Interview Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky on The Outer Worlds at PC Gamer

[Quillon]

Nope, I answered your question and asked you a new one which you haven't answered yet.

You haven't answered anything. I made it easier for you by ignoring nonarguments you've made like you not having strong opinion or you answering my question with another question.

Let's start off from scratch. What benefits there is that dialog tags can provide to RPG experience?
In fact, let me add another question. What other RPGs worth their salt that have dialog tags in them?

It's a non-issue for me since a) I don't have a problem with them & they are the fucking last thing I'd be concerned about this game...but anyway b) I believe they'll be optional c) It doesn't seem there are many tags in TOW anyway, from the gameplay vid; I only saw for dumb dialogue and skill checks, as opposed to PoE games where nearly everything is tagged and frankly sometimes they are needed; like differentiating if something should be honest or stoic, that is if you care about dispositions in the game that you collect and get reactivity for them later. I think the idea is good but execution lacked(in reactivity frequency & quality), in both games.

Tags being optional is speculation atm but I speculated for lots of trivial stuff that I thought were no-brainers to be in the game for Deadfire while many kept being skeptical, in the end...I don't remember a single "speculation" that I was wrong about atm

 

[Roguey]

'Better' in terms of making a better game or in terms of appealing to a broader audience? Guess we'll find out soon...

The Shadowrun Returns series, Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny, and Tides of Numenera all showed tags. I don't believe any of them were made worse for it (and you can disable them in all the Obsidian games).

Except the very existence of these skills during character creation should immediately shows you that you WILL have different options if you choose to invest in different skills.

Once again, what's the point of dialog tags?

You have no idea how often those skills will be checked during the game itself, so investing in something a little out of the ordinary is taking a risk in gimping yourself (e.g. Fallout, all those etiquettes in the Shadowruns). Seeing unqualified checks allows you to make more informed choices during replays.

 

[HoboForEternity]

ITT the Codex rages about casualisation and metagaming

then goes back to resting after each fight in Baldur's Gate

that's how iwent trough the caverns with alot of mind flayers

 

[Black Angel]

You have no idea how often those skills will be checked during the game itself, so investing in something a little out of the ordinary is taking a risk in gimping yourself (e.g. Fallout, all those etiquettes in the Shadowruns). Seeing unqualified checks allows you to make more informed choices during replays.

Sounds like you just want to metagame.

 

[Wesp5]

Yeah, I'd rather them have different color and font to indicate a skill check instead of tags.

Me too. I don't like to see such infos or numbers inside of the game reminding me that it is indeed a game! Bloodlines has damage floaters, but you can turn them off...

As for the actual numbers being seen in the demo, seems like they want to do the same thing that New Vegas did: show the actual numbers needed to bypass the checks.

I don't like that. With the exact numbers you can indeed do a lot of metagaming! If they were just greyed out you'd only know you need improvements but not to what value exactly.

 

[Roguey]

Sounds like you just want to metagame.

It is impossible not to metagame on a replay. You already know what the content is like and you'll be making decisions based on that and what you did previously.

 

[Black Angel]

Sounds like you just want to metagame.

It is impossible not to metagame on a replay. You already know what the content is like and you'll be making decisions based on that and what you did previously.

So, you basically play an exact same character build archetype as the previous playthrough, instead of enjoying what the game has to offer as is and play completely different build archetype? Simply to, this time, get the Best Outcome and Experience™?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Fallout 1&2 have no dialog tags whatsoever. Instead, dialogue options appears based on whether or not your character have sufficient skills, and the game is far, FAR better thanks to it.

On the other hand, Fallout sort of created dialogue tags with the empathy perk.

Yeah, I'd rather them have different color and font to indicate a skill check instead of tags.

This is a distinction without a difference.

Can we not pretend like any of this is a mystery? Tags and greyed out dialogue are there to make the game more accessible to a mass audience so they can sell millions of copies.

 

[commie]

What exactly is the problem here? What's the difference between seeing the threshold of a dialogue option appearing and reloading and adding speech points before each encounter in order to see if a new dialogue option pops up? Metagamers, gonna metagame regardless, and the rest will just accept that they do or don't have the prerequisites and move on...you know PLAYING the game.

Maybe they'll also return to the game another time and create a diplo build, which is what you would most likely do in the first place if you want to explore the dialogue trees in a game which has c&c as a selling point?

 

[nihil]

One reason we show when you're close is you could always take a drug that improved that skill.

If I read it correctly, they're saying that an option is visible when you're close to meeting the requirement, but not otherwise. That sounds like a reasonable compromise. Doesn't spoil every option on the first playthrough, but keeps you from just missing something your current build aims to do.

I'm a bit disappointed to see it has the quest compass, though. I hope you can disable it and that quests are designed to be beatable without it.

 

[Wesp5]

If I read it correctly, they're saying that an option is visible when you're close to meeting the requirement, but not otherwise. That sounds like a reasonable compromise.

I agree with that. If you can raise your stats inside the conversation without it being to obvious , it would be like you have the feeling you could go as specific road...

 

[Diggfinger]

anderson is still at turtle rock studios doing nothing

He's been working on smaller VR-games lately. Nice break from massive titles.

 

[Roguey]

So, you basically play an exact same character build archetype as the previous playthrough, instead of enjoying what the game has to offer as is and play completely different build archetype? Simply to, this time, get the Best Outcome and Experience™?

I don't know how you got that from what I said.

 

[Trashos]

I just wanted to say that I love metagaming.

Carry on.

 

[Quillon]

I just wanted to say shananananananana knees knees.

Carry on.

 

[Black Angel]

On the other hand, Fallout sort of created dialogue tags with the empathy perk.

Except you need to sacrifice a precious perk point to get it, unless you're playing Fallout of Nevada where you can get it for free, and even that is available well into mid-late game.
Also, Empathy works by marking already existing dialogue options. It doesn't tell you if you'll succeed or fail the check, nor does it show you dialogue options not meant for your character in greyed-out manner.

This is a distinction without a difference.

Maybe, but at least Bloodlines didn't give away dialogue checks that your character don't have the skill for in greyed-out manner.

Can we not pretend like any of this is a mystery? Tags and greyed out dialogue are there to make the game more accessible to a mass audience so they can sell millions of copies.

I didn't pretend it was a mystery. It's just that it disappoint me to know in advance that the mystery and magic of this game as an RPG will be lost because the game outright tells me what the options are for even characters not build for them. Still, it seems like they specified that the greyed out dialogue options only appears if the relevant skill is 'close' to them, so I guess that's rather acceptable compromise.

So, you basically play an exact same character build archetype as the previous playthrough, instead of enjoying what the game has to offer as is and play completely different build archetype? Simply to, this time, get the Best Outcome and Experience™?

I don't know how you got that from what I said.

Except the very existence of these skills during character creation should immediately shows you that you WILL have different options if you choose to invest in different skills.

Once again, what's the point of dialog tags?

You have no idea how often those skills will be checked during the game itself, so investing in something a little out of the ordinary is taking a risk in gimping yourself (e.g. Fallout, all those etiquettes in the Shadowruns). Seeing unqualified checks allows you to make more informed choices during replays.

Sounds like you just want to metagame.

It is impossible not to "metagame" on a replay. You already know what the content is like and you'll be making decisions based on that and what you did previously.

It baffles me how some seemingly normal thing to do now counts as 'metagaming' these days. Before, some dumbfucks proclaimed that simply reloading after dying in combat encounters counts as 'metagaming', and now you claim that making decisions based on the what we did and experience in previous playthrough also counts as 'metagaming'.

Like I said, simply taking a glance at character creation screen should be enough to give anyone with decent amount of brain cells that the game will offer very different experience for very different character builds and archetype. So does simply experiencing the game once, like you just said, but equating that with 'metagaming' and then using that logic to okay-ing dialogue tags and greyed-out dialogue options is just dumb.

 

[Roguey]

now you claim that making decisions based on the what we did and experience in previous playthrough also counts as 'metagaming'.

Yes, it is. Metagaming is making use of any knowledge your character doesn't have.

Like I said, simply taking a glance at character creation screen should be enough to give anyone with decent amount of brain cells that the game will offer very different experience for very different character builds and archetype.

Then you find out that taking intimidate was a waste because it's hardly ever used.

 

[Black Angel]

Yes, it is. Metagaming is making use of any knowledge your character doesn't have.

Okay, but I think it's enough to do just that. Having dialog tags and greyed-out dialogue lines are overkill.

Then you find out that taking intimidate was a waste because it's hardly ever used.

Blame the devs for not implementing enough content that would accommodate that kind of playstyle, not the lack of dialog tags and greyed-out dialogue lines.

 

[Roguey]

Blame the devs for not implementing enough content that would accommodate that kind of playstyle, not the lack of dialog tags and greyed-out dialogue lines.

This doesn't help anyone from making a poorly-supported character, at least not without waiting until there's a Torment-style "put all your points into wisdom, intelligence, and charisma, don't bother with strength, dexterity, and constitution" meme.

 

[Black Angel]

This doesn't help retards from making a poorly-supported character, at least not without waiting until there's a Torment-style "put all your points into wisdom, intelligence, and charisma, don't bother with strength, dexterity, and constitution" meme.

FTFY

 

[Prime Junta]

This doesn't help retards from making a poorly-supported character, at least not without waiting until there's a Torment-style "put all your points into wisdom, intelligence, and charisma, don't bother with strength, dexterity, and constitution" meme.

FTFY

Not knowing that Intimidation is poorly supported before starting your first playthrough does not make you a retard, retard.

 

[Black Angel]

Not knowing that Intimidation is poorly supported before starting your first playthrough does not make you a retard, retard.

Read again my post that Roguey quoted, dumbfuck

Blame the devs for not implementing enough content that would accommodate that kind of playstyle, not the lack of dialog tags and greyed-out dialogue lines.

Now, if dialog tags and greyed-out dialogue lines was supposed to let players know Intimidation is poorly supported, then why the fuck have Intimidation in the first place?

 

[Black Angel]

Prime Junta don't give me that retadred rating. Roguey insinuates that dialogue tags and greyed-out lines are meant to help players from making characters with poorly-supported skills, so real questions here. Why did the poorly-supported skills existed in the first place? Or why is it poorly-supported? Don't you think there are better solution to that?

 

[Egosphere]

Sounds like you just want to metagame.

It is impossible not to metagame on a replay. You already know what the content is like and you'll be making decisions based on that and what you did previously.

It is if the c&c is radically different. I wouldn't know what skills to upgrade if I replayed AoD as a merchant after playing as an assassin.

 

[Goral]

Speaking of AoD... I wish games forced you to level up, spend your points, and see where that takes you.

Having the option to store skill points and use them for later is still better than having the option of resetting your stats completely (like in Titan Quest or Diinity Original Sin 2). And RPGs that force you to spend points are very rare so I guess most devs take it for granted.