unclear at this point, I hope it's not another case of "But you can turn the quest markers off!" where the designers rely too heavily on them to convey relevant information.

 

[Black Angel]

To be honest, I'm still looking forward, if only much less compared to other games. 'Cause who knows? Perhaps they can show that they've still got it since it's a combination of two talents. They might rise with this; either show us a bright future ahead, or at the very least a last spark of brilliance before Micro$oft's company culture take over and assimilate them. Or perhaps they can show us that their time is finally done for good, and we're left with the likes of ITS, StygSoft, OwlCat, and many, many more.

You know what would actually convince me to get hyped for real? If Jason Anderson is there with them. The trio were in it together in the days of Fallout, Arcanum, and Bloodlines, after all.

 

[Deadass]

anderson is still at turtle rock studios doing nothing